Ellen White on the Sabbath

[Stryder06]

What is your take on this then?

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Hebrews 4:1-11 KJV
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Notice all those things about the 7th day? How is the passage not about the weekly 7th day rest then?

I fail to see your point. The use of the Sabbath in this text is an example of the eternal rest that Israel missed out on when they hardened their hearts against God.

 

[Stryder06]

Do as you please

By the way, Catholics do not believe nor teach that any pope (Peter excepted) wrote any inspired document, said any inspired words, operated with the gift of inspiration at any time in any place. Are you sure that you believe Ellen White was inspired? What does inspired mean to you?

Is this so? What about when a Pope speaks ex cathedra? That doesn't happen under inspiration?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is this so? What about when a Pope speaks ex cathedra? That doesn't happen under inspiration?

No. Ex-cathedra statements are never inspired (with the exception of saint Peter's letters).

 

[MoreCoffee]

I fail to see your point. The use of the Sabbath in this text is an example of the eternal rest that Israel missed out on when they hardened their hearts against God.

I see, so basically, you are ignoring the references to the seventh day in the text I quoted. Okay, but then why do you object when others ignore the 7th day reference in the third commandment?

 

[Stryder06]

No. Ex-cathedra statements are never inspired (with the exception of saint Peter's letters).

That's interesting. So what makes a declaration done ex cathedra infallible?

 

[Stryder06]

I see, so basically, you are ignoring the references to the seventh day in the text I quoted. Okay, but then why do you object when others ignore the 7th day reference in the third commandment?

No. I gave you an explanation of how it's used. If you don't want to accept the explanation then that's on you, but nothing was ignored.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That's interesting. So what makes a declaration done ex cathedra infallible?

The spiritual gift of infallibility.

 

[Stryder06]

The spiritual gift of infallibility.

Where is that gift listed in the scriptures? Or does that come from your tradition?

 

[MoreCoffee]

No. I gave you an explanation of how it's used. If you don't want to accept the explanation then that's on you, but nothing was ignored.

Okay, then the same applies to the explanations you've received about the liturgical elements in the third commandment. If you don't want to accept the explanation then that's on you, but nothing was ignored.

 

[Lysimachus]

MY argument is: she got it wrong, she misapplied Isaiah 13:12, perhaps because she didn't realise it was about scarcity rather than preciousness.

And my argument in turn would be, "she got it wrong....assuming she is not inspired"....no different than the fact that Matthew would have gotten it "wrong...had he not been truly inspired" either, concerning his "reapplication" of Hosea 11:1.

Now if you'd like to take this argument to a different level, regarding as to whether she meets the test of a prophet, we can always do that.

 

[Stryder06]

Okay, then the same applies to the explanations you've received about the liturgical elements in the third commandment. If you don't want to accept the explanation then that's on you, but nothing was ignored.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I stated that you've ignored anything. And who's talking about the third commandment? Thought we were talking about the 4th?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Where is that gift listed in the scriptures? Or does that come from your tradition?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

INFALLIBILITY: The gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church whereby the pastors of the Church, the pope and bishops in union with him, can definitively proclaim a doctrine of faith or morals for the belief of the faithful (891). This gift is related to the inability of the whole body of the faithful to err in matters of faith and morals (92).

891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful—who confirms his brethren in the faith—he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,”419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.”420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

92 “The whole body of the faithful... cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, ‘from the bishops to the last of the faithful,’ they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals.”55 (785)

785 “The holy People of God shares also in Christ’s prophetic office,” above all in the supernatural sense of faith that belongs to the whole People, lay and clergy, when it “unfailingly adheres to this faith... once for all delivered to the saints,”210 and when it deepens its understanding and becomes Christ’s witness in the midst of this world. (92)

 

[Stryder06]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

INFALLIBILITY: The gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church whereby the pastors of the Church, the pope and bishops in union with him, can definitively proclaim a doctrine of faith or morals for the belief of the faithful (891). This gift is related to the inability of the whole body of the faithful to err in matters of faith and morals (92).

891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful—who confirms his brethren in the faith—he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,”419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.”420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

92 “The whole body of the faithful... cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, ‘from the bishops to the last of the faithful,’ they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals.”55 (785)

785 “The holy People of God shares also in Christ’s prophetic office,” above all in the supernatural sense of faith that belongs to the whole People, lay and clergy, when it “unfailingly adheres to this faith... once for all delivered to the saints,”210 and when it deepens its understanding and becomes Christ’s witness in the midst of this world. (92)

Tradition. Got it. Thanks.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Tradition. Got it. Thanks.

Fiddler on the roof - Tradition ( with subtitles ) - YouTube

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

​

Tradition. Got it. Thanks.

Fiddler on the roof - Tradition ( with subtitles ) - YouTube

Tradition, can't live with it, can't w/o it

 

[Lysimachus]

They will try to tell you that Paul upheld "tradition".

What they fail to comprehend is that there is a vast difference between the "traditions of the gospel", or "traditions of the scriptures", or "traditions of the faith", or "traditions of Jesus", or "traditions of the Apostles" verses the "traditions of men".

When one compares the enormous amount of Church traditions in the Catholic Church, one does not find most of them among the Apostles. Such as Mass, Incense, Confessionals to Priests (Bible says confess your faults one to another, not to a priest alone--you confess it to the one you wronged--and that we are to forgive one another, not offer pardon for sin).

 

[Stryder06]

Fiddler on the roof - Tradition ( with subtitles ) - YouTube

Love that song...but I prefer

Fiddler on the roof - If I were a rich man (with subtitles) - YouTube

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Love that song...but I prefer

Fiddler on the roof - If I were a rich man (with subtitles) - YouTube

Will have to listen to that one

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:19 "There was a certain rich-man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day." (NKJV)

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.

This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

 

[Lysimachus]

Fiddler on the roof - Tradition ( with subtitles ) - YouTube

I confess, that was fun to watch.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I confess, that was fun to watch.

I like it

It has a message, albeit a message more about judaism than about Christianity, but the message is clear enough, traditions form us and give us a place in this world, they are not always right and they are not always understood but they help in most situations. Apostolic Tradition is something else, not quite the same as the traditions that Topol sings about, as important as those traditions are, Apostolic Tradition is revelation from God and as such is binding on the consciences of all God's people. A lot of Apostolic Tradition is written in the sacred scriptures, some is not, some is in the liturgy, some in the remembered lessons of the Apostles that their immediate successors wrote down and some in what they passed on to their own successors, and some is in the decisions of church councils based on all the sources mentioned above and also on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. In brief, we accept Tradition because it is from God.