Is the Sda considered to be Christian church based upon their own doctrines and practices?

[YeshuaFan]

Not true.

More than one person in Adventist history has received a message from God.

Do you know of an actual scripture saying "if only one person gets a direct divine message from God - then they are wrong"?

have you studied the subject at all?

Mormon's tithe - does that making all tithing groups "wrong" in our POV?

Have you studied the topic of prophecy from the actual Bible?

Ellen White ALONE though per the sda had the prophetic gifting, and received doctrines and practices all Sda must adhere to and with

 

[YeshuaFan]

It is true that in both OT and NT people did have the gift of prophecy and yet wrote no scripture.

It is true that we claim the the 1 Cor 12 gift of prophecy is valid even if someone is not writing scripture just as we see in the case of 1 Cor 14 for the entire church of Corinth.

And your point?

Point is that Ellen White per Sda was same as if one of the OT Prophets came along today to speak and write for revelations from God, while none saying gift of prophesy equates that for today

 

[BobRyan]

The Sda has elevated Ellen White to the position of being THE teacher

false -

We have pastors , teachers and also prophets historically ... and of course everyone in 1 Cor 14 was said to have a revelation from God.

Do you read the Bible on this topic?
Do you read actual SDA history on this topic?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

It is true that in both OT and NT people did have the gift of prophecy and yet wrote no scripture.

It is true that we claim the the 1 Cor 12 gift of prophecy is valid even if someone is not writing scripture just as we see in the case of 1 Cor 14 for the entire church of Corinth.

And your point?

Point is that Ellen White per Sda was same as if one of the OT Prophets came along today to speak

It is true that we accept the 1 Cor 12 Bible statement on prophets and we believe Ellen White had what 1 Cor 12 calls the gift of prophecy as we also see in 1 Cor 14 where everyone in the church "had a revelation".

OT prophets in some cases wrote scripture but a number of them did not. Ellen White wrote no scripture and is not at all added to the canon of scripture.

quote an actual SDA doctrine before making stuff up.
1. State something we actually believe (hint: quote from one of our official documents on our beliefs - don't just settle for making stuff up)
2. Point to something in the Bible that you believe refutes our stated position.

This just is not that hard.

You have a lot of posts on this subject thread and also the one in the SDA forum area - and still you have YET to give the basic 1,2 step obvious method a shot. Simply making stuff up on your own is not a very compelling form of discussion.

 

[BobRyan]

Ellen White ALONE though per the sda had the prophetic gifting

1. false.
2. even if your false statement were true - do you have a Bible text that says no single prophet can exist - they must always come in pairs?

Are you just making stuff up as you go along???

, and received doctrines and practices all Sda must adhere to and with

False.

Take time to actually read the 28 fundamental beliefs to see if you see one that comes "from Ellen White" - turns out - we don't have one.

What is more when we teach people our doctrines and ask them to accept - and become members - we do NOT say "read Ellen White's view of doctrine and accept it" or "This is a doctrine that Ellen White taught us" or any such thing as that.

We know that - because we read.
But you are content to have no source at all from any of our denomination statements on doctrine when you are making stuff up -- why do that??
What is the point of doing such things?

 

[Sam91]

I agree with your statement that SDA are Christian, and it is logical to use the Nicene Creed as a filter between “mainstream” Christians and “non-mainstream” Christians. However, salvation is not based on the Nicene Creed, but on accepting the death and resurrection of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Only heresies and false doctrines that deny the work of Christ make a church non-Christian. For example, is the Anglican Church still Christian? I have no doubt that many members are Christian, but many congregations are rejecting the work of Christ. I don’t accept many of the teachings of SDA, but I have known many members that seem to be my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Only been back here a couple of days and from what I've reading so far from the people I am assuming (at this moment in time) are SDA, they have been making good theological posts (as far as I understand scripture anyway).

 

[BobRyan]

I subscribe to the close to 2,000 years of Church teaching, which is: SDA, if validly Baptized in The Name of The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Spirit are Christians. This applies to all people, not just SDA.

We do baptize "in The Name of The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Spirit"
Deut 6:4 One God
Matt 28:19 in Three Persons

 

[Sam91]

The Sda has elevated Ellen White to the position of being THE teacher and prophetess of their group, just as the Mormons have exalted Joseph Smith and JW Pastor Russell, as in those groups, none are allowed to go against their "inspired revelations" concerning doctrines and practices

Could the same be said about other denominations who respect Calvin, Spurgeon etc? (Innocent question with no agenda either way. Just curious and wanting to understand. I'm detail oriented rather than big picture and when trying to understand a viewpoint i sometimes need more info)

 

[BobRyan]

Could the same be said about other denominations who respect Calvin, Spurgeon etc?

good point.

We have a lot of well respected scholars , pastors and evangelists.
We also have a small number of people that we believe to have had the 1 Cor 12 gift of prophecy.
WE strongly affirm the Acts 17:11 teaching of sola-scriptura testing of all doctrine.

Acts 17 is interesting because it is a case of a non-Christian group testing Paul against scripture "To see IF those things taught by Paul - were SO". And the Acts 17 text says the Bereans were affirmed for using that method. Seventh-day Adventist strongly affirm that method.

 

[concretecamper]

Could the same be said about other denominations who respect Calvin, Spurgeon etc? (Innocent question with no agenda either way. Just curious and wanting to understand. I'm detail oriented rather than big picture and when trying to understand a viewpoint i sometimes need more info)

I've seen people quote Luther's catechism like it is Scripture

 

[Sam91]

I've seen people quote Luther's catechism like it is Scripture

Something else for me to google... need to work out what people were talking about with '* unit of ten' too.

 

[BobRyan]

Something else for me to google... need to work out what people were talking about with '* unit of ten' too.

unit of TEN - is the Ten Commandments found in Ex 20 and also mentioned in Deut 5.

Deut 4 and 5 says God spoke the Ten "and added no more" -- which is just a reference to it being spoken directly to the people

But also we find in Heb 9 and in Exodus that the TEN were the only law kept inside the Ark of the Covenant.

Jer 31:31-34 says that the NEW Covenant writes the Law of God on the heart and mind. The top-most definition for Law in that context is the TEN where he spoke the Ten commandments and "added no more"

Deut 5:22 22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Ex 31:18 18 When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God.

Exodus 34:28
So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Expand my signature line below to see more interesting info on the TEN

 

[Sam91]

unit of TEN - is the Ten Commandments found in Ex 20 and also mentioned in Deut 5.

Deut 4 and 5 says God spoke the Ten "and added no more" -- which is just a reference to it being spoken directly to the people

But also we find in Heb 9 and in Exodus that the TEN were the only law kept inside the Ark of the Covenant.

Thanks. Chat GPT'd the other. It just produced an interesting group of comparison tables comparing Lutherian, Catholic and Baptist beliefs. Asked it to put in SDA too. Off to read that rather than asking and fuelling fires accidently.

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks. Chat GPT'd the other. It just produced an interesting group of comparison tables comparing Lutherian, Catholic and Baptist beliefs. Asked it to put in SDA too. Off to read that rather than asking and fuelling fires accidently.

Just FYI my signature line shows a unity among those groups on what the Bible says about what is in the Ten Commandments as spoken by God at Sinai. A lot of agreement exists on that point

Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today
[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul
[*]many others as well..
* - 10 as-is or else in edited form

 

[Sam91]

Just FYI my signature line shows a unity among those groups on what the Bible says about what is in the Ten Commandments as spoken by God at Sinai. A lot of agreement exists on that point

Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today
[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul
[*]many others as well..
* - 10 as-is or else in edited form

I just haven't heard them called that before. Chat gpt knew what it was... google didn't it told me about tithing instead

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Is the Sda considered to be Christian church based upon their own doctrines and practices?​

Based on my responses below to the issues you have raised, I would say there is nothing in particular about the issues you have raised that should disqualify SDA from being considered a Christian church. If we were to disqualify them, then certainly we would have to disqualify others as well.

Have been having a spirited discussion with several Sda on their Sda specific forum here, but in the spirit of being helpful and correct, have moved that discussion now over to this part of Board!

Main contention have with the Sda is that see their beliefs being

Adding Ellen White as an infallible source of inspired revelation to the text of canon of scripture

I don't see much of an issue with the SDA church having a founding member that is venerated. Many denominations have those.

Insisting Sabbath Keeping requirement for today

This may be of particular interest to SDA's, but I think there are other denominations that would agree with them, at least in part. The issue for me is not so much that they focus on keeping one particular law as the pathway to eternal life. It is their focus on conformity to laws as the pathway to eternal life that is a concern to me. And I would say they share this focus with several other denominations.

Having Investigative Judgement heresy

I don't know much about this doctrine. What makes it "heresy"? Even if it is false doctrine (and I am not sayying it is), there are many denominations that believe in false doctrines. What makes this doctrine especially significant?

Seeing themselves as being true faithful remnant church of last days

It seems to be a common belief in many denominations that they are the one true church. Why call out SDA in particular for this belief?

 

[BobRyan]

I don't know much about this doctrine. What makes it "heresy"? Even if it is false doctrine (and I am not sayying it is), there are many denominations that believe in false doctrines. What makes this doctrine especially significant?

The phrase "Investigative Judgment" is our (Adventist) shorthand for judgment depicted in Dan 7:9-10, 22 and continuing to the end of the chapter. We claim it functions according to the process described in Rom 2:4-16.

Dan 7:9-10 says "the court sat and the books were opened" - describing a judgment based on books of record
Dan 7:22 says the verdict of the judgment will conclude in the form "Judgment was passed in favor of the saints" (NASB)
The chapter ends by saying that once the judgment in heaven ends - the saints are no longer persecuted - Christ takes over.

Some folks don't like that - but we say each one has free will and can choose to like this teaching or not.

It seems to be a common belief in many denominations that they are the one true church. Why call out SDA in particular for this belief?

Indeed members of any given church seldom say "My church has bad doctrine, others have it more correct but I like mine anyway" - that is not very common at all.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The phrase "Investigative Judgment" is our (Adventist) shorthand for judgment depicted in Dan 7:9-10, 22 and continuing to the end of the chapter. We claim it functions according to the process described in Rom 2:4-16.

Dan 7:9-10 says "the court sat and the books were opened" - describing a judgment based on books of record
Dan 7:22 says the verdict of the judgment will conclude in the form "Judgment was passed in favor of the saints" (NASB)
The chapter ends by saying that once the judgment in heaven ends - the saints are no longer persecuted - Christ takes over.

Some folks don't like that - but we say each one has free will and can choose to like this teaching or not.

Indeed members of any given church seldom say "My church has bad doctrine, others have it more correct but I like mine anyway" - that is not very common at all.

Ok, I am familiar with the SDA argument from Romans 2. I just didn't know it had a name. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[YeshuaFan]

hint: -- which we do.

Saved by Grace through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ completed once for all at the cross 1 John 2:2
Have you looked into this topic?

None of the following prophets wrote a single book in the Bible - yet it was not condemned by God to accept their prophetic gift - as we all know.

IT is true of Anna in the Temple and Simeon in the temple at the birth of Christ according to Luke
It is true of Agabus in the book of Acts.
It is true of Nathan in the OT.
None of them write books in the Bible - all of them inspired by the Holy Spirit

Are you familiar with this Bible doctrine?
OR are you simply saying that you choose to be cessationist and anyone that does not agree with you on that suggestion must be bad in some way??
OR are you saying that since you don't agree with some Adventist doctrine - anyone who does agree with what you choose not to agree with must be less-than in some way?

Have you considered that EW stated to Sda that in the Investigative Judgement, Jesus will NOT be your mediator, and that God will judge you based upon keeping the Law perfectly?

 

[YeshuaFan]

good point.

We have a lot of well respected scholars , pastors and evangelists.
We also have a small number of people that we believe to have had the 1 Cor 12 gift of prophecy.
WE strongly affirm the Acts 17:11 teaching of sola-scriptura testing of all doctrine.

Acts 17 is interesting because it is a case of a non-Christian group testing Paul against scripture "To see IF those things taught by Paul - were SO". And the Acts 17 text says the Bereans were affirmed for using that method. Seventh-day Adventist strongly affirm that method.

Do you agree with Ellen White that he testimonies and writing came directly from the Holy Spirit, so when she wrote or speak a way something should be seen as being understand and believed, to go against her was going against God?