• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Endogenous retroviruses

Alternate Carpark

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2004
3,783
113
msn
✟4,459.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Private
PhantomLlama, if Ark Guy is a person then he must have had a huge impact in your life to now classify people as Ark guys. Or is classifying people your way of coping with reality.
I mean *giggles* I make one post and I am instantly classified as particular type of person. You have me sussed already YAY !


Hmm..okay..Data, excuse the questions but this topic is very interesting.

1: So is there validated data that shows that this viral footprint is different between humans and monkeys ?
2: Is there validated data showing the same footprint between humans and the ancestor, and if there is what is the ancestor ?
 
Upvote 0

PhantomLlama

Prism Ranger
Feb 25, 2003
1,813
60
38
Birmingham
Visit site
✟24,758.00
Faith
Atheist
Alternate Carpark said:
PhantomLlama, if Ark Guy is a person then he must have had a huge impact in your life to now classify people as Ark guys. Or is classifying people your way of coping with reality.
Nah, he was just famously agressive. I have however come to the conclusion that most creationists (and possibly all forumgoers) can be classified into one of a few types. I am trying to work out exactly what these are.

EDIT: You said you are not creationist in your OP. What do you think of yourself as?

I mean *giggles* I make one post and I am instantly classified as particular type of person. You have me sussed already YAY !
Often one post is enough. In your case, however, your latter posts have not followed the Ark Guy agressive archetype, so I am forced to reconsider my classification in the light that I may have misinterpreted the intent of your original post.


Hmm..okay..Data, excuse the questions but this topic is very interesting.

1: So is there validated data that shows that this viral footprint is different between humans and monkeys ?
2: Is there validated data showing the same footprint between humans and the ancestor, and if there is what is the ancestor ?
See, this is where you differ. If you were an Ark Guy you would have never have been even remotely civil and would have included at least one attack on Data's personality, mental capacity and/or spirituality.
 
Upvote 0

Alternate Carpark

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2004
3,783
113
msn
✟4,459.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Private
*smiles* apology accepted PhantomLlama.
We all fall into the trap of categorising, but some set themselves free and then take time to understand more of the person they first classified.
It's human nature to classify.

I suspect the creation/evolution debate is very intense and sometimes fanatical in America.
And 99.99999999999% of the time I never give it a look see because both camps ignore each other and just want to defend their view without really trying to comprehend said opposite view.

What do I think I am........I believe in God and truth. And I do my best to persue both.
I suppose my base concept on this type of issue is this.
Science is the tool we use to comprehend what God has created.
 
Upvote 0
F

ForeRunner

Guest
Alternate Carpark said:
Hmm..okay..Data, excuse the questions but this topic is very interesting.

1: So is there validated data that shows that this viral footprint is different between humans and monkeys ?
2: Is there validated data showing the same footprint between humans and the ancestor, and if there is what is the ancestor ?

Well, I'll explain it in greater detail. When a virus infects a cell it injects its own RNA into the cell. This RNA rewrites the genetic code of the cell and causes the cell to manufacture more of the virus until it bursts and releases the copies.

What we are referring to is a particular rare occurance of this process. What happens is, a virus attempts to infect a sex cell(sperm or egg). The virus manages to rewrite (or add) a small portion to the cells DNA. Then that particular cell happens to fertilize or be fertilized. That creature then makes it to maturity and has offspring, passing on the viral imprint in that specific part of the DNA strand. Offspring from then on bear that retro-viral imprint (unless that portion is deleted). The chances of this happening in the same place in the genetic code with the same virus of even two individuals is astronomical, nevermind across multiple individuals.

We can therefore reasonably conclude that any individuals with the same retro-viral imprint in the same place are related. It just so happens that the entire human and chimp population share such a mark. There are more as well, there is a heirarchy that reflects our taxamonic structure. Those are two pieces of independently coorborating evidence.
 
Upvote 0

Data

Veteran
Sep 15, 2003
1,439
63
38
Auckland
✟24,359.00
Faith
Atheist
Alternate Carpark said:
1: So is there validated data that shows that this viral footprint is different between humans and monkeys ?
It's different every time it infects someone. Basically, if the virus imprints on you, and the same happens to me, the imprint will be different places on both of us. However, your children will be born with the same imprint as you.

2: Is there validated data showing the same footprint between humans and the ancestor, and if there is what is the ancestor ?
It's probably important to realise there are hundreds of different imprints, all from different ancestors. Data? Sure.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=PubMed
Just search for retroviral insertions.

Figuring out exactly what species ancestor it actually was is probably difficult, but that isn't really relevant to the research. We know when the common ancestor lived, and what it came from, and what it changed into, which is all we really need.

retrovirus.gif


This picture for example, shows some imprints for the apes. Every species that diverged after the point has the imprint, but everything that diverged before it happened, doesn't have the imprint. It's just another piece of (and very accurate) evidence that fits in with exactly what we expect from genetic and morphological similarities as per evolution. It can easily be followed in all other species also.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
For those who have had difficulty in understanding the OP's, I will try and summarize and use analogies where appropriate.

1. A viral genome is inserted into a cell, but the cell is not killed. This is contrary to the normal viral lifecycle. It is a rare occasion when a virus will insert its RNA/DNA and the infected cell doesn't die. An analogy: A person is bitten by a rattlesnake but the venom does not create any reaction in the person who is bitten. Secondly, each viral insertion is random, or nearly random. There are viral insertion hotspots, but this only reduces the chances from 1 in a billion to 1 in 10 million. The chances of two separate viral insertions, by the same virus, occuring at the same spot is very unlikely.

2. The non-lethal viral insertion happens in a germ line cell. This would include eggs or sperm. The cells that make up your functional body, such as organs or muscle, are somatic cells. Germ line cells, in contrast, only serve as reproductive cells. Also, the number of somatic cells outnumber germ line cells by many orders of magnitude. Just guessing, but a ratio of 1:million might be accurate. Therefore, for this to happen in a germ line cell is rare.

3. The infected germ line cell is part of a reproductive event. For instance, out of the million of sperm, 1 or two are infected. One of those sperm end up fertilizing an egg. Again, we are talking about a one in a million chance.

4. This insertion then becomes part of the entire gene pool of a population. This viral insertion must make it from one individual to the entire population over numerous generations. An analogy: Everyone in the world coming into contact with the same dollar bill. This would take time and chance, and not every dollar bill would make it into everyone's hands. Therefore, not every viral insert makes it into the genome of every organism in a population.

Why endogenous retroviral insertions are strong evidence for common descent:

The chances of two populations, not just individuals, of having the same viral insertion in the same exact spot in their DNA sequence is extremely small. Even if two different species were infected by the same virus, the chances of the ineffective virus inserting in the same spot is close to impossible, or highly improbable. Then you have to add in the fact that these ERV's are found throughtout two different populations. Again, this is improbable. However, if your theory is that humans and apes had a common ancestor, and the common ancestor had these viral insertions, then it would be expected that apes and humans would have viral insertions that are identical. This is what we find. The theory of common ancestory explains why a highly improbable event (two different species having the same ERV) is in fact probable.

An analogy: Two students right a 3 billion word thesis. The professor reading the theses finds that they are almost identical. On top of this, the teacher finds that in one paragraph, not only is the wording identical, but the misspellings are identical. Would the teacher conclude that, given the chance of two people misspelling the same word in an identical paragraph is small, the two authors copied off of each other? Or that one author copied off of another? Of course, and for good reason. It is this same reasoning that ERV's support common ancestory between apes and humans.
 
  • Like
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0

Pete Harcoff

PeteAce - In memory of WinAce
Jun 30, 2002
8,304
72
✟9,884.00
Faith
Other Religion
Arkanin said:
A creationist could make the argument that God just gave humans and the apes they appear to descend from similar genetic information. It's not very good, but fits.

Actually, that argument makes no sense at all.

Why would God insert indentical endogenous retroviruses in various genomes (and esp. in a manner that verifies common descent)? Considering that many creationists argue that things like viruses, mutations, etc didn't show up until post-Fall (and therefore, post-Creation), there is no reason for God to stick endogenous retroviruses in the DNA. Unless God was trying to trick us...
 
Upvote 0

Alternate Carpark

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2004
3,783
113
msn
✟4,459.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Private
Okay thanks for the simplified clarifications.

So please be patient with me because I am going to ask heaps of questions.
But one or two at a time as my brain is already close to overload.

1: Is this imprint in ALL races of humans ?

2: Clarify Chimp---all monkeys or just the chimpanzee species.
Can't quite make out the imprints in the above picture.
Does it say humans have same imprint as all the types of monkeys ?

3: How do we know it's a virus that made the imprint.
 
Upvote 0

rmwilliamsll

avid reader
Mar 19, 2004
6,006
334
✟7,946.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Green
Alternate Carpark said:
Okay thanks for the simplified clarifications.

So please be patient with me because I am going to ask heaps of questions.
But one or two at a time as my brain is already close to overload.

1: Is this imprint in ALL races of humans ?

2: Clarify Chimp---all monkeys or just the chimpanzee species.
Can't quite make out the imprints in the above picture.
Does it say humans have same imprint as all the types of monkeys ?

3: How do we know it's a virus that made the imprint.

It is really a big topic, i have no idea how deep you want to get into it, partly a matter of time and study, but mostly one of interest and incentive.

here is a summary of an article in the field
this brief paragraph actually answers all your questions.


BACKGROUND: Endogenous retroviruses contribute to the evolution of the host genome and can be associated with disease. Human endogenous retrovirus K (HERV-K) is related to the mouse mammary tumor virus and is present in the genomes of humans, apes and cercopithecoids (Old World monkeys). It is unknown how long ago in primate evolution the full-length HERV-K proviruses that are in the human genome today were formed. RESULTS: Ten full-length HERV-K proviruses were cloned from the human genome. Using provirus-specific probes, eight of the ten were found to be present in a genetically diverse set of humans but not in other extant hominoids. Intact preintegration sites for each of these eight proviruses were present in the apes. A ninth provirus was detected in the human, chimpanzee, bonobo and gorilla genomes, but not in the orang-utan genome. The tenth was found only in humans, chimpanzees and bonobos. Complete sequencing of six of the human-specific proviruses showed that full-length open reading frames for the retroviral protein precursors Gag-Pro-Pol or Env were each present in multiple proviruses. CONCLUSIONS: At least eight full-length HERV-K genomes that are in the human germline today integrated after humans diverged from chimpanzees. All of the viral open reading frames and cis-acting sequences necessary for HERV-K replication must have been intact during the recent time when these proviruses formed. Multiple full-length open reading frames for all HERV-K proteins are present in the human genome today.

as per the rules of the forum i am unable to cite the reference. therefore google a short piece to obtain the article.

the title of the best review article i found is:
"Demystified . . . Human endogenous retroviruses"

if you google it, and try to read the article i think it will point you in the right direction. which is probably the best a forum like this can do. it is not really conductive to long complex scientific thinking....(imho)
 
Upvote 0

rmwilliamsll

avid reader
Mar 19, 2004
6,006
334
✟7,946.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Green

The following errors occurred when this message was submitted:

1. You do not have enough posts to post a link to an external site. You need a post count of at least 15. Please go back and correct the problem and then continue again. Links to your own site are limited to the Favorite Web Links forum only once you have 15 posts.

Links include use of posted URLs, the vB code XXXX tag and HTML XXXX tags. The use of these is all subject to them being enabled by the administrator.




as per forum rules. an attempt by me to post an external link results in the above error message. in fact, i can not even post the error message as that contains tags.....

o'well, 12 more messages to go *grin*
something like paying your dues.
 
Upvote 0

Frumious Bandersnatch

Contributor
Mar 4, 2003
6,390
334
79
Visit site
✟30,931.00
Faith
Unitarian
the_gloaming said:
why on Earth is there a rule saying you can't cite the reference ? Surely not citing a reference is plagiarism (although you have said it's from a reference, so maybe not) ?
Wellcome to the board. You can cite references of course but you can't post website links until after you have made a certain number of posts (15?). I remember that annoyed me at first but I guess it is to prevent people from signing up and spamming the board with links to other websites. I have also had the boards anti bad word software insist on modifying a link by putting in *** to write over something it mistakenly thought was offensive. That is annoying but rare.

The frumious Bandersnatch
 
Upvote 0
D

Drotar

Guest
WinAce said:
snip [QUOTE]

I was wondering something actually. How is an ERV distinguishable from the rest of the genome? Is it a pseudogene of some sort that simply shares similar patterns to known retroviruses? If it is an ancient retrovirus, how does one know that a genetic sequence is an endogenous retrovirus insertion?

Well done on the paper by the way.
 
Upvote 0