Ellen White on the Sabbath

[Lysimachus]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Ellen White is still speaking about the passage from saint Matthew's gospel (Matthew 12:9-13), she speaks of the synagogue officials as spies, which is hardly likely to have been their role,

How do you know? Do you know for certain what their role is? Can you compare your human perception with Divine inspired perception? I think not. No wonder the majority of EGW critics out there do not bother with these strange, and bizzare nitpicky and straw-picking arguments.

they were in fact the officials who would normally attend the particular synagogue that Jesus attended on that 7th day (sabbath). It is clear their their intent was unfriendly as the evangelist notes with the words “And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.” So Ellen White's characterisation, while not accurate, is in keeping with their purpose.

[/FONT]

Have no clue what your point is here. You still have not proven that you know for sure what their "most likely" should be. Your speaking from human perception here, but no plain thus saith the Lord.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The remainder of the paragraph from Ellen White contains a series of statement about “false religion” which are, by and large, true enough but at the end of the paragraph Ellen misunderstands a passage from Isaiah, apparently thinking that the words “I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir” back up her statements about the gospel's placing “a high value upon humanity as the purchase of the blood of Christ, and it teaches a tender regard for the wants and woes of man.” The passage is, however, an oracle about Babylon and the verse that Ellen White quotes speaks of the scarcity of men in depopulated lands. If one were to take Ellen White's written works are prophetic in some sense then this kind of erroneous treatment of a passage ought not to happen. Even an ordinary commentary ought to pay attention to the context and not misapply a verse in an effort to bolster the author's theme.[/FONT]

Nah. Your argument here does not bear any weight. There's nothing in what you are saying. Ellen White is simply "drawing out" a spiritual principle from the passage, and putting it into a context for which it can also apply. Even Peter took the prophet Joel's words, and applied them to his day even though Joel 2 clearly incorporates the final day of visitation, which would be clearly 2000+ years from the days of Peter.

A prophet has the right, from the Spirit to take a principle, although originally applied in a different atmosphere, and re-apply it to yet another atmosphere. And it still can work.

The expression: "I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir" is unequivocally an expression that stands in its own "immediate context", regardless of the "extended context". Immediate Contexts have been used throughout the scriptures.

Notice what Matthew states:

"And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son." (Matthew 2:15)​

Where did Matthew derive this statement?

He got it from Hosea 11:1:

"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." (Hosea 11:1)​

If you continue reading the context of Hosea 11, it's retracing the history of Israel when Israel was brought out of Egypt, and then after sacrificed unto Baalim and burned incense to graven images.

If you were living in the days of Matthew, MoreCoffee, you would have accused Matthew of being a horrible commentator, taking out of context what the prophet Hosea was speaking of.

Yet the prophet Matthew was penetrated by the Holy Spirit, and extracted a statement by Hosea 11 that had an immediate application, and extended that immediate application by re-applying it to a completely different setting--referring to the Messiah as a babe coming out of Egypt when Mary and Joseph fled that country.

Thus we see how, a true prophet of the Lord, had EVERY right to do this if the Spirit guides them to it.

Thus we see that the faultiness of your statements have been EXPOSED. The arguments are a waste of time--arguments that I find erroneous and frivolous. Such charges in a court of law I think would put a jury to sleep.

 

[MoreCoffee]

How do you know? Do you know for certain what their role is? Can you compare your human perception with Divine inspired perception? I think not. No wonder the majority of EGW critics out there do not bother with these strange, and bizzare nitpicky and straw-picking arguments.

...

Ellen White was not inspired.

BIBLICAL INSPIRATION: The gift of the Holy Spirit which assisted a human author to write a biblical book so that it has God as its author and teaches faithfully, without error, the saving truth that God has willed to be consigned to us

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. “The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”

​

 

[Lysimachus]

Ellen White was not inspired.

BIBLICAL INSPIRATION: The gift of the Holy Spirit which assisted a human author to write a biblical book so that it has God as its author and teaches faithfully, without error, the saving truth that God has willed to be consigned to us

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. “The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”

​

If you do not believe she was inspired, then that is one thing. But so far, it appears that you are appealing to the arguments you have presented as "evidence" that she is not inspired. You feel she misapplied statements from the Bible. But I have given you one example where the NT prophets could be accused of misapplying OT statements as well.

And I should add, I could go through dozens of such examples, over and over and over again. I only gave you one.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...

A prophet has the right, from the Spirit to take a principle, although originally applied in a different atmosphere, and re-apply it to yet another atmosphere. And it still can work.
...

Ellen White was not a prophet.

PROPHET: One sent by God to form the people of the Old Covenant in the hope of salvation. The prophets are often authors of books of the Old Testament (702). The prophetic books constitute a major section of the Old Testament of the Bible (64, 120, 522, 2581). John the Baptist concludes the work of the prophets of the Old Covenant (721).

702 From the beginning until “the fullness of time,”60 the joint mission of the Father’s Word and Spirit remains hidden, but it is at work. God’s Spirit prepares for the time of the Messiah. Neither is fully revealed but both are already promised, to be watched for and welcomed at their manifestation. So, for this reason, when the Church reads the Old Testament, she searches there for what the Spirit, “who has spoken through the prophets,” wants to tell us about Christ.

64 Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all, to be written on their hearts.22 The prophets proclaim a radical redemption of the People of God, purification from all their infidelities, a salvation which will include all the nations.23 Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord will bear this hope. Such holy women as Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith, and Esther kept alive the hope of Israel’s salvation. The purest figure among them is Mary.

120 It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books.90 This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New.

522 The coming of God’s Son to earth is an event of such immensity that God willed to prepare for it over centuries. He makes everything converge on Christ: all the rituals and sacrifices, figures and symbols of the “First Covenant.”195 He announces him through the mouths of the prophets who succeeded one another in Israel. Moreover, he awakens in the hearts of the pagans a dim expectation of this coming.

2581 For the People of God, the Temple was to be the place of their education in prayer: pilgrimages, feasts and sacrifices, the evening offering, the incense, and the bread of the Presence (“shewbread”)—all these signs of the holiness and glory of God Most High and Most Near were appeals to and ways of prayer. But ritualism often encouraged an excessively external worship. The people needed education in faith and conversion of heart; this was the mission of the prophets, both before and after the Exile.

721 Mary, the all-holy ever-virgin Mother of God, is the masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time. For the first time in the plan of salvation and because his Spirit had prepared her, the Father found the dwelling place where his Son and his Spirit could dwell among men. In this sense the Church’s Tradition has often read the most beautiful texts on wisdom in relation to Mary.101 Mary is acclaimed and represented in the liturgy as the “Seat of Wisdom.”
​

 

[MoreCoffee]

If you do not believe she was inspired, then that is one thing. But so far, it appears that you are appealing to the arguments you have presented as "evidence" that she is not inspired. You feel she misapplied statements from the Bible. But I have given you one example where the NT prophets could be accused of misapplying OT statements as well.

And I should add, I could go through dozens of such examples, over and over and over again. I only gave you one.

You have misunderstood my posts. I am not disproving Ellen White's alleged inspiration I am merely examining what she says about the sabbath in the chapter I've mentioned.

 

[Lysimachus]

Nice way to avoid my argument. And by the way, who are you quoting? You're just copying words from someone's opinion as far as I can tell. No citations.

 

[Lysimachus]

You have misunderstood my posts. I am not disproving Ellen White's alleged inspiration I am merely examining what she says about the sabbath in the chapter I've mentioned.

But you have also gone beyond that, accusing her of taking Old Testament passages out of context and misapplying them.

 

[MoreCoffee]

But you have also gone beyond that, accusing her of taking Old Testament passages out of context and misapplying them.

She did misapply the passage I mentioned (Isaiah 13:12).

 

[MoreCoffee]

...No citations.

Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC).

 

[Lysimachus]

She did misapply the passage I mentioned (Isaiah 13:12).

So did Matthew with Hosea 11.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So did Matthew with Hosea 11.

They were inspired.

 

[Lysimachus]

Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC).

So your Catachism is "infallible" I see, but not Ellen White! Hmmm, I see!

You are failing miserably to impress me MoreCoffee.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So your Catachism is "infallible" I see, but not Ellen White! Hmmm, I see!

The CCC is not infallible, nor is Ellen White.

You are failing miserably to impress me MoreCoffee.

I am not interested in impressing you.

 

[Lysimachus]

They were inspired.

Okay then! Then that is your initial premise! lol. She is NOT inspired, therefore she cannot re-apply a passage from the Bible! Then may I ask why you go into great lengths showing the "nature" of her "reapplications", and how they are out of "context"?

Your argument should be then: "She is not a prophet, so she has no right to do these things"

Instead of: "She did these things, and therefore this goes to show that she is not of God".

You realize you have just contradicted your intents here?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ellen White misunderstands a passage from Isaiah (Isaiah 13:12), apparently thinking that the words “I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir” back up her statements about the gospel's placing “a high value upon humanity as the purchase of the blood of Christ, and it teaches a tender regard for the wants and woes of man.” The passage is, however, an oracle about Babylon and the verse that Ellen White quotes speaks of the scarcity of men in depopulated lands. If one were to take Ellen White's written works as prophetic, in some sense, then this kind of erroneous treatment of a passage ought not to happen. Even an ordinary commentary ought to pay attention to the context and not misapply a verse in an effort to bolster the author's theme.

 

[mmksparbud]

How do you know? Do you know for certain what their role is? Can you compare your human perception with Divine inspired perception? I think not. No wonder the majority of EGW critics out there do not bother with these strange, and bizzare nitpicky and straw-picking arguments.



Have no clue what your point is here. You still have not proven that you know for sure what their "most likely" should be. Your speaking from human perception here, but no plain thus saith the Lord.



Nah. Your argument here does not bear any weight. There's nothing in what you are saying. Ellen White is simply "drawing out" a spiritual principle from the passage, and putting it into a context for which it can also apply. Even Peter took the prophet Joel's words, and applied them to his day even though Joel 2 clearly incorporates the final day of visitation, which would be clearly 2000+ years from the days of Peter.

A prophet has the right, from the Spirit to take a principle, although originally applied in a different atmosphere, and re-apply it to yet another atmosphere. And it still can work.

The expression: "I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir" is unequivocally an expression that stands in its own "immediate context", regardless of the "extended context". Immediate Contexts have been used throughout the scriptures.

Notice what Matthew states:

"And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son." (Matthew 2:15)​

Where did Matthew derive this statement?

He got it from Hosea 11:1:

"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." (Hosea 11:1)​

If you continue reading the context of Hosea 11, it's retracing the history of Israel when Israel was brought out of Egypt, and then after sacrificed unto Baalim and burned incense to graven images.

If you were living in the days of Matthew, MoreCoffee, you would have accused Matthew of being a horrible commentator, taking out of context what the prophet Hosea was speaking of.

Yet the prophet Matthew was penetrated by the Holy Spirit, and extracted a statement by Hosea 11 that had an immediate application, and extended that immediate application by re-applying it to a completely different setting--referring to the Messiah as a babe coming out of Egypt when Mary and Joseph fled that country.

Thus we see how, a true prophet of the Lord, had EVERY right to do this if the Spirit guides them to it.

Thus we see that the faultiness of your statements been EXPOSED. The arguments are a waste of time--arguments that I find erroneous and frivolous. Such charges in a court of law I think would put a jury to sleep.

 

[mmksparbud]

Ellen White misunderstands a passage from Isaiah (Isaiah 13:12), apparently thinking that the words “I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir” back up her statements about the gospel's placing “a high value upon humanity as the purchase of the blood of Christ, and it teaches a tender regard for the wants and woes of man.” The passage is, however, an oracle about Babylon and the verse that Ellen White quotes speaks of the scarcity of men in depopulated lands. If one were to take Ellen White's written works as prophetic, in some sense, then this kind of erroneous treatment of a passage ought not to happen. Even an ordinary commentary ought to pay attention to the context and not misapply a verse in an effort to bolster the author's theme.

She did not missunderstand any such thing---you do not believe she was inspired, we do--her words are definately in context--if you can not understand that--that's your problem not ours--we have no problem here.

Jesus said "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord."----The original was speaking of manna (Duet 8) given in the wilderness to the Israelites. But Christ used it here when Satan said to command the stones to turn into bread.
The bible is full of verses being pulled out of their original story and used in a different manner to express a point---and most of the time they did not even bother to state where the passage came from (so they would be also guilty of plagerism, in your eyes!)--

I wonder if one could take the writings of the Popes, and others and have an SDA dissect them for where they are in error---I think that's a marvelous idea--we should start a thread for that--We've got a million and one ways were they certainly said stuff that was neither infallible, truth, nor inspired by God in our opinion. Trouble is--where do you start, there is just sooo much!---And how far back should we go?--Well, since EGW is said to be the start of our church, we should start with the first official pop, and I do not mean Peter--He is never mentioned in the Bible as being pope.
Any one out there want to go for it--My back would break as it would be terribly lengthy. I can't use the computer that long.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Okay then! ...
Your argument should be ...

MY argument is: she got it wrong, she misapplied Isaiah 13:12, perhaps because she didn't realise it was about scarcity rather than preciousness.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Lysimachus & mmksparbud is Ellen White as inspired as the bible?

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
I wonder if one could take the writings of the Popes, and others and have an SDA dissect them for where they are in error---I think that's a marvelous idea--we should start a thread for that--We've got a million and one ways were they certainly said stuff that was neither infallible, truth, nor inspired by God in our opinion. Trouble is--where do you start, there is just sooo much!---And how far back should we go?--Well, since EGW is said to be the start of our church, we should start with the first official pop, and I do not mean Peter--He is never mentioned in the Bible as being pope.
....

Do as you please

By the way, Catholics do not believe nor teach that any pope (Peter excepted) wrote any inspired document, said any inspired words, operated with the gift of inspiration at any time in any place. Are you sure that you believe Ellen White was inspired? What does inspired mean to you?