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Ellen White: Inspired?

biblelesson

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Penance is not to repent. They are two diffrent words, with two different meanings.
Why are you using the word penance in place of the word repent in the scripture? God said to repent. He did not say to do penance.

Repent - feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin - this is a Godly sorrow.

Penances- voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong - this is based on self and works based; with no Godly sorrow attached
 
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bbbbbbb

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I take that as a positive answer to my question. Thank you.
 
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BobRyan

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first of all this is a non-SDA thread. Not an SDA thread.
Secondly it is Catholic source documents that you appear to object to - as they are what has been referenced on this thread.
Thirdly you also seem to object to the fact that some non-Catholic writers do not agree with positions held by the Catholic church in her own historic statements and doctrinal positions.
One of the marks of a prophet is that they do not contradict the word of God.
If they do, that would make them a false prophet and unworthy of allegiance or study.

Amen to that..

We call it "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice - which is the basis upon which we also evaluate the teachings of the RCC
She contradicts the word of God by degrading confession and penance.
whose "confession and penance"?? the Bible's ? or the Catholic Church's?
She doesn’t like the Catholic practice and believes it to be false?
I think that is an accurate statement.
That does not give her the right to directly contradict God in His word.
True. And it is also true that you did not show her doing any such thing.
A true prophet would have incorporated the scripture in her argument and showed how it was being violated, but she did not do that.
If you read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation you will find that prophets (like Jonah for example) do not always engage in a Bible study while correcting doctrine and practice. (See Gal 4 and 1 Cor 5 for other examples of this)

She went for direct contradiction;
You have yet to show that.
Confess your sins one to another James 5:16
Not private sins - but ones committed against another person as Christ informs us in Matt 6 in the Lord's prayer

"forgive us our debts as we forgive those who sin against us"

More Bible - less skimming over Bible details please.


Eccl 2:22 For what does a person get in all his labor and in his striving with which he labors under the sun?
Luke 13:3 No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Job 4:26 Therefore I retract, And I repent, sitting on dust and ashes.”

None of that is "penance"


Exactly
 
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The Liturgist

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Not true about "close enough" - according to a Waldensian community that settled in North Carolina and built replicas of the Piedmont area where they were persecuted and "exterminated".

The Piedmont Easter, which is the genocidal event you refer to, was perpetrated by the Roman Catholics and had nothing to do with the Calvinists. If you visit the Waldensian community in North Carolina, you will discover their church, which has an ethnically Waldensian pastor, is a parish kirk of the Presbyterian Church USA.

Methodists are not Calvinist.

Untrue, historically there has always existed Calvinist Methodism, embodied in the likes of George Whitefield and the Countess of Huntingdon’s Connexion, and also Methodism and Calvinism tend to be close enough in praxis, if not high theology, that the Waldensians becoming Methodist in the process of becoming the main Protestant church in Italy is not in the least bit shocking. In my youth my experience was the local UMC church usually had the best relations with the local PCUSA church.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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When did the SDA adopt this new position?
I am assuming you are talking about abortion. the date was 1984. It was passed in an executive committee a board meeting, rather then the General Conference Session. The whole church did not vote on this. Adventism has gone through a revalution of Sorts. As they SDA church as become more educated, they have become less dependent on EGW. EGW holds say over people who are not as educated. they are more liberal in the upper levels of the Church. They don't tell people that. This of course is the Greatest generation and the Baby Boomer's I am talking about. the GenX and Millenals and Gen Z are something else. They are dropping out like flies or not stepping up at all.
 
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you seem to not understand either definition

Repentance is the act of repenting. It is reviewing one's actions, and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs, which is accompanied by and commitment to actual actions with show and prove a change for the better. It is not just feeling sorrow, but actually changing behavior.

Penance is any act or set of actions done out of repentance for sins committed.

you have produced a false dichotomy in your definitions

The Bible does say faith without works is dead. It also says that not everyone that says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those that DO the will of my Father. We are not saved by our works, rather salvation working within us is expressed by our works. Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments. That requires work and not lip service
 
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RE penting is to Pent again
 
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biblelesson

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Which scripture in the Bible show acts of penance? What acts did John the Baptist and the disciples do to show acts of penance?
 
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anetazo

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The last prophet was John Baptist and Jesus. Christian people are disciples of God. Apostle means = discipline. Get the picture. Matthew chapter 7, Jesus warns us of sheep in wolves clothing. Are we catching on?. There's many false preachers running around. BEYTH KAR in Hebrew means = house of pasture. The false preachers are not nourishing the flocks. Money is their agenda. Have you looked at net worth of Joel olsteen or pat Robertson?? Wake up !!. MIKSHOL in Hebrew = Stumbling Block.

The false preachers or motivation speakers keep the flocks on milk. They are deprived of the Meat of God's word. James chapter 1, All wisdom and knowledge comes from God. Someone is getting the short end of the stick !!.

PANOURGIA in Greek means = crafty, trickery. False preachers prey on ignorance. God can open eyes to understand mystery of God, the meat of God's word, if person Sincerely asks God. In second samuel, king David was being punished by God for major sins he committed. But David saw through the craftiness of devious individuals he came across. Practice spirtual discernment !.
 
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Richard.20.12

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I haven't read much of her but what I did read seemed like trite rubbish. She tries to write with authority and falls flat. It seems so fake. You'd have to be almost illiterate not to notice her pumped up writing style.

She fictionalizes Bible stories inserting volumes of information that is not in the Bible. In short, she makes stuff up.

She claims to have received visions. Yeah? Well name one specific prophecy of hers that came true. Actually you better name a bunch because she prophesied a lot, much like Nostradamous so by sheer volume something must come true. A broken clock is right twice a day. To me much of the SDA movement is sensible and down to Earth. They sure are bang on in regards to the Sabbath but so are the Messiacs who seem very Biblical with their priorities straight. Why they hold this fruitcake in such high regard is a mystery. It makes no sense. I notice Doug Bachelor hardly mentions her. Thankfully. Because he has some great messages. He sure seems to represent the SDA's well.

Apparently her view of the Trinity varied during her lifetime. I don't know why they even mention it. When Jesus said "I and my Father are one" it's pretty clear. The use of the plural in the Creation is another tick for Trinity. The way the Holy Spirit is so integrated into the Godhead is another. The only differential I see is when asked when the end times were Jesus said that only the Father knows. What do the strong Trinitarians say about that? It would be nice if the Bible explained that but when it's not explained that probably means God wants us to ponder it to get more depth of understanding.

SDA's seem to have a slightly different view of the aspect of temptation and Jesus. They seem to feel that Jesus was closer to man than most Christians do. I think if Jesus was remotely close to man He would have fallen into sin. He was on this Earth for 33 years. That's a lot of time to screw up! Yet when you read the New Testament it's very clear He was not even close to being a man spiritually.
 
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Richard.20.12

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I would think anyone inspired by God would sure write better than the blather White wrote. It's very telling. I can't believe she is respected at all. Let's hear what she prophesied and when. Please.
 
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Richard.20.12

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"The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her."
This has got to be one of the most egotistical statements any religious organization has ever uttered. Only people that don't read their Bible could be fooled by such words. The Bible warns us repeatedly that ALL people sin. We are all flawed and have our weaknesses. So to say such a thing just contradicts and trivializes the Bible. But what do Catholics care? They don't read their Bible. They go to Mass and say Hail Mary a few times, or pray by repeating words so many time it's like a trance, then pop into the confessional (are there confessionals in the Bible???) and their slate is wiped clean, except no one can forgive sins but God. Oops! How can one organization get so many things wrong? It's truly mind boggling.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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please clarify this. what makes that egotistical statments. it is untrue. I am not sure who you are upset about, the reality of the statement or that the SDA's made the statment.

 
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The Liturgist

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I am not Roman Catholic, but I have to say, these polemics against them are mean-spirited. Roman Catholics do read their Bibles, indeed, they receive an automatic indulgence for reading the Bible, and the Bible is read in the vernacular at every mass, even the exquisite traditional Latin masses that Pope Francis is trying to abolish. And regarding confessionals, these are not needed for the sacrament of Confession, which Martin Luther also regarded as a sacrament, and Anglicans also do confession, and the Orthodox have a similar practice called Reconciliation albeit without mandatory penances, and the old fashioned confessional booth one sees in films are so rare that in all the Roman Catholic churches I have visited in my lifetime, even cathedrals in Europe, I have yet to see one of them. They were invented probably in the Baroque period, having a design typical of Mannerist or early Baroque Italian architecture, and were becoming rare by the 1960s, and those that remained were mostly removed after Vatican II. Many Catholics do see the priest and are able to make eye contact with him when going to confession. And also it is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church and all other such churches that God is the one forgiving the sins, ultimately; the priest pronounces absolution exercising the power to bind and loose that is granted in Matthew 16:18. Actually, the only Roman Catholic doctrines that I disagree with are those related to Scholastic theology, which were adopted along with Papal Supremacy during the split with the Eastern Orthodox, but even here the Catholic Church has largely amended things.

I wish that you would respond to criticism of the Adventist church rather than attacking the Roman Catholic Church. Indeed the main reason I find myself debating Adventists so frequently is because these attacks against a caricature of the Roman Catholic Church, combined with the fact that the Adventists arguably adhere to works righteousness and are arguably not sola scriptura, due to the emphasis placed on observing the Law and on the infallible interpretations of Scripture by Ellen G White, whose writings are more authoritative for Adventists than anything in the Roman Catholic magisterium, leave somewhat of a bad taste in my mouth. Some Adventist members of the forum do not get involved in these endless polemics and I have a great respect and affinity for those members, for they recognize that you will not convert people through argumentation. Thus, in responding to you, I can’t hope to convert you to my denomination, or the Roman church, or any other denomination, but that is not my goal; my goal is to try to communicate the degree to which these polemics are misguided and pointless.
 
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Richard.20.12

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please clarify this. what makes that egotistical statments. it is untrue. I am not sure who you are upset about, the reality of the statement or that the SDA's made the statment.
> I am not sure who you are upset about, the reality of the statement or that the SDA's made the statment.

I'm upset about the gall of the Catholics to think they have the authority to change something clearly stated in the Bible. The word Catholic isn't even in the Bible. Peter probably didn't even go to Rome to "found his church" for the Catholics. It's really time we help Catholics up to examination. They have twisted and distorted Christianity long enough because they have drifted far from the Word and so many Catholics spend no time in their Bible. The whole organization is focused on the leaders in the church and Mary. Funny but I don't see that in the Bible. In the Bible the focus was on Jesus. Pure and simple. Not someone Jesus himself referred to as "Woman" instead of mother. She was a sinner just like everyone around Him and I believe that is precisely why He used that word. It puts her in her place and rightfully so. Perhaps she was trying to use his authority to raise her social standing. Right after that she says to them to do what He says. Like was that necessary? Would she say that if she hadn't given birth to Him? I doubt that. It certainly is a fascinating part of scripture. But the more you analyze it the more twisted Catholicism appears. Can you imagine if a Catholic church of today was addressed in Revelation as the 8th church? Can you imagine the dressing down it would receive? Visually the whole thing would be sliding into the Lake of Fire.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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please clarify this. what makes that egotistical statments. it is untrue. I am not sure who you are upset about, the reality of the statement or that the SDA's made the statment.


> I am not sure who you are upset about, the reality of the statement or that the SDA's made the statment.

I'm upset about the gall of the Catholics to think they have the authority to change something clearly stated in the Bible.
They would answer with 'the key" were given to Peter and the apostles "to bind and loose"

The word Catholic isn't even in the Bible.
the word is universal in Latin
Peter probably didn't even go to Rome to "found his church" for the Catholics.
Rome came to Peter. there were delegations that came to Passover and Pentacost and went back to Rome. That is how the Church of Rome was founded. Peter eventually went there and gave 5 sermons that are now the book of Mark. Then he was be headed.
It's really time we help Catholics up to examination. They have twisted and distorted Christianity long enough because they have drifted far from the Word and so many Catholics spend no time in their Bible.
While I agree with you that there is error in the Catholic Church and it is corrupt. but many of the things they teach are biblically based. More then protestants think. I would refer you to the "saint Paul center for Biblical Theology" Run by Scott Hahn. He give biblically based answers on the Catholic faith.

The whole organization is focused on the leaders in the church and Mary.
It is true. they go to far with that. but it is base in History. the affirmation of mary was the way you affirmed the humanity of Christ. the early converts could believe in the divine aspect of Christ but not the human side. It was unfathomable to believe that the gods would be come human. honoring Mary was a way to do that.
I think you have some issue here that have nothing to do with Mary, need to do some introspection about that.

again some introspection would be go. Why are you so angry?
It is corrupt for sure.
 
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The Liturgist

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Rome came to Peter. there were delegations that came to Passover and Pentacost and went back to Rome. That is how the Church of Rome was founded. Peter eventually went there and gave 5 sermons that are now the book of Mark. Then he was be headed.

This is correct, except my recollection is that St. Peter was crucified upside down, just as his brother St. Andrew was crucified on an X shaped cross, as the two sons of Jonah felt it would be wrong to be crucified in the same way as Christ our God. However, St. Paul, as a Roman citizen, was beheaded outside the Pomerium, the sacred inner walls of Rome beyond which no weapons were permitted, and thus the Circus Maximus, one of the Curiae of the Senate, and the Colloseum, were all outside the Pomerium (this was not an option for executions that took place inside the Pomerium, like those of captured foreign leaders like Vercigenitorix of the Gauls, who if I recall like most Roman prisoners was strangled and thrown in the sewer in the Tullianum, the Roman execution chamber,, or certain other cases, such as Vestal Virgins who ceased to be the latter).
 
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Adventist Dissident

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ok I get perter and paul mixed up, but you are right.
 
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