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MamaZ
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Read what God said to cain. Read what God declared as righteous when He created Adam and Eve.
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Read what God said to cain. Read what God declared as righteous when He created Adam and Eve.So How could God charge Cain? How could God have condemned those before the Flood? How could God have destroy Sodom? Why did kings think it evil to take Abraham wife? Explain these things if there were no law against them!
dollarsbill, Lysimachus is taking the same path that the Mormons did with polygamy; when the USA government threatened to send in the troops the Prophet had a revelation rescinding polygamy. The USA government would arrest SDAs who killed family members for sabbath breaking so they have a 'discovered' a biblical reason for not obeying the sabbath laws that Israel had.
I think that all religions take the same approach until they have political power and then they do what they think the bible, the qur'an, or whatever religious rules they have tell them to do.
OK I had to revisit this post on the argument "the man" in the Greek. My challenge is where else is "the man" mentioned in Scripture? And just who is "the man?"
I came up with I Tim 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
But the Greek only says anthropos Christ Jesus. It does not use the adjective "the." So some would argue that Christ Jesus is just a mere man like the rest of us and does not have a dual nature as in God and man. That would be great for some people's doctrine. However the Scripture clearly states Jesus is God. Remember the argument of John 8:58? The Jews understood this very plainly and sought to kill Jesus for blasphemy. Jesus is called the second Adam (second man). Jesus the man came into being without sin. Jesus' Father was not a man, but God. Jesus is the only begotten man (Son of God - Jn 1 and 3). All others were made by God.
But Jesus says "the man." Who is "the man?" "The" is a specific and exclusive article and not an inclusive article used as an adjective to identify. Most other verses I checked have some other adjective identifying anthropos such as every, no, a, that, this, righteous, etc. Some of these mean to identify a certian but not exclusive man. But the the identifies an exclusive man. Jesus is and was like no other man. Jesus is a supernatural man not having the seed of a man and only the seed of a woman Gen 3:15. This is very abnormal and no one else but Jesus can claim this fact.
So my question is did this slip by the Jews and us? It certianly is miniscule and very common speech. But the eyes (understanding) of the Jews was blinded. Is ours to also blinded? Thinking about it some I can see how the language experts failed us here. Men are dense and hard to be convinced of thing that are contrary to us naturally.
I think that Jesus really said the sabbath was made for Me (God) the God-man and the God-man (Me - Jesus) not made for the sabbath. That would be absolutely true.
Yep ya can argue the literal words all ya want. Is there something about the natural man understanding spiritual things? I say let the spiritual eyes be opened.
I can not say thank you enough for pointing out the Greek says "the" man in MK 2:27.
bugkiller
Yes--you're absolutely right. Anytime a religious power gets political authority, they demand their religion be obeyed---As the Catholic church did for so long, then the protestants gained control and slaughtered the catholics, then the catholics gained control again and they slaughtered the protestants.---That's why not one single denomination should ever get ahold of political power where they can enforce their religious believes on everyone. And it certainly is what Islam does.
It will be very interesting to see how this post is responded to by the pro law camp. If they dare. I have noticed that there has been a few hours since posting. Let us give it some more time.
I hope you bring it up till they do respond.
Without discussing the doctrines of your church this can not be answered. Your post assumes I believe what you beleive. That gets in the way. I do not want to be reported for discussing your church doctrine for flaming. So very sorry.I'm not sure my poor brain can follow this--are you saying that Jesus Christ, when He made the sabbath and sanctified and hallowed it--He sanctified it for Himself, because when Jesus Christ on earth said that the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath He again meant Himself?? The greek says "the" man, not just man?--I don't have a Greek bible. So, assuming that you are correct and it says "The" it can only mean that it was made exclusively for Jesus only??----Why?---Jesus is both man and God when He was born. He had both natures. So the sabbath was made for his human nature, and His divine nature? Or it was made just for His human nature?--So Christ, when He made the sabbath, knowing He would one day be human and divine set aside a day of rest for His human side? But then, if that is true, He still set it aside for all men as He was setting a day of rest that He knew man would be needing--even Himself, for His human nature left Him weak, tired, sleepy, hungry, and in need of rest from from the everyday struggles and needed to have a day to spend with The Father as all men need.
Interesting idea.
It isn't just worldly political power that is abused in religion the power to excommunicate (disfellowship) is also open to abuse and I feel sure that Desmond Ford felt abused when the SDA church kicked him out and kicked out many others who questioned Ellen White's writings. So, don't be too hasty to dish out condemnation to Catholics and main-line Protestants; even your own denomination has its own record of injustice. Which makes me wonder why so many people are keen to judge churches by the most unjust actions of leaders within the church? It is as if Christ only works among practically perfect people and leaves the rest to wallow in injustice and sin, and I do not believe Jesus is like that, do you?[/quote
Right again--I was just agreeing with you. It's called, human nature. When I was seeing my present husband, my pastor asked me why I wasn't running away from him like the plague (he knew he was alcoholic.)--The whole church new what I was doing and I was wondering if someone was going to bring up kicking me out of the church, I worried about it, but nobody ever mentioned it and I kept on going with him and married him. To tell you the truth, I had wished somebody would have threatened me with it, put me on the spot, force me to choose between my God or this man--I choose the man, but I was never openly put on the spot, so I could basically lie to myself and tell myself that I never really had to choose. I went against God, just not in public, sort to speak. And, trust me, I've often asked myself, if somebody had put me on the spot like that, face it--what would I have done--I did not in any way want to leave my church. I felt like I sort of got away with it, and felt somewhat dissappointed by them.---there is no one dumber than a woman who thinks she's in love!!! Might as well talk to the wall.
As far as I know, there have been few people that were kicked out of the church--I've been around when some people got some crazy idea in their head and no amount of talking about it would shake them and they had to keep on harping about it and we asked the pastor to ask them to leave, they left on their own. One arguement was about not knowing when Christ returns--they insisted that the angels certainly did know, even though we showed them the verses about it, we prayed, and prayed for them --they, for some stupid reason, wouldn't let it go and they harrassed everybody about it--it was driving even me nuts and then they quite coming (thank you Lord!)--I don't know if David Koresh was asked to leave or left on his own--either way, I was glad he was not with us anymore!! You could see the writing on the wall with that one.
Most people who decide they do not believe in EGW decide to leave on their own--that's like a
catholic saying they don't believe in the pope--then why be a catholic??
When people do not agree with what the church teaches, most people just prefer to find another church that is more in line with what they believe.
Yea gads---how many times must we say that the keeping of the law will not save anyone?????-----Love for God and others is what Christ said--and He also said "On these 2 commandments, hang all the law and the prophets."---All the commandments hang on those 2. And Christ said that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath--and who made the 4th commandment???---it was Christ, He was the one that created everything and made the sabbath from the very beginning at creation week for man.
He should know!!
The light that shone on the 4th commandment that EGW saw was because that is the one commandment that has been rejected and trampled on the most.
We are sons and daughters of God, always have been--but yes, as Christ came to serve and not be served, so are we to serve others--But we were made as His children, adopted by God, and when we love Him, we automatically do what that love for Him says. The commandments show how we are to love God and others.
Romans 5:14--"Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses even over them that had not sinned after the similitute of Adam's transgresion who is the figure of him that was to come."----After the similitute of Adam's transgresion--His transgresion was different from all others--He disobeyed God's command to not eat of the fruit of the tree--no other has commited that sin. Adam and Eve had a special commandment, Don't eat the fruit of that one tree.
Technically you are correct. Now where is that verse where an apostle instructed us to keep the sabbath?
bugkiller
On Jesus' claim of the Sabbath. On that fact that He made it holy. Are we not the reverence that which God Himself made holy?On what basis is the above statement made?
bugkiller
It wasn't addressed to me.Coffee--You missed this one.
Highlighted for you. We, God's people can ignore what God has sanctified and be without sin? Moses could not even walk on holy ground with his shoes on but we can trample on holy sanctified and blessed time with great disregard? Is that what God expects, requires desires?2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created [a]and made.
Wait a minute! If we rest on Sabbath it is of works but if you keep Sunday it is not works? We don't do anything but seek to worship God and it is works? You seek to worship God on Sunday and it is not works? Come on.It is a work because you insist it has to be done and preach it. It is trying to work the law in your life.
Only in your minds eye. First most Christians do not keep Sunday after the manner of the law concerning the sabbath. Sad truth is neither do you. NTL the keeping of the sabbath is a work (requirement) of the law which no one in the NT required of Christian believers except those having no authority to demand such. They were told no the law is not applicatible to the Christian (Gentile). BTW there are neither Jews nor Gentiles (Greeks) in Jesus Christ. Gal 3:28Wait a minute! If we rest on Sabbath it is of works but if you keep Sunday it is not works? We don't do anything but seek to worship God and it is works? You seek to worship God on Sunday and it is not works? Come on.
That is folly.
Probably as many times as we must say and prove that Jesus and Moses had no conversation at Mt Sinai.Yea gads---how many times must we say that the keeping of the law will not save anyone?????-----Love for God and others is what Christ said--and He also said "On these 2 commandments, hang all the law and the prophets."---All the commandments hang on those 2. And Christ said that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath--and who made the 4th commandment???---it was Christ, He was the one that created everything and made the sabbath from the very beginning at creation week for man.
He should know!!
The light that shone on the 4th commandment that EGW saw was because that is the one commandment that has been rejected and trampled on the most.
We are sons and daughters of God, always have been--but yes, as Christ came to serve and not be served, so are we to serve others--But we were made as His children, adopted by God, and when we love Him, we automatically do what that love for Him says. The commandments show how we are to love God and others.
Romans 5:14--"Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses even over them that had not sinned after the similitute of Adam's transgresion who is the figure of him that was to come."----After the similitute of Adam's transgresion--His transgresion was different from all others--He disobeyed God's command to not eat of the fruit of the tree--no other has commited that sin. Adam and Eve had a special commandment, Don't eat the fruit of that one tree.
So what do you think about the idea Lysimachus brought up concerning the word "the" found in the Greek referencing man the sabbath was made for? Then perhaps we can discuss its implications and impact on the truth.I'm not sure my poor brain can follow this--are you saying that Jesus Christ, when He made the sabbath and sanctified and hallowed it--He sanctified it for Himself, because when Jesus Christ on earth said that the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath He again meant Himself?? The greek says "the" man, not just man?--I don't have a Greek bible. So, assuming that you are correct and it says "The" it can only mean that it was made exclusively for Jesus only??----Why?---Jesus is both man and God when He was born. He had both natures. So the sabbath was made for his human nature, and His divine nature? Or it was made just for His human nature?--So Christ, when He made the sabbath, knowing He would one day be human and divine set aside a day of rest for His human side? But then, if that is true, He still set it aside for all men as He was setting a day of rest that He knew man would be needing--even Himself, for His human nature left Him weak, tired, sleepy, hungry, and in need of rest from from the everyday struggles and needed to have a day to spend with The Father as all men need.
Interesting idea.
It has been pointed out that is not quite what Jesus said and by the pro law camp, too!!!!O! He worked so hard that He needed rest? What does Jesus mean when He said that Sabbath was made for man? Do you supersede Jesus? Mark 2:27
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