End Times Chronology and the Rapture of the Church

[Douggg]

You're correct, they did not witness those events. But what they did directly and personally witness and experience, including martyrdom, were the emergence, claims, and actions of the papacy. And they compared all of those to the prophecies, particularly in Daniel 7 and 2 Thessalonians, and they concluded with conviction that there was an indisputable match between, and fulfillment of, what they read in Scripture, and what they were personally witnessing and experiencing. And then they themselves began to act on that conviction, declaring from Scripture that the papacy was antichrist and the man of sin. And it was that declaration, in conjunction with that of Martin Luther's epic "The just shall live by faith", that lit the candle of spiritual enlightenment in the prevailing dark ages, and began the reformation and reclamation process within the Church, without which it is highly improbable that you or I would be here to be able to discuss it.

So once again, prophetic history rooted in the undeniable Reformation realities of direct personal observation, experience, conviction, and action. All in the historical record for all to see. And for each one to make their decision as to what they will choose to believe. It's up to you.

Well, the popes of that period were certainly evil to the core, but that doesn't make them the Antichrist. The Antichrist is a singular person who will become the King of Israel, then revealed as the man of sin, then becomes the beast of Revelation - who is cast alive into the lake of fire at Jesus's return. Does not fit the Pope.

The beast is accompanied by the False Prophet, another individual who will be cast into the lake of fire alive at the time of Jesus's return. The popes don't have anyone who is partnered with them that calls down fire from heaven and other miracles. The popes just don't fit.

 

[BABerean2]

It will continue that way until Jesus second coming, when Israel finally recognizes Jesus as their Messiah, according to Zech.12:10 and Zech.14:4-5

Mat 25:10　 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.　


Mat 25:11　 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.　


Mat 25:12　 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.　


Mat 25:13　 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.　


Based on the parable of the virgins, there will be no second chances on the day of His Second Coming.

Christ does not judge people based on their DNA on the day of His Second Coming.


The Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost and about 3,000 of those who had called for and had seen Him pierced a few weeks earlier repented and accepted the New Covenant, fulfilling Zechariah 12:10.

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[BABerean2]

The times of the gentiles, the gospel sent to them - as Israel was and still is currently enemies to the gospel for the gentiles sake - who Paul was addressing in Romans. That time is fulfilled, completed, when the church is taken out of the world, anytime between now and when the rapture actually takes place.

Luk 21:24　 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
　

The Second Coming occurs when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, based on this passage.


Luk 21:25　 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;　

Luk 21:26　 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

Luk 21:28　 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.



Paul started Romans 11 with two different groups of Israelites. (Romans 11:1-5)
There were the Baal worshippers and the 7,000 of the faithful remnant.
Paul ends the passage in the same way with two groups of Israelites.
　
There are two different groups of Israelites in the verse below.
There are "they" who have rejected Christ and are enemies of the Gospel.
There is another group of "they" who have accepted Christ and are the election.

Rom 11:28　 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.　


If all Israelites today were enemies of the Gospel, then none of them would be coming to salvation during our time. This is clearly not the case, as we see below.

This Jewish man discovered the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34, in his Hebrew scriptures and accepted Christ as his Messiah.

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[keras]

who of blood descent of the twelve tribes.

According to genealogical experts, everyone on earth today, must have some of Abrahams DNA.
Anyway, ethnicity counts for nothing since Jesus came and offered salvation to all who would accept Him.
You idea that God still has a plan for the Jews, is not Biblical.

I am not desperate. I am comforted by what is written in the bible. I think Satan's lie, among countless of his lies, is that the rapture to heaven wont' happen.

How is it then, that a rapture to heaven is never actually stated in the Bible, but God's plan to have His righteous people living in His holy Land is prophesied many times?
Which one is Satan's lie?

 

[CuriousWes]

Pretribbers seem obsessed with not ever having to suffer persecution.

I've noticed that as well. I think it appeals to the emotion as something that they want to be true which could help explain the never ending disagreement between the two basic rapture camps. On the one hand, you have people who are primarily persuaded by emotion and rhetoric and on the other, those who prefer an intellectual, logical approach. Consequently, they talk past each other.

Whether someone is more inclined toward emotion/rhetoric or intellect is typically a result of genetics, being characteristics that all humans share. For believers, we have the Holy Spirit to guide us into the truth. Truth is a lifestyle that gives insight and discernment beyond what flawed emotions and intellect can.

So, in the final analysis, what matters is that we have built our house on the Rock, engaged in lifestyle worship of our redeemer King.

 

[Quasar92]

That is an entirely predictable but still nonetheless astonishing expression of the contempt with which you regard the historic heroes of the Christian faith, whose courage and sacrifice even unto death have enabled your very existence and freedom to this day to scorn and spurn their memories and legacies. It also marks the belief system to which you persist in adhering as a malignant scourge which must be excised from out of the body of the Church of God, before she can become the glorious Church without spot or wrinkle who must precede His return.

The heretic teachings of Amillennialism the Bible refutes:

1. The denial of Jesus Millennial reign on earth

THE ORIGIN OF AMILLENNIALISM in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Scriptures that prove the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ on Earth in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

2. The denial of the pre-trib raptue of the Church:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Nicene Christianity became the state church of the Roman Empire with the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 AD, when Emperor Theodosius I made it the Empire's sole authorized religion. This marked the beginning of the apostasis of the papacy, but the process extended over centuries. You will notice that virtually all of my references to the Church fathers are to those from the early post-apostolic period who were born before this date.

Premil and amil were both present in the early church well before the above date. Here is a balanced description. In particular, Justin Martyr, who was an early premil (100-165 AD, long before 380 AD) wrote:

"I and many others are of this opinion [premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise."

Justin Martyr confirmed the existence of amil at that early date, and did not consider amil to be refuted by the Bible.

See post #75.


Quasar92

 

[Jezmeyah]

Antichrist will make a 7 years Peace Deal between Israel-Arab which is actually to split the land in two states solution. May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

Concerning the peace deal. There is Jerem.6:14 + 1 Thes.5:3 which would go along with Daniel 9:27 because there is no true desire for peace but only as Ps.83 states, to which God replies in Joel 3:1-2. Which goes with Zech.14:1-5 + Revel.19:16; 16:14-16.

 

[Douggg]

According to genealogical experts, everyone on earth today, must have some of Abrahams DNA.
Anyway, ethnicity counts for nothing since Jesus came and offered salvation to all who would accept Him.
You idea that God still has a plan for the Jews, is not Biblical.

The twelve tribes are from the sons of Jacob, who was the grandson of Abraham. The starting point is from the twelve sons of Jacob (Israel)

How is it then, that a rapture to heaven is never actually stated in the Bible, but God's plan to have His righteous people living in His holy Land is prophesied many times? Which one is Satan's lie?

The lie is that rapture does not take people to heaven. You can package it however you want to package it - it still boils down to the same thing. Remember though you are the one who brought up the Satan's lie label, not me. I was willing just to attribute such misunderstanding as just human error.
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[Douggg]

Luk 21:24　 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
　

The Second Coming occurs when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, based on this passage.

I think you may be interpreting that passage with the Second Coming by measuring time with the second hand of a clock, not on the scale of history. The Second Coming takes place in the end times. That is when the times of the gentiles ends... in the end times. The Jews have come out of the nations and back into the land - in the end times - to re-establish the nation of Israel, and to retake Jerusalem, from the gentiles.

Fulfillment of the times of the gentiles is when the Church is raptured from the world.

 

[BABerean2]

I think you may be interpreting that passage with the Second Coming by measuring time with the second hand of a clock, not on the scale of history. The Second Coming takes place in the end times. That is when the times of the gentiles ends... in the end times. The Jews have come out of the nations and back into the land - in the end times - to re-establish the nation of Israel, and to retake Jerusalem, from the gentiles.

Fulfillment of the times of the gentiles is when the Church is raptured from the world.

We find the Second Coming of Christ in Luke 21:25-28, after the times of the Gentiles is completed at the end of Luke 21:24.

What is there to interpret?

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[jgr]

Well, the popes of that period were certainly evil to the core, but that doesn't make them the Antichrist. The Antichrist is a singular person who will become the King of Israel, then revealed as the man of sin, then becomes the beast of Revelation - who is cast alive into the lake of fire at Jesus's return. Does not fit the Pope.

The beast is accompanied by the False Prophet, another individual who will be cast into the lake of fire alive at the time of Jesus's return. The popes don't have anyone who is partnered with them that calls down fire from heaven and other miracles. The popes just don't fit.

You've chosen to place greater faith in futurized speculation, than belief in historical reality. That is certainly your undeniable right. Just don't forget that it is the wisdom and sacrifice of the saints of old which has made that possible.

 

[jgr]

See post #75.


Quasar92

Been there seen that. Justin Martyr, quoted below, had passed on before Origen was born. Catholicism did not come into identifiable existence until 380 AD.

Unless you can prove me wrong, I'm reasonably certain that no historic premillenialist (i.e. premillenialist before the 19th century) ever labelled amillenialism as heresy. That "honor" belongs to the cultic modernism of dispensationalism.

To reiterate (for you to ignore once again):

Nicene Christianity became the state church of the Roman Empire with the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 AD, when Emperor Theodosius I made it the Empire's sole authorized religion. This marked the beginning of the apostasis of the papacy, but the process extended over centuries. You will notice that virtually all of my references to the Church fathers are to those from the early post-apostolic period who were born before this date.

Premil and amil were both present in the early church well before the above date. Here is a balanced description. In particular, Justin Martyr, who was an early premil (100-165 AD, long before 380 AD) wrote:

"I and many others are of this opinion [premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise."

Justin Martyr confirmed the existence of amil at that early date, and did not consider amil to be refuted by the Bible.

 

[jgr]

And from Wikipedia:

Historic, or Classic Premillennialism is distinctively non-dispensational. This means that it sees no radical theological distinction between Israel and the Church. It is often post-tribulational, meaning that the rapture of the church will occur after a period of tribulation. Historic premillennialism maintains chiliasm because of its view that the church will be caught up to meet Christ in the air and then escort him to the earth in order to share in his literal thousand year rule. Proponents of the view include Charles Spurgeon[63] and George Eldon Ladd.


Other than the difference in the view of the millennium, there are no significant differences between historic premil and amil.

Dispensational cultic modernism is the radical outlier.

 

[Douggg]

You've chosen to place greater faith in futurized speculation, than belief in historical reality. That is certainly your undeniable right. Just don't forget that it is the wisdom and sacrifice of the saints of old which has made that possible.

We can certainly owe gratitude of the reformers for breaking away from the evil and control of the popes and heirarchy of the RCC. But the reformers were wrong about the papacy, pope, being the Antichrist.... by misunderstanding the scriptures themselves. And they did not have the recent history of Israel re-established as a nation in 1948 and Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews in 1967, that we do. The end times prophecies are not speculation, but unfulfilled events that are close to happening..

 

[BABerean2]

But the reformers were wrong about the papacy, pope, being the Antichrist.... by misunderstanding the scriptures themselves.

When Cornelius attempted to bow down to Peter, Peter said "...do not...".

When the Apostle John attempted to bow down to the angel at the end of the Book of Revelation, the angel said "... do not...".

Any man who allows a person to bow down and kiss his ring or foot, is antichrist.

Any man who sits in the Church pretending to be God or Christ's representative on earth, is antichrist.

The Reformers understood that part of the scripture perfectly.

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[jgr]

We can certainly owe gratitude of the reformers for breaking away from the evil and control of the popes and heirarchy of the RCC. But the reformers were wrong about the papacy, pope, being the Antichrist.... by misunderstanding the scriptures themselves. And they did not have the recent history of Israel re-established as a nation in 1948 and Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews in 1967, that we do. The end times prophecies are not speculation, but unfulfilled events that are close to happening..

Are you a Protestant? I am.

The Reformation was a Protestant Reformation.

If the Reformers had not believed the prophecies as they did, and sacrificed themselves as they did, you and I as Protestants would not be here today.

We most likely would not be here at all.

Simple as that.

 

[Douggg]

Are you a Protestant? I am.

The Reformation was a Protestant Reformation.

If the Reformers had not believed the prophecies as they did, and sacrificed themselves as they did, you and I as Protestants would not be here today.

We most likely would not be here at all.

Simple as that.

I am non-Catholic.

 

[keras]

The twelve tribes are from the sons of Jacob, who was the grandson of Abraham. The starting point is from the twelve sons of Jacob (Israel)

Then will restate my case: According to genealogical experts, [and simple mathematical multiplication] every person alive today would have some of Jacobs DNA.

The lie is that rapture does not take people to heaven. You can package it however you want to package it - it still boils down to the same thing. Remember though you are the one who brought up the Satan's lie label, not me. I was willing just to attribute such misunderstanding as just human error.

I 'package' my beliefs on what I read in the Bible.
Nowhere does the Bible say God will take Christians, or even just the true born again ones, to heaven. In fact, such an idea conflicts with Jesus' Words: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Plain straightforward words. Any attempt to make this mean that a rapture is still possible, is a serious error.
I am NOT willing to think; 'oh, they just made a mistake' to all who have consciously chosen to believe that God will take them away before anything nasty happens. Beliefs in wrong doctrines is a sin and those who decide to do it, will be judged for it.

 

[mark kennedy]

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

Found this little gem on Bible.org:

Our modern understanding of rapture appears to have little or no connection with the eschatological event. However, the word is properly used of that event. Rapture is a state or experience of being carried away. The English word comes from a Latin word, rapio, which means to seize or snatch in relation to an ecstasy of spirit or the actual removal from one place to another. In other words, it means to be carried away in spirit or in body. The Rapture of the church means the carrying away of the church from earth to heaven.

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea (Acts 8:39) and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4). Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven. (Rapture, Ryrie’s Basic Theology)​

2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.

3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.

We know it's 7 years from the prophecy in Danial

"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. (Danial 9:24)​

The Messiah arrives in Jerusalem 69 weeks or 490 years:

From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ (Dan. 9:25)​

That leaves one week, a seven year period that is currently suspended because Israel rejected the Messiah, starts at the opening of the first seal. The first 6 Trumpets are sounded 3 1/2 years into the 7 year tribulation:

They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. (Rev. 11:2,3)​

So the seals start the Tribulation, the trumpets are complete in 3 1/2 years and the vials of wrath are poured out near the end. Never saw the pretribulation rapture but I've always enjoyed the dispensational perspective on all of this.

Grace and peace,
Mark