Employers Are About to Take Back Control

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Hospital strikes and nursing levels

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

I read a lot of leadership.books. Books by John Maxwell, Simon Sinnek, Jon Gordon, Patrick Lencioni. One of the top books I've read is The Leadership Challenge. I've been to 4 leadership training courses, and attended at least 3 other courses on line. I listen to three different leadership.podcasta and also am currently taking another leadership training. I will be attending another this fall.


If you are really interested in learning about this I would highly recommend those authors. They have taught me how a real leader works.

I've been through MBO, MBWA, 6 Sigma, Agile, 360, OKRs, and other management practices since I was in college in the 1980s. Oh, and the Vitality Curve of Jack Welch when I was working at GE, which is still the mantra of a lot of companies. 20% are leaders, 70% are adequate and fire the bottom 10% regardless of the circumstances. So every year, we had to compete and backstab each other to stay out of the bottom 10%. You have a kid's recital to go to this evening? Too bad you don't believe in working hard. You are sick? Don't worry, your coworker would be happy to fill in so that he would get a bump in the ratings to keep his job for the next year. I had to fight just to go to church on Sundays, and then go in and work from noon to 6pm.

If you wanted to go to the bathroom, you pretty much had to design a 6 Sigma project to show the cost-benefit analysis of relieving yourself was going to impact your workload. My job was making my boss look good, he got the raises, I didn't. He drove a brand new Mercedes 500SEL, I drove a 10 year old Taurus wagon that was breaking down all the time.

At 55, I just want to do well, be left alone and have the energy to spend with my wife and my youngest still living in the house. I don't remember my oldest children as toddlers through their childhood years because I was working all the time. So while I've had good managers since 2015, I've got the GenX skepticism about the latest management trend, even though I do some management activities.

I still remember all those motivational posters that were so popular. Here's my view

 

[rjs330]

But in God's world, why would anybody think that's right. And bad part of it is really the bait the employers put out to snag salary workers - better benefits aka healthcare, 401k savings, paid vacations, paid sick leave. Why can't this be given to every employee. I feel for Christians to participate in this type of dealings they are reaffirming Charles Darwin's "Survival of the Fittest". Go to college, become a professional and have a better life. Become a laborer and your life will be one long struggle to make ends meet. Now for both of these that's not true in every case but the majority it probably is the case.

Why do we do this to people is beyond me. When I was a programmer analyst, there were weeks before deadlines where I was working over 60 hrs a week. There were days where I didn't go home and stayed at work for 24 hrs. Not right.

I know we need businesses to succeed for America to succeed but I truly believe we can correct the problem for all workers but businesses don't want to take the risk. I don't know, I just want people who are struggling to not have to struggle all their lives. God is with them all the way, hopefully they will recognize Him and be a comfort to them.

Didn't you agree to take a salary wage? This is what I don't get. Why are you griping about being paid what was agreed upon. Did you sign some sort of contract on 40 hours a week? My friend, salary is paid at a higher wage than the average person for the company. It comes with the understanding that sometimes you might have to work more hours depending on what's going on. You also gain flexibility as well. It doesn't seem right to complain about what YOU agreed to.

On God's world that's how it works. Remembers Christs words?

“The Kingdom of Heaven is like a farmer who went out at daybreak to hire workers for his vineyard.After agreeing with the workers on a wage of one denarius, [the standard daily wage,] he sent them off to his vineyard.Then, on going out at about nine in the morning, he saw more men standing around in the market-square doing nothing,and said to them, ‘You go to the vineyard too — I’ll pay you a fair wage.’ So they went.At noon, and again around three in the afternoon, he did the same thing.About an hour before sundown, he went out, found still others standing around, and asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day, doing nothing?”They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ ‘You too,’ he told them, ‘go to the vineyard.’“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, starting with the last ones hired and ending with the first.’The workers who came an hour before sunset each received a denarius,so the workers who came first expected they would get more, but each of them also received just a denarius.On receiving their wages, they began grumbling to the farmer,‘These latecomers have worked only one hour, while we have borne the brunt of the day’s work in the hot sun, yet you have put them on an equal footing with us!’But he answered one of them, ‘Look, friend, I’m not being unfair with you. Didn’t you agree to work today for a denarius?Now take your pay and go! I choose to give the last worker as much as I’m giving you.Haven’t I the right to do what I want with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’Thus the last ones will be first and the first last.” - Matthew 20:1-16 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 20:1-16 - Complete Jewish Bible

Hasn't your employer the right to do what he wants with their money? They are paying you well for a job. If you don't like it, you don't have to work for them.

 

[rjs330]

You said:

Nowhere in my posts have I advocated for giving people indiscriminate raises or raises to get them to work harder, so the only conclusion I could draw from your statement was that you believed that the only value in a raise would be to get more work out of an employee (which is obviously incorrect).

That's objectively false. Approximately 46% of Americans are employed by small businesses (defined as less than 500 employees).

Top Small Business Statistics

While giants in technology and multinational corporations often capture the public's attention, it's small businesses that form the crux of the American economy. As we step into 2024, these businesses continue to evolve, reflecting not only their enduring role in job creation but also their signific

www.forbes.com

Okay about 50/50 then. I was wrong about that.

And you were wrong about my statement. If that's what you got out of my statement you are incorrect. Because employees don't typically work harder when they get a raise. Unless they get a different position that requires them to. That's why I said what I did that if you are the type of person to give 50% a raise isn't going to cause you to give 100%.

 

[rjs330]

Let's discuss Leo Apotheker? Maybe Carly Fiorina? Hey, how about our favorite Steve Jobs wanna be, Elizabeth Holmes. Oh, Enron comes to mind as well.

I'm not saying every company is like that, but after 35 years in the workforce, I've learned that my loyalty to a company is not worth the contract its written on. I don't mind pulling some late nights and volunteering for assignments that are going to be a stretch. Heck, in my current position, I'm a senior system administrator, trained and mentored about 8 of my counterparts, and I love my work. But if someone said, "Hey, we're offering you a 7 figure job", my office chair would be spinning so fast, it would probably take off.

So you don't agree that it's 50/50?
I've worked for about 49 years now. And I have found that loyalty to a company does matter. That's probably part tif the reason you are a senior administrator. And no one's going to offer you a 7 figure job. I doubt that what you do is worth that.

That's the other thing too many people miss. There is value in what you do. But that value is in WHAT YOU DO. A janitor id not going to make as much money as an electrician. Or a senior systems analyst.

As I said, not every company is great to their people and not every boss is a good one. Let me repeat that for everyone's benefit. Not every company is great to their people and not every boss is a good one.

I don't know if we are going to get anywhere with this. If we can't agree that it's a 50/50 deal, company/employee then we don't have much more to say. If you are going to constantly blame the bosses and make them the bad guys then you have certainly fallen for the left wing propaganda and I am not going to change your mind.

In all my years of work, I have come to realize that employees are as much to blame as companies for poor performance.

 

[rjs330]

Seems like managers need to do a better job retaining employees. I wonder if throwing around terms like "quiet quitting" or "slacking" is helping or hurting?



Seems like a staffing problem. Why hasn't management "worked together" and hired the correct number of people do deal with perfectly normal and predictable events like employees taking a few vacation days?



Yes, employees are going to look out for the welfare of themselves and their families instead of a company. You're really hoping people in a capitalist society won't put their self interests first?



I notice there's exactly zero in here about employers staffing at reasonable levels and pay increases that keep up with inflation and the salaires offered to people who jump ship to the competition. I think we all all know why - this sort of "we're all in this together" talk is an attempt to guilt employees into working extra hours to fix a problem management doesn't want to spend money on.

I have to say you are terrible at mind reading.
You know who came up with quiet quitting? It wasn't employers.

Are you aware at all on how hard it is to find enough people? I'm sure companies would love to have more people. Have you even been on the help wanted stuff? Where I work we are constantly hiring. We haven't been full up for years now.

Keep up with inflation? No one can keep up with inflation. You know what part of inflation? Salaries. If inflation is at 5% that means everything's at 5% more costly for the business as well as consumers. And if salaries also go up so do consumer prices. Creating more inflation. That's why the fed is raising interest rates to try and cool inflation. It's all a nasty circle. And there is no good answer for it all. Salaries have gone up between 4-5% and are looking to increase that much again. But there is some serious naivety in thinking we can or should just give everyone a pay bump equal to inflation all the time.

 

[rjs330]

Seems like a problem money can solve.

No it's not. There are more jobs than people available to fill them. I know businesses who have offered wages above the prevailing rates and they still can't get enough people. With an unemployment rate between 3-4% Nearly everyone who wants a job has one. And not everyone wants the same job or has the skills for the same job.

Man I am seeing so much naivety on this thread as to how things work.

All problems are not solved just by throwing money at it. If you offered medical analysts 100,000 per year, how much are your medical expenses going to go up? Not to mention all the nurses who now want a 100,000 raise to keep up. Suddenly your visit to the doctor is going to cost you 1000 just for an office visit.

 

[rjs330]

Seems like a problem money can solve.



Seems only fair that the increased scope is accompanied by an increase in salary for that employee.

Oh really? How do you know that the employee isn't already being paid for that?

 

[RocksInMyHead]

And you were wrong about my statement. If that's what you got out of my statement you are incorrect. Because employees don't typically work harder when they get a raise. Unless they get a different position that requires them to. That's why I said what I did that if you are the type of person to give 50% a raise isn't going to cause you to give 100%.

Then I wonder why you brought it up - because I certainly never said anything about raises making employees work harder.

 

[Nithavela]

Keep up with inflation? No one can keep up with inflation. You know what part of inflation? Salaries. If inflation is at 5% that means everything's at 5% more costly for the business as well as consumers. And if salaries also go up so do consumer prices. Creating more inflation. That's why the fed is raising interest rates to try and cool inflation. It's all a nasty circle. And there is no good answer for it all. Salaries have gone up between 4-5% and are looking to increase that much again. But there is some serious naivety in thinking we can or should just give everyone a pay bump equal to inflation all the time.

The current inflation is not driven by salaries or shortages, but by corporations price gouging and cashing in profits at a record rate.

Corporate profits have contributed disproportionately to inflation. How should policymakers respond?

The inflation spike of 2021 and 2022 has presented real policy challenges. In order to better understand this policy debate, it is imperative to look at prices and how they are being affected. The price of just about everything in the U.S. economy can be broken down into the three main...

www.epi.org

That said, I also think that the best course of action would be to hike interest rates and keep on increasing the price of basic goods and services. Either the poor starve or they start eating the rich. Both solve the problem.

 

[rjs330]

I've been through MBO, MBWA, 6 Sigma, Agile, 360, OKRs, and other management practices since I was in college in the 1980s. Oh, and the Vitality Curve of Jack Welch when I was working at GE, which is still the mantra of a lot of companies. 20% are leaders, 70% are adequate and fire the bottom 10% regardless of the circumstances. So every year, we had to compete and backstab each other to stay out of the bottom 10%. You have a kid's recital to go to this evening? Too bad you don't believe in working hard. You are sick? Don't worry, your coworker would be happy to fill in so that he would get a bump in the ratings to keep his job for the next year. I had to fight just to go to church on Sundays, and then go in and work from noon to 6pm.

If you wanted to go to the bathroom, you pretty much had to design a 6 Sigma project to show the cost-benefit analysis of relieving yourself was going to impact your workload. My job was making my boss look good, he got the raises, I didn't. He drove a brand new Mercedes 500SEL, I drove a 10 year old Taurus wagon that was breaking down all the time.

At 55, I just want to do well, be left alone and have the energy to spend with my wife and my youngest still living in the house. I don't remember my oldest children as toddlers through their childhood years because I was working all the time. So while I've had good managers since 2015, I've got the GenX skepticism about the latest management trend, even though I do some management activities.

I still remember all those motivational posters that were so popular. Here's my view

View attachment 330909

Yeah, back in the 80s it was pretty much focused on management not leadership. That's how you ended up with the 70/20/10.
That's totally going away. Not completely because there are still some valuable things to take away from management of employees. You still need a sense of that. But for the last 15 years now it's been a slow move to leadership principles. It's the very first thing I learned when taking my supervisory position.

There is just so much cynicism on this thread. Jon Gordon and John Maxwell are just to good on this. Handling life's disappointments. You should read the Energy Bus. Keep an open mind.

Everyone has to retire at some point. We also need something to keep us going after retirement. I plan on retiring in about 3 years or so after working 40 years in the same field. I'm still energized today. I live what I am doing. I doubt I will move higher in my profession and that's okay. I've been passed over a couple of times, but I am grateful for my job and I love my people. I live helping them and helping my supervisors. I could be grouchy and grumpy and burned out. But I refuse to give in to negativity and sourness.

Every day is a gift and I am grateful. You can't be thankful and negative at the same time.

Yes we have given much of our selves to work. That's how it's supposed to be. Work hard to support your family, spend time with family and friends. I won't look back and say I shouldn't have worked as long. Yes I should have. It's what we were meant to do.

 

[rjs330]

Then I wonder why you brought it up - because I certainly never said anything about raises making employees work harder.

I may have misunderstood what you were saying. Anyway that's that.

 

[Pommer]

Didn't you agree to take a salary wage? This is what I don't get. Why are you griping about being paid what was agreed upon. Did you sign some sort of contract on 40 hours a week? My friend, salary is paid at a higher wage than the average person for the company. It comes with the understanding that sometimes you might have to work more hours depending on what's going on. You also gain flexibility as well. It doesn't seem right to complain about what YOU agreed to.

On God's world that's how it works. Remembers Christs words?

“The Kingdom of Heaven is like a farmer who went out at daybreak to hire workers for his vineyard.After agreeing with the workers on a wage of one denarius, [the standard daily wage,] he sent them off to his vineyard.Then, on going out at about nine in the morning, he saw more men standing around in the market-square doing nothing,and said to them, ‘You go to the vineyard too — I’ll pay you a fair wage.’ So they went.At noon, and again around three in the afternoon, he did the same thing.About an hour before sundown, he went out, found still others standing around, and asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day, doing nothing?”They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ ‘You too,’ he told them, ‘go to the vineyard.’“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, starting with the last ones hired and ending with the first.’The workers who came an hour before sunset each received a denarius,so the workers who came first expected they would get more, but each of them also received just a denarius.On receiving their wages, they began grumbling to the farmer,‘These latecomers have worked only one hour, while we have borne the brunt of the day’s work in the hot sun, yet you have put them on an equal footing with us!’But he answered one of them, ‘Look, friend, I’m not being unfair with you. Didn’t you agree to work today for a denarius?Now take your pay and go! I choose to give the last worker as much as I’m giving you.Haven’t I the right to do what I want with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’Thus the last ones will be first and the first last.” - Matthew 20:1-16 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 20:1-16 - Complete Jewish Bible

Hasn't your employer the right to do what he wants with their money? They are paying you well for a job. If you don't like it, you don't have to work for them.

It’s a parable about the Kingdom of Heaven, not an economic treatise.
But It also virtually destroys your point by revealing that we’re going to run into unjust bosses.

 

[iluvatar5150]

salary is paid at a higher wage than the average person for the company.

Why do you say that? Every time I’ve been salaried, I’ve been salaried along with 90%+ of the company. At most office jobs, “the average person” is salaried.

 

[rjs330]

current inflation is not driven by salaries or shortages, but by corporations price gouging and cashing in profits at a record rate.

That's one thought. However it's not the only one. I know that's what you believe and others believe the same thing, but it's not settled.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/22/perspectives/inflation-corporate-profits-labor-costs/index.html

Are greedy corporations causing inflation?

Not Very Sophisticated Thinking About Inflation - Econlib

Government data proves ‘corporate greed’ isn’t causing inflation, contrary to Dem claims: economists

I'm not saying corporate profits have nothing to do with it. All I am saying is that it's not the driving force behind inflation as some suggest.

I'm seeing a pattern here. It's just another example of the division of thought. Leftists believe businesses are out to screw everyone over, including their employees. That anyone in management it's cold heartless and cruel and are just like scrooge. Employees are the
angels of the good work and they all go to work, give 100% to barely squeak by living good and honest and never take advantage of their employer.

The honest approach would be to say we are all fallen people and no one is above reproach. There are bad bosses and bad businesses and there are just as many bad employees. I believe most companies are good companies who try to do well in their business and treat their employees well. I believe most employees will do their best most days and not rip off their company ( though the statistics may say otherwise.).

Let's all get to work and do our best and treat each other as well as we can. Don't screw anyone over, and be understanding.

 

[rjs330]

It’s a parable about the Kingdom of Heaven, not an economic treatise.
But It also virtually destroys your point by revealing that we’re going to run into unjust bosses.

You realize that God is the boss here. What you say shows your mindset and lack of understanding. The employee agreed to the plan. The boss lived up to the agreement and the employee didn't like it and wanted to change the terms after he agreed.

That's greed and it is ungrateful.

If God works this way, and he does, then it is not unjust in the least for a boss to give wages as agreed upon.

 

[rjs330]

Why do you say that? Every time I’ve been salaried, I’ve been salaried along with 90%+ of the company. At most office jobs, “the average person” is salaried.

Depends on the company. You are talking office jobs. There are a lot more jobs out there than office jobs.

 

[Pommer]

You realize that God is the boss here. What you say shows your mindset and lack of understanding. The employee agreed to the plan. The boss lived up to the agreement and the employee didn't like it and wanted to change the terms after he agreed.

That's greed and it is ungrateful.

If God works this way, and he does, then it is not unjust in the least for a boss to give wages as agreed upon.

Is that why there’s a need for a “hell”?

 

[Nithavela]

It’s a parable about the Kingdom of Heaven, not an economic treatise.

It really takes some brazenness to take a parable about gods generosity and turn it around to use it as an excuse for corporate greed.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

So you don't agree that it's 50/50?
I've worked for about 49 years now. And I have found that loyalty to a company does matter. That's probably part tif the reason you are a senior administrator. And no one's going to offer you a 7 figure job. I doubt that what you do is worth that.

That's the other thing too many people miss. There is value in what you do. But that value is in WHAT YOU DO. A janitor id not going to make as much money as an electrician. Or a senior systems analyst.

As I said, not every company is great to their people and not every boss is a good one. Let me repeat that for everyone's benefit. Not every company is great to their people and not every boss is a good one.

I don't know if we are going to get anywhere with this. If we can't agree that it's a 50/50 deal, company/employee then we don't have much more to say. If you are going to constantly blame the bosses and make them the bad guys then you have certainly fallen for the left wing propaganda and I am not going to change your mind.

In all my years of work, I have come to realize that employees are as much to blame as companies for poor performance.

So you don't agree that it's 50/50?
I've worked for about 49 years now. And I have found that loyalty to a company does matter. That's probably part tif the reason you are a senior administrator. And no one's going to offer you a 7 figure job. I doubt that what you do is worth that.

That's the other thing too many people miss. There is value in what you do. But that value is in WHAT YOU DO. A janitor id not going to make as much money as an electrician. Or a senior systems analyst.

I think here we're looking at a generational issue as well. You are solidly in the Boomer range where there was a social contract between company and employee. You could expect to work for 1, maybe 2 companies throughout your career and expect a decent retirement.

I'm on the older side of GenX (just turned 55) and I've been burned by my loyalty to various companies. When I was a senior in high school, I remember that we were told not to expect the career path that our parents held and that we would probably have 3 careers and 10 different jobs. I started off as in sales chemical engineer in 1991, IT in 2000, seminary 2006 and back to IT 2007. I started my third career in hospital IT services and communications. I'm now working for my 10th employer, and God willing, I'm done job hunting. However, I do work as a annual contractor for a hospital so there is no guarantee that the contract will be renewed each year. But to be honest, I'm an exhausted wreck.

You look forward to retirement. I don't expect that I'll ever truly be able to retire.