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Ellen White, inspired author to SDA, on Picture idols

tall73

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I placed this in this forum because it deals with a question regarding the observation of the law, in regards to idols. Since this is the Sabbath and Law forum, it seems the most logical place.

The following is a statement by Ellen White from the Review and Herald, September 10, 1901. It discusses photograph idols.

“No Other Gods Before Me”

During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which have accumulated!”

As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols, taking up the time and thought which should be sacredly devoted to God.

These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be done at this time, to spend God's money in producing pictures of our own faces and the faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God's service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God's word.

This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols. We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Those who claim to believe in Christ need to realize that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind. The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration.

Christ looks upon a world filled with the din of merchandise and trade, with the dishonesty and scheming of buyers and sellers. In their desire to get gain, men have lost sight of the laws of justice and equity. “It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.” Satan has devised a multitude of ways in which to keep men from serving God. He has invented sports and games, into which men enter with such intensity that one would suppose a crown of life was to reward the winner. At the horse races and football matches, which are attended by thousands and thousands of people, lives for which Christ shed His blood are thrown away. What will become of the souls of the men and boys whose lives are thus extinguished? Will they be counted worthy of the redemption which Christ died to secure for them?

Looking upon these God-dishonoring scenes, Christ asks, “What is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” He calls the attention of men to the nobler world which they have lost from view. He points them to the threshold of heaven, flushed with the glory of the infinite God.

Those who have taken part in the solemn rite of baptism have pledged themselves to seek for those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God; pledged themselves to labor earnestly for the salvation of sinners. God asks those who take His name, How are you using the powers that have been redeemed by the death of my Son? Are you doing all in your power to rise to a greater height in spiritual understanding? Are you adjusting your interests and actions in harmony with the momentous claims of eternity?

Let there be a reformation among the people of God. “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.” Those upon whom the Lord has placed the burden of His work are struggling to proclaim the message, that souls perishing in ignorance may be warned. Can you not, by self-denial, do something to help them in their work? Arouse, and show by your unselfish zeal and earnestness that you are converted.

Every dollar is required in the work of saving souls. The money invested by the professed people of God in getting pictures made of human faces would support several missionaries in the field. Many small streams, when put together, swell into a large river.

We embezzle our Lord's goods when we use for selfish pleasure the means which should be used to proclaim the last message of warning. If you spend the Lord's money for self-gratification, how can you expect Him to continue to bestow His goods on you? How does the Master regard those who selfishly invest His money in photographs? That very money could have been used to purchase reading-matter to send to those in the darkness of ignorance.

The truth that God has given us must be heralded to the world. We have been given the privilege of doing this work. We are to sow the seed of truth beside all waters. The Lord calls upon us to practice self-denial and self-sacrifice. The gospel demands entire consecration. The necessities of the cause demand all that we can give. Our indulgence in photographs has been a selfish gratification on our part, which bears silent witness against us. By this indulgence a large amount of wood, hay, and stubble has been brought to the foundation, to be consumed by the fires of the last day.

After going from home to home, and seeing the many photographs, I was instructed to warn our people against this evil. This much we can do for God. We can put these picture-idols out of sight. They have no power for good, but interpose between God and the soul. They can do nothing to help in sowing the seeds of truth. Christ calls upon those who claim to be following Him to put on the whole armor of God. Our educational institutions need to feel the reforming power of the Spirit of God. “If the salt have lost his savor, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.” Those who are engaged as teachers in our schools and sanitariums should reach a high standard of consecration. And the students in these institutions, who are fitting themselves to go forth as missionaries, should learn to practice self-denial.

We are God's stewards, and “it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.” The money that God has intrusted to us is to be carefully husbanded. We are to increase in efficiency by putting to the best use the talents given us, that at God's coming we may return to Him His own with usury. Review and Herald, September 10, 1901

She does not suggest they are idols in the sense of worship, but in taking time, money and attention from God.

This message was from 1901, but pictures distracting from God, and taking money from God were not new themes for Ellen White. In 1868 the book Testimonies for the Church, Volume 1, was published, collecting together various testimonies she had written previously. Testimony 12 touched on the issue of picture taking.

The youth have their hearts filled with the love of self. This is manifested in their desire to see their faces daguerreotyped by the artist; and they are not satisfied with being once represented, but sit again and again for their picture, each time hoping that the last will excel all their previous efforts and appear really more beautiful than the original. Their Lord's money is squandered in this way, and what is gained? Merely their poor shadow upon paper. The hours that should have been devoted to prayer are occupied upon their own poor selves; precious hours of probation are thus wasted.

Photography was much more expensive then, than it is now. And of course, it was not like digital photography or even Polaroid instants. You may have to sit several times to get what you are looking for. To illustrate this, here are a series of letters from Ellen White to her husband James, relating her own sitting for pictures:

We received yours [i.e., letter] which contained the number of pictures to be sent. They are slow in getting them out. We send from Ingelson's seven each. We sent from Lathrop's and Dunham's, six each. You will see that Lathrop has the preference. I thought that mine from Ingelson's was perfect, but I did not think yours was good. I have just received half a dozen from Lathrop's and Dunham's of mine. It is the judgment of all that this last is far better than Ingelson's. What do you think? We have a few of the small size of yours, but none yet of mine....

Lathrop is as pleased a man as you ever saw with the pictures, especially of you. He says he would sell your negative for five hundred dollars. Beside what we take, it will bring him that much custom. He thinks Ingelson's a flat affair. He [Lathrop] has your picture in the window for show.—Letter 1a, 1876, p. 1. (To James White, March 24, 1876.)

In regard to our pictures, how many shall we order? Dunham gave me mine as well as yours—one dozen each. This is liberal, I think. Everyone thinks these last [pictures] from Dunham's are perfect. What is your judgment? Lucinda's are not yet finished. No orders, he says, were left for him, but one dozen will be finished in a short time.—Letter 3, 1876, pp. 3, 4. (To James White, April 4, 1876.)

I have just gotten the picture Dunham has made. I do not like it. Shall not order any till you see it and send your opinion of it.—Letter 12, 1876, p. 1. (To James White, April 21, 1876.)

In regard to my small picture, I did sit once again, but the picture was not good. Will try it again. Mary and Willie did not get good pictures, but they will try it again.—Letter 15, 1876. (To James White, April 27, 1876.)

I do not think I shall ever get a picture to equal the one Dunham has made for me. He says I had better have the large one put on a small card. What do you think of this plan?—Letter 17, 1876, p. 2. (To James White, April 30, 1876.)

Dunham gave me one dozen of these last pictures of yours. Shall I send them to you? What do you think of them? I told him I did not like them. They did not look natural, but you can use them. If so, let me know.—Letter 21, 1876, p. 2. (To James White, May 5, 1876.)


She relates that Lathrop would sell the negative for $500. Since this was in 1876, calculating for inflation, the cost would be around $10,700 in today’s money (can fluctuate depending on when you read the post)
1876 dollars in 2016 | Inflation Calculator

This does not tell us the price for each photo, but does give a hint as to the high expense of photography in that day.

Here we see her offering to pay for additional pictures at a later date:

Well, Addie [Walling], I would be pleased to have you get your picture taken and write to May [Walling] to do the same. I will settle the bills. I want to see the faces of my children once more.—Letter 101, 1886, p. 4. (To Addie Walling, July 21, 1886.)

Many families of the time, having spent so much money on the pictures, would display them. The Whites would, like most families, show their pictures:

If you have Father's pictures, please bring them. I want to show them. My pocket album I left at Healdsburg.—Letter 15, 1882, p. 1. (To W. C. White, May 23, 1882).

Father, I am sure, has confidence in you. We often hear him speak of you and Emma with pleasure in high terms. He shows your pictures and he calls you two his “canaries.”—Letter 22, 1879, p. 1. (To Edson White, July 1, 1879.)

She relates that this battle with idolatry was ongoing for years in the church.

We have for years been waging a war with spiritual idolatry. Scriptural conversions are not as abundant as we could wish. There are so many things put in the place where God should be, when He should have the entire room, and every nook and corner should reveal His presence. We have a constant contest with idolatry. Many things which gratify the lust of the eye are taking precious time and stealing away precious money. The senses are pleased, but God is robbed both of time and money. I am pained to see the photographs multiplied and hanging everywhere. Manuscript 40, 1891

 

tall73

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However, Ellen White did want to make sure to mention to Addie Walling, who she told she would pay for the photos Addie obtained, that pictures are not idols, and those who had them in the church were not engaging in idolatry:

It is a difficult matter for men and women to draw the line in the matter of picture-making. Some have made a raid against pictures, daguerreotypes, and pictures of every kind. Everything must be burned up, they say, urging that the making of all pictures is prohibited by the second commandment; that they are an idol. An idol is anything that human beings love and trust in instead of loving and trusting in the Lord their Maker. Whatever earthly thing men desire and trust in as having power to help them and do them good, leads them away from God, and is to them an idol. Whatever divides the affections, or takes away from the soul the supreme love of God, or interposes to prevent unlimited confidence and entire trust in God, assumes the character and takes the form of an idol in the soul temple. The first great commandment is, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.” (Matthew 22:37.) Here is allowed no separation of the affections from God. In 1 John 2:15-17 we read, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.” Now if the pictures made have a tendency to separate the affections from God, and are worshiped in the place of God, they are idols. Have those who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ exalted these things above God, and given their affections to them? Has their love for treasures filled a place in their hearts that Jesus should occupy? Have those who have burned up all their pictures of friends and any kind of pictures they happened to have, come up to a higher state of consecration for this act, and do they seem in words, in deportment, and in soul, to be ennobled, elevated, more heavenly minded? Is their experience richer than before? Do they pray more, and believe with a more perfect faith after this consuming sacrifice which they have made? Have they come up into the mount? Has the holy fire been kindled in their hearts, giving new zeal and greater devotion to God and His work than before? Has a live coal from off the altar of sacrifice touched their hearts and their lips? By their fruits you can tell the character of the work.—Manuscript 50, 1886, 3, 4. (“Economy,” July, 1886.)
 
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tall73

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At this link you can see a number of photos of Ellen White, and can access the searchable database of her photos:

Ellen G. White® Estate: Photographs


Here is the search page for Ellen White, with more photos:

Gallery | People

You can click on each picture to see the year.
 
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tall73

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Another Ellen White statement on photographs amounting to idolatry:

In many families the mantel-shelves, stands, and tables are filled with ornaments and pictures. Albums, filled with photographs of the family and the photographs of their friends, are placed where they will attract the attention of visitors. Thus the thoughts, which should be upon God and heavenly interests are brought down to common things. Is not this a species of idolatry? Should not the money thus spent have been used to bless humanity, to relieve the suffering, to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry? Should it not have been placed in the Lord's treasury to advance His cause and build up His kingdom in the earth? This matter is of great importance, and it is urged upon you to save from the sin of idolatry. Blessing would come to your souls if you would obey the word spoken by the Holy One of Israel, “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.” Many are creating unnecessary cares and anxieties for themselves by devoting time and thought to the unnecessary ornaments with which their houses are filled. The power of God is needed to arouse them from this devotion; for to all intents and purposes it is idolatry. He who searches the heart desires to win His people from every species of idolatry. The Bible Echo, January 14, 1901
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Hello tall,

Seems you wish to spend all your time discussing EGW. Is it because you have no scripture to share here in this forum in relation to God's law and the Sabbath using your bible?

All I have seen you do when confronted with scripture is to divert attention to EGW statements. When checked in nearly every case your statements were taken out of context or you have tried to apply an interpretation to them that they were not saying. Here you are trying to promote an OP suggesting that EGW is stating that phorogrpahy is idol worship.

Now I am sure that most honest people here will agree with me in saying that each one of us can make an idol out of anything in life if whatever we do takes our time and attention away from God, correct?

If you keep in mind here that the time and context of these statements, is when commercial photography had not been around for very long (Harvard photography timeline).

Do you think that just maybe for some people during this time period that photography may have become an idol to some who were practicing it as it was taking thier time and attentio away from God?

What is an idol?

It is anything that takes our time and attention away from God. If it is no longer taking our time and attention away from God then it is no longer an idol.

You are doing what you have done in the past and thatis taking EGW quotes out of context not considering time and place and applying an interpretation to them that they are not saying.

Anything we put before God that takes up our time and attention we make an idol of. Do you think you may be making an idol by looking to discredit the writings of EGW instead of spending time seeking God through his Word?

Can you prove your claims with God's Word?

I am sad for you.
 
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tall73

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Hello tall,

Seems you wish you spend all your time discussing EGW. Is it because you have no scripture to share here in this forum in relation to God's law and the Sabbath using your bible? Seems so.

She references the commandment against idols. That is in the Bible!

Here you are trying to promote an OP suggesting that EGW is stating that phorogrpahy is idol worship.

You are distorting what she said. What she said was that photographs are not idols, and that photographs are idols, and that photographs can be a species of idolatry for the members of the church who have them, but that those who have them in the church are not making idols out of them.

Now if they were idols why would she buy so many, and sit for so many pictures, and expend such resources? Obviously they are not idols, which is why she talks about all of the people spending so much on them, and making idols out of them.

You obviously didn't read the statements.


If you keep in mind the time and context of these statement the whole concept common place commercial photography had not been around for very long at the time of these statements you had provided to the average person (Harvard photography timeline).

Well now that is not true! I gave historical examples of those who did sit for photography a lot, and bought a lot--Ellen White and James White.

Are you not now making your idol looking to discredit the writings of EGW instead of spending time seeking God through his Word?

Are you saying Sister White is not talking about the Bible?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LGW wrote: Hello tall, Seems you wish you spend all your time discussing EGW. Is it because you have no scripture to share here in this forum in relation to God's law and the Sabbath using your bible? Seems so.
Now LGW, that is not true!
Actually, it is true. Look at all your posts and how many of your posts are scripture and how many are devoted to talking about EGW statements which you take out of context and apply an interpretation to them that they are not saying? Actions speak words do not.
LGW wrote: Here you are trying to promote an OP suggesting that EGW is stating that phorogrpahy is idol worship.
She references the commandment against idols. That is in the Bible!
She does but that is not what I was referring to. You are trying to make out that EGW views photography as an idol. That is not the case she says that some were making it an idol. This was already explained in the previous post which you ignored.
You are distorting what she said. What she said was that photographs are not idols, and that photographs are idols, and that photographs can be a species of idolatry for the members of the church who have them, but that those who have them in the church are not making idols out of them. You obviously didn't read the statements.
No you are distorting what she said. This is sad for you. Anyone can make idols of anything whether photographs, money, lovers of pleasure, or anything that takes our time and attention away from God and his Word. This was the essance of the EGW statements you posted. Yes I did read them and they are not saying what you are promoting. As time and context was when photographs were new and a novelty to the masses and for some had become an idol just like anything can take up our time and attention from God and his Word.
Well now that is not true! I gave historical examples of those who did sit for photography a lot, and bought a lot--Ellen White and James White.
No you didn't as outlined in only two posts I have provided, you distorted context and application of the messages given to those who were making an idol of photography at the time the messages were given.
Are you saying Sister White is not talking about the Bible?
Not at all. Do you have any scripture to share?
 
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tall73

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Actually, it is true. Look at all your posts and how many of your posts are scripture and how many are devoted to talking about EGW statements

Now LGW, don't you agree with this?

In the Scriptures God has set forth practical lessons to govern the life and conduct of all; but though He has given minute particulars in regard to our character, conversation, and conduct, yet in a large measure, His lessons are disregarded and ignored. Besides the instruction in His Word, the Lord has given special testimonies to His people, not as a new revelation, but that He may set before us the plain lessons of His Word, that errors may be corrected, that the right way may be pointed out, that every soul may be without excuse. (Letter 63, 1893.) (See Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 665.)
 
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dqhall

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At this link you can see a number of photos of Ellen White, and can access the searchable database of her photos:

Ellen G. White® Estate: Photographs


Here is the search page for Ellen White, with more photos:

Gallery | People

You can click on each picture to see the year.
One of the ten commandments is against making graven images or statues. I believe people need images/photos for records. They ought not worship photos. I do not have guilt over owning cameras, do I? Maybe I spent too much money on them.

Ellen G. White seems like a hypocrite telling people their photos are idols while ordering expensive photos for herself, unless at some point she stopped calling them idols and started using them more herself.

I used to think the Ellen G. White teachings about vegetarianism was worthless, I suspected she was not a prophet. It seemed like all Seventh Day Adventist people wanted to do was study Daniel and Revelation. Came a time in my life when I got really high blood pressure readings and prayed for help. That led to me read hundreds of pages about nutrition and heart health. I am almost vegetarian now.
 
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tall73

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No you are distorting what she said. This is sad for you. Anyone can make idols of anything whether photographs, money, lovers of pleasure, or anything that takes our time and attention away from God and his Word.

Such as those sitting over and over to get a better picture, and spending a lot on photographs, as she said the youth were doing?
 
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tall73

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Ellen G. White seems like a hypocrite telling people their photos are idols while ordering expensive photos for herself, unless at some point she stopped calling them idols and started using them more herself.

Well she was still calling them idols in 1901
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Such as those sitting over and over to get a better picture, and spending a lot on photographs, as she said the youth were doing?

Of course, this is what my posts were talking about and that is what the EGW statements were referring to.

Anything that takes your time and attention away from God is an idol. Photography to the masses was only a new thing when those statements were made.

If whatever you are doing does not take your time and attention away from God and his Word then it is not an idol. There is a difference.
 
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tall73

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Of course that is what the statements were referring to. Anything that takes your time and attention away from God is an idol. Photography to the masses was only a new thing when those statements were made.

But that cannot be right! Because Ellen White was sitting and taking them again and again to get better ones, and spending money on them. Obviously that is not what she meant!

We received yours [i.e., letter] which contained the number of pictures to be sent. They are slow in getting them out. We send from Ingelson's seven each. We sent from Lathrop's and Dunham's, six each. You will see that Lathrop has the preference. I thought that mine from Ingelson's was perfect, but I did not think yours was good. I have just received half a dozen from Lathrop's and Dunham's of mine. It is the judgment of all that this last is far better than Ingelson's. What do you think? We have a few of the small size of yours, but none yet of mine....

Lathrop is as pleased a man as you ever saw with the pictures, especially of you. He says he would sell your negative for five hundred dollars. Beside what we take, it will bring him that much custom. He thinks Ingelson's a flat affair. He [Lathrop] has your picture in the window for show.—Letter 1a, 1876, p. 1. (To James White, March 24, 1876.)

In regard to our pictures, how many shall we order? Dunham gave me mine as well as yours—one dozen each. This is liberal, I think. Everyone thinks these last [pictures] from Dunham's are perfect. What is your judgment? Lucinda's are not yet finished. No orders, he says, were left for him, but one dozen will be finished in a short time.—Letter 3, 1876, pp. 3, 4. (To James White, April 4, 1876.)

I have just gotten the picture Dunham has made. I do not like it. Shall not order any till you see it and send your opinion of it.—Letter 12, 1876, p. 1. (To James White, April 21, 1876.)

In regard to my small picture, I did sit once again, but the picture was not good. Will try it again. Mary and Willie did not get good pictures, but they will try it again.—Letter 15, 1876. (To James White, April 27, 1876.)

I do not think I shall ever get a picture to equal the one Dunham has made for me. He says I had better have the large one put on a small card. What do you think of this plan?—Letter 17, 1876, p. 2. (To James White, April 30, 1876.)

Dunham gave me one dozen of these last pictures of yours. Shall I send them to you? What do you think of them? I told him I did not like them. They did not look natural, but you can use them. If so, let me know.—Letter 21, 1876, p. 2. (To James White, May 5, 1876.)
 
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LoveGodsWord

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But that cannot be right! Because Ellen White was sitting and taking them again and again to get better ones, and spending money on them. Obviously that is not what she meant!

We received yours [i.e., letter] which contained the number of pictures to be sent. They are slow in getting them out. We send from Ingelson's seven each. We sent from Lathrop's and Dunham's, six each. You will see that Lathrop has the preference. I thought that mine from Ingelson's was perfect, but I did not think yours was good. I have just received half a dozen from Lathrop's and Dunham's of mine. It is the judgment of all that this last is far better than Ingelson's. What do you think? We have a few of the small size of yours, but none yet of mine....

Lathrop is as pleased a man as you ever saw with the pictures, especially of you. He says he would sell your negative for five hundred dollars. Beside what we take, it will bring him that much custom. He thinks Ingelson's a flat affair. He [Lathrop] has your picture in the window for show.—Letter 1a, 1876, p. 1. (To James White, March 24, 1876.)

In regard to our pictures, how many shall we order? Dunham gave me mine as well as yours—one dozen each. This is liberal, I think. Everyone thinks these last [pictures] from Dunham's are perfect. What is your judgment? Lucinda's are not yet finished. No orders, he says, were left for him, but one dozen will be finished in a short time.—Letter 3, 1876, pp. 3, 4. (To James White, April 4, 1876.)

I have just gotten the picture Dunham has made. I do not like it. Shall not order any till you see it and send your opinion of it.—Letter 12, 1876, p. 1. (To James White, April 21, 1876.)

In regard to my small picture, I did sit once again, but the picture was not good. Will try it again. Mary and Willie did not get good pictures, but they will try it again.—Letter 15, 1876. (To James White, April 27, 1876.)

I do not think I shall ever get a picture to equal the one Dunham has made for me. He says I had better have the large one put on a small card. What do you think of this plan?—Letter 17, 1876, p. 2. (To James White, April 30, 1876.)

Dunham gave me one dozen of these last pictures of yours. Shall I send them to you? What do you think of them? I told him I did not like them. They did not look natural, but you can use them. If so, let me know.—Letter 21, 1876, p. 2. (To James White, May 5, 1876.)

"DITTO"

Why was it an idol to her? Was it taking up all her time and attention away from God and his Word? An idol is something that takes up all our time and attention away from God and his Word. All your doing is the same thing you always do by spending all your time and attention trying to take EGW statements out of context and apply an interpretation to them they are not saying. This is sad for you.
 
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tall73

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Ellen G. White seems like a hypocrite telling people their photos are idols while ordering expensive photos for herself, unless at some point she stopped calling them idols and started using them more herself.

The OP contains statements saying such in 1868, 1891, 1901
 
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tall73

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"DITTO"

Why was it an idol to her? Was it taking up all her time and attention away from God and his Word? An idol is something that takes up all our time and attention away from God and his Word. All your doing is the same thing you always do by spending all your time and attention trying to take EGW statements out of context and apply an interpretation to them they are not saying. This is sad for you.

Are you asking me why Ellen White sat for so many pictures and are you asking if it became an idol to her?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The OP contains statements saying such in 1868, 1891, 1901

Your timing of the statements are irrelavent. Anyone can make an idol of something at any time making the statements relavent. An idol is something that takes up all our time and attention away from God and his Word. If it is not doing so then it is not an idol. It seems from the very statements you have posted that you do not know what an idol is.
 
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