Empathy, feminism, and the church [women’s ordination]

zippy2006

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... the OP article partially represents the sort of thinking that provides one of several reasons why I don't join more "staunch" congregations of fellow believers. It's not as if I haven't tried to connect with them in amenable ways, but what invariably happens is that because of what is averred to and promoted by the church leaders as "the righteous way" all too often ends up reducing to a coercive effort by them to get folks like me to tow and parrot back the party line and, with a more or less sociopathic tinge, they've more than once implied "to hell with everyone's feelings [or to valid counterfactual knowledge] in the congregation it it differs from ours."

Yeah, I find invariably happens is that as I patiently attempt to communicate my point of view in such a congregation, animosity gradually builds up against me by those who realize I won't tow the party line, being the Existentialist and Evidentialist and Critical Realist that I am.

The main problem is that truth, goodness and reality are 'bigger' than what both the biblical writers and those of later tradition have expressed and apparently many people simply can't come to terms with that larger epistemic context.
The exact same thing happens on the left. In fact the left has made groundbreaking discoveries in sociopathic tribalism. But I would suggest watching the video to see if your expectations about these leaders are accurate. I found the video to be quite good. (Link)

The empathy movement, like progressivism, strikes me as deeply unintelligent. In fact as soon as any group takes any thing at all and places it on as high a pedestal as parts of the culture have placed empathy, rampant irrationality and harm emerges immediately. Aristotle's mean holds sway. There is no way to just dial up one aspect of life or emotion to 10,000 and win the game. It doesn't work that way.

As another example, 20-30 years ago there was a gigantic push for child safety, which soon enough led to the drastic rises in mental health and suicide rates among the young that Jonathan Haidt marshals. Life is an ecosystem, and if you put one part of ecosystem on steroids the ensuing imbalance is catastrophic.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The exact same thing happens on the left. In fact the left has made groundbreaking discoveries in sociopathic tribalism. But I would suggest watching the video to see if your expectations about these leaders are accurate. I found the video to be quite good. (Link)
I made a similar retort, but from another angle, in that other thread about Priestesses in the Church. I'm still waiting for folks to respond to it even after several years.
The empathy movement, like progressivism, strikes me as deeply unintelligent. In fact as soon as any group takes any thing at all and places it on as high a pedestal as parts of the culture have placed empathy, rampant irrationality and harm emerges immediately. Aristotle's mean holds sway. There is no way to just dial up one aspect of life or emotion to 10,000 and win the game. It doesn't work that way.

While I don't agree with Aristotle's mean, I do acknowledge that there's more than one brand of empathy and I don't think that women's leadership in the church is dependent upon extreme feminism to find justification.
 
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zippy2006

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women's leadership in the church is dependent upon extreme feminism to find justification.
Women's leadership in places like Anglicanism was a purely political maneuver. If you look up interviews from priests and bishops of that time you will not find any theological basis for those decisions, and many Anglican priests left when they realized that their Church had become a kind of NGO that must follow popular politics wherever it leads, without even a pretense of theological justification. Former Anglican bishop, Gavin Ashenden, regularly goes so far as to call the Anglicanism of recent decades "pantomime," a sort of outward show which simultaneously follows secular culture hook, line, and sinker. I have little respect for the Anglicanism of late. It is pretense and post hoc rationalization. It cares not for truth.
 
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The Liturgist

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As another example, 20-30 years ago there was a gigantic push for child safety, which soon enough led to the drastic rises in mental health and suicide rates among the young that Jonathan Haidt marshals.

Indeed, the rise of helicopter parenting. That said I have a good friend who grew up in the 1990s and graduated high school in the years following 9/11 and he did not experience helicopter parenting but had a very good childhood. Then within the a two year period 9/11 happened, his grandparents died and he graduated high school, so for him, the happiness of his childhood, and the fact that his parents did not keep him on too tight a leash, really helped give him something he could remember fondly during the dark days that followed.
 
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Women's leadership in places like Anglicanism was a purely political maneuver. If you look up interviews from priests and bishops of that time you will not find any theological basis for those decisions, and many Anglican priests left when they realized that their Church had become a kind of NGO that must follow popular politics wherever it leads, without even a pretense of theological justification. Former Anglican bishop, Gavin Ashenden, regularly goes so far as to call the Anglicanism of recent decades "pantomime," a sort of outward show which simultaneously follows secular culture hook, line, and sinker. I have little respect for the Anglicanism of late. It is pretense and post hoc rationalization. It cares not for truth.

But I'm not concerned about Anglicanism, and I say this while also not being a proponent of Progressive-ism.

In the meantime, I'll stick with Kroeger & Kroeger due to various hermeneutical and historical reasons they offer in support of women within the Church. If even half of what they've found is correct, then men in the traditional churches have overstepped their authority for way too long by making mountains out of the mole-hills found in Paul's writings regarding the social boundaries of women in the Church. Moreover, being that the New Testament is piecemeal and only provides fragments, its begging the question to demand that theological justification be laid out when there is so little on a topic like the place of position of women in Christ within the Church, and I don't think the OP defrays the implications of this lack.
 
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zippy2006

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I'll stick with Kroeger & Kroeger
Who? I'll stick with the consensus for the first 1800 years of Christianity. The Anglican story applies elsewhere: women "priests" are a consequence of cultural pressure, not Christian theology.
 
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Paidiske

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Additionally, in the case your church, I would assume (and correct me if I am wrong here) provides very good opportunities for women who feel called to serve in pastoral roles to do so. Also, please correct me if I’m wrong but internally in both Victoria and NSW, at least as far as your bishops are concerned, there has not been discrimination against you, I hope? Since my view on your church being an ideal place for women called to the ministry to serve is predicated on that assumption.
Hmm. Well, the reality is that while there are good opportunities, it is still often harder for women to get to the position of being offered them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen - it does - but it happens at low rates given the numbers of women clergy. We are over-represented in part-time, assistant, and chaplaincy roles; and under-represented in roles with a full time stipend, being "in charge" of a parish, or other more senior roles.

Discrimination against me by bishops in Victoria or NSW? Well, there's no possibility of being licensed as a priest in Sydney. So there's that. But outside that diocese, I would say no, I have not been discriminated against for being a woman by a bishop, to my knowledge, in those states. However, I have certainly been discrimated against by others. (Did I ever tell you the story of being kicked out of theological college while pregnant?)

But here I am, priest "in charge" of a parish, on a full time stipend, doing the work I'm called to do; and if there are things that I would like to improve, it still remains the fact that this is possible. So I would not use the word "ideal" to describe the local landscape for women in ministry, but I recognise that it is certainly a heck of a lot better than other places, or other denominations.
* I say unlikely but unfortunately I can not say such things are impossible, at least not in the US. I am aware of several instances where such things have happened in a wide variety of churches, ranging from mainline Protestant to Eastern and Oriental Orthodox.
The Presbyterian church here began ordaining women, and then stopped. (There's a lot more to that story, but that's for another time, perhaps). So while the women they had ordained remained in those roles, no more were ordained. That has been a very difficult thing for that community to wrestle with.
Women's leadership in places like Anglicanism was a purely political maneuver.
No, this is simply not true. I was around for some of that, in this part of the world. The diocese I'm serving in now only began ordaining women as priests in 2010.

It was not "purely political." It came out of profound conviction that this is what God was calling us (as the church) to do, after long reflection on the Scriptural witness to women in ministry in the earliest church, the long history of women's vocations throughout church history, and theological anthropology.
 
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The Liturgist

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(Did I ever tell you the story of being kicked out of theological college while pregnant?)

You did and I was horrified and disgusted by it. It reminded me of what happened to my friend Rev. Bolton, where the seminary took her money and she completed all the coursework but then they decided “whoops, we can’t give you the degree because you’re a woman.”
 
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The Liturgist

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But here I am, priest "in charge" of a parish, on a full time stipend, doing the work I'm called to do; and if there are things that I would like to improve, it still remains the fact that this is possible. So I would not use the word "ideal" to describe the local landscape for women in ministry, but I recognise that it is certainly a heck of a lot better than other places, or other denominations.

My view is that denominations that do ordain women should do it right.

I would take a very cynical view of a hypothetical denomination which engages in some token ordination of women but then relied on passive-aggressive coercion to discourage them, since such an act still could risk a schism in some churches, and at the same time its a dirty way to avoid a schism, since it effectively entraps women into wasting time (and potentially, quite a lot of money) on a theological education and seminary, and then denies them a proper career in the denomination, but it would let such a denomination pretentiously tick the diversity box and reap positive PR while mitigating the risk of internal discontent.

Note that in outlining such a hypothetical denomination, while I am reflecting on what you are saying, I am not thinking of either your denomination or the Presbyterians in Australia but rather a synthesis of the worst parts of your experience with the worst part of my friend Rev. Bolton’s experience.
 
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Paidiske

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My view is that denominations that do ordain women should do it right.

I would take a very cynical view of a hypothetical denomination which engages in some token ordination of women but then relied on passive-aggressive coercion to discourage them, since such an act still could risk a schism in some churches, and at the same time its a dirty way to avoid a schism, since it effectively entraps women into wasting time (and potentially, quite a lot of money) on a theological education and seminary, and then denies them a proper career in the denomination, but it would let such a denomination pretentiously tick the diversity box and reap positive PR while mitigating the risk of internal discontent.

Note that in outlining such a hypothetical denomination, while I am reflecting on what you are saying, I am not thinking of either your denomination or the Presbyterians in Australia but rather a synthesis of the worst parts of your experience with the worst part of my friend Rev. Bolton’s experience.
Quite.

I don't think that's what's happening here, exactly. I do think that part of the problem is that we still have a very patriarchal model of ministry; for example, we assume that married clergy have a spouse at home managing all the domestic and child-wrangling stuff, and freeing up the clergyperson to be totally available to the church. In my experience the church pays lip service to the idea of your responsibility to your family, but completely disregards it in the demands it makes of you. That doesn't always work so well for women, and so we find it harder to make our way in a world designed in a way that we (and our families) don't quite fit. And then they blame us as not being as "committed" or "serious" as the men!

And of course there are still gatekeepers along the way - seminary lecturers, examining chaplains, whomever else - who don't really support women and either place obstacles in our way, or don't help us the way they help the men. All unofficial, of course, but endemic, and the cumulative effect of that over time is real.
 
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Discrimination against me by bishops in Victoria or NSW? Well, there's no possibility of being licensed as a priest in Sydney

Indeed; I should have clarified that I did not mean to include Sydney, as we have talked about them before. For my part, it rubs me the wrong way that the clergy in their cathedral wear no vestments at all, not even a clerical collar. This is actually a violation of the canons of the Second Council of Nicaea, interestingly enough, since one of the hallmarks of the Iconclasts was a tendency to wear the Byzantine equivalent of very sharp business suits, like what we see at the cathedral in Sydney.

Also I would note their boys choir seems to have declined greatly since 2000 in terms of training and performance quality, leaving Christchurch as the city in Oceania with the best boys’ choir, and a girls’ choir, and they have held all this together in the Transitional Cathedral, although work is finally under way on rebuilding the old cathedral, with seismic reinforcements.

I find myself hoping they preserve the transitional cathedral or perhaps allow it to be sold and relocated elsewhere, if this is possible, which it might be considering much of the structure is built using an innovative cardboard design, and it was remarkably inexpensive.
 
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Paidiske

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I've visited the transitional cathedral; it was an extraordinary edifice. I really don't know what the lifespan of a cardboard building could be, though!

I am very sad at the way that the direction for that Cathedral has played out, (from what I understand of it from here), with the church being forced to rebuild the old cathedral rather than choose a new design which better suits contemporary needs and mission, but I suppose there is no point fighting a losing battle indefinitely.
 
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The Liturgist

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I've visited the transitional cathedral; it was an extraordinary edifice. I really don't know what the lifespan of a cardboard building could be, though!

Indeed. My thought is that it might be possible to salvage the non-cardboard elements and replace cardboard elements, since it is a fantastically inexpensive building material, and if that is the case, it might also be possible for it to be relocated or even stored, so as to function as an inexpensive pop-up church that could be deployed throughout New Zealand and other Anglican churches in the volcanically active Pacific, for example, the Church of Melanesia, in response to major seismic events, volcanoes and tsunamis. I am going to look into that. If not, at the very least, we know there is a design which can be replicated for an inexpensive interim church building for use in the aftermath of such disasters that is built largely using recycled cardboard, which can itself be recycled.

I am very sad at the way that the direction for that Cathedral has played out, (from what I understand of it from here), with the church being forced to rebuild the old cathedral rather than choose a new design which better suits contemporary needs and mission, but I suppose there is no point fighting a losing battle indefinitely.

There was considerable pressure from the community to rebuild the old cathedral, because its aesthetics were greatly loved by the residents, and I do have a lot of sympathy for that, because if the cathedral is rebuilt well, that would create a good relation with the community, and there has been massive outside pressure for the salvage of the building since the disaster occurred. Indeed even some random eccentric entertainer who pretends (or perhaps actually is from a new age perspective) a wizard who performed in the cathedral square managed to get written up in the Telegraph, the UK newspaper, calling for it to be rebuilt.

However, my understanding is that the rebuilt cathedral will include new facilities to improve its overall utility, for example, a diocesan office complex. Of course all this is expensive, and the project has already gone massively over budget after it was discovered the earthquake cracked the foundation, requiring it to be replaced (this is not surprising), but the diocese was under legal pressure as well as facing increasing public hostility over the planned demolition.

My own view is that they probably could have gotten a better result by agreeing to rebuild a cathedral with the same external appearance from the square, but had done the construction from scratch (and it was always planned to salvage the stained glass windows). The fear from the public that forced them into the extremely expensive rebuilding of the nearly destroyed cathedral, which seems almost on a par with the rebuilding of the Frauenkirche in Dresden in terms of how much of the building was destroyed, albeit in a city with a much smaller regional population and economy, was that the diocese wanted to build a cathedral which would have, from the outside, looked radically different, the sort of architectural disruption that King Charles III made a career opposing before his coronation. Now the old cathedral was not actually that impressive as Gothic cathedrals go, particularly compared to those in Australia, but it was arguably the best Gothic Revival cathedral in New Zealand, and the southern part of the South Island does seem to try to cultivate the feeling that one is in Cambridgeshire or Somerset, to the extent that Sir Michael Palin once joked in his travelogue Around The Pacific while punting down a river near Christchurch while someone nearby was on the bag pipes that he felt as though he was participating in an advert for the British Tourism Board.

But the upshot of this is that making the people happy will hopefully encourage visitors. A major utility of architecturally impressive structures is their ability to evangelize by virtue of their mere existence.

Indeed this why I am also keen to see the Transitional Cathedral kept around as long as it can safely be done, given in mind the lifespan of its concrete elements, as it has itself attracted visitors and been a really great success in terms of architectural evangelism given the low pricetag). But even if that proves impossible, the positive attention it garnered given its price is something that might be worth repeating, in terms of pure bang for buck, since it cost less than a third as much as a commercial at the Super Bowl in the United States cost this year. Even adjusting for inflation, I feel the group that spent money on a very controversial Super Bowl commercial would have done much better to build a church along the lines of the Transitional Cathedral.
 
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Paidiske

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There was considerable pressure from the community to rebuild the old cathedral, because its aesthetics were greatly loved by the residents, and I do have a lot of sympathy for that, because if the cathedral is rebuilt well, that would create a good relation with the community, and there has been massive outside pressure for the salvage of the building since the disaster occurred.
Yes. The frustration (at least when I was there, which was some time ago), was that the Cathedral community - those people who had worshipped in it daily and weekly for many years, and who were committed to and had sacrificed of their own time and energy and money towards its part in the Missio Dei - would have liked to have built something different, for very practical and sensible reasons to do with their ability to be missionally effective in the contemporary city. But they were, in effect, being held hostage by people who had never so much as set foot over the threshold, acting more out of sentimentality for the past (but no commitment to the church or its mission) but who used the secular courts to control what the church did. Which really is disappointing, and discouraging.

However. We are where we are, and now all we can do is pray that God use what is being built for His glory and the good of the city of Christchurch.
 
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FireDragon76

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See my post here.


It does not follow that empathy+respect = salvation. That's pretty basic Pelagianism.

The empathy fad in our culture is part of a collapse into the black hole of the self. It reorients the solar system around personal feelings, irrespective of whether those feelings are legitimate or true. Protestants say faith saves; Catholics say faith in love saves; folks in this thread say empathy saves.

Again, just watch the first few minutes in the video of the OP. It's remarkable that I am still responding to people who have never even looked at the OP.

This is lazy, unimaginative thinking.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Y'know. Kroeger & Kroeger ... ... I've mentioned Catherine Kroeger many times elsewhere and merely facepalming her arguments and her hermeneutical info really isn't a decisive blow to my stance, and I'll boldly say this even in the face of many centuries of "Church Tradition" since none of that is, as far as I can tell, withstanding.

I'll stick with the consensus for the first 1800 years of Christianity. The Anglican story applies elsewhere: women "priests" are a consequence of cultural pressure, not Christian theology.

As any good philosopher knows, so-called "consensus" doesn't run the rule of Reality. Reality remains just as it is whether we think differently about it, or mistakenly about it, or undergo our Copernican paradigm shifts in large numbers regarding it in the process of time. (Contra all of those allusions one might make to On the Heavens - Wikipedia)

And, what's more, I think the OP is quite mistaken in the attempt to identify the combination of empathy and women----in that synergy of terms----as a "watershed" issue. It isn't and never was .......................................... but, dogmatic Marxism (and various manifestations of Communism) on the other hand is a watershed issue and should be duly dealt with wherever it is found.

In fact, if I didn't think that the place of women in the ministry of the Church was such a minor issue, I'd analytical tear the OP article apart sentence by sentence and paragraph by paragraph. But, the truth of the matter is, it's not really worth my time. There are bigger fish to fry than this issue since, as I said before, it's not a watershed issue. And if we want to be nit-picky about it, we can look at what Paul says about the insubordination of women if they attempt to lead in the Church in the letter to the Romans in chapter 1 and see how it compares along with everything else in Paul's "laundry list" of things that nobody should approve of. ...............oh, wait! It's not listed there. :scratch:
 
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zippy2006

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As any good philosopher knows, so-called "consensus" doesn't run the rule of Reality.
As any good philosopher knows, consensus is an argument from authority, just as an appeal to "Kroeger and Kroeger" is an argument from authority. The 1800-year consensus argument just happens to be a much stronger argument from authority.

And if we want to be nit-picky about it, we can look at what Paul says about the insubordination of women if they attempt to lead in the Church in the letter to the Romans in chapter 1 and see how it compares along with everything else in Paul's "laundry list" of things that nobody should approve of. ...............oh, wait! It's not listed there.
So if Paul says X in a letter to Corinthians but he doesn't say X in a letter to the Romans, then X magically doesn't count? This is terrible, post hoc rationalization.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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As any good philosopher knows, consensus is an argument from authority, just as an appeal to "Kroeger and Kroeger" is an argument from authority. The 1800-year consensus argument just happens to be a much stronger argument from authority.
As history all too well shows, "consensus" is sometimes right and sometimes wrong. And an appeal to Kroeger & Kroeger is merely an appeal to additional facts that have feasible application. Of course, if you haven't read their arguments, then you can't say one way or another how cogent their arguments actually are.
So if Paul says X in a letter to Corinthians but he doesn't say X in a letter to the Romans, then X magically doesn't count? This is terrible, post hoc rationalization.

No. It's called utilizing and relying upon Hermeneutics and the Philosophy of History rather than on Pontifical Deduction, because we KNOW we don't have every word that Paul (or Jesus) ever uttered. So, it's a little dubiousness on your part to cite me for "post hoc rationalization" where the entirety of the experiences of the 1st Century church are historically fragmentary (and sometimes questionable and open to interpretation), AND for the fact that when I refer to what I'm referring to, I'm alluding to historical facts that apparently don't play a part in your own overall corpus of consideration where women are concerned within the Church.

But even so, we still have this in common: both you and I can bash overgrown Marxist and Communist rhetoric with equal aplomb and find some solidarity in that endeavor.
 
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zippy2006

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As history all too well shows, "consensus" is sometimes right and sometimes wrong.
Appeals to authorities are sometimes right and sometimes wrong.

And an appeal to Kroeger & Kroeger is merely an appeal to additional facts that have feasible application.
No, it's just an appeal to an authority. Appealing to facts or arguments would require presenting their arguments.

No. It's called utilizing and relying upon Hermeneutics and the Philosophy of History rather than on Pontifical Deduction, because we KNOW we don't have every word that Paul (or Jesus) ever uttered. So, it's a little dubiousness on your part to cite me for "post hoc rationalization" where the entirety of the experiences of the 1st Century church are historically fragmentary (and sometimes questionable and open to interpretation), AND for the fact that when I refer to what I'm referring to, I'm alluding to historical facts that apparently don't play a part in your overall corpus of consideration.
Do you believe that there was no good thief because he only appears in Luke? Where else do you apply such logic?

This is, prima facie, a very bad argument, "Paul doesn't doesn't discount women pastors in Romans 1, therefore women pastors are fine." Not only is the methodology invalid, but beyond that Romans 1 is not dealing with questions of the Church in any obvious way. There are other places in Paul's writings where he deals with questions of the Church explicitly. That is where we would expect him to speak to this issue, and that is where he does speak to this issue.

But even so, we still have this in common: both you and I can bash overgrown Marxist and Communist rhetoric with equal aplomb and find some solidarity in that endeavor.
I can drink to that! Actually I don't know if it is permissible for you to argue for women's ordination in the Traditional Theology forum, so I will probably leave off this topic rather soon.
 
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