ELIJAH AND ZERUBBABEL ARE THE TWO WITNESSES

[jamesalbright]

Again, I've not claimed to be a language expert. So I'm only expressing *my opinion.* That is *not* "lying.* That would make your own claim a form of butchering the English language. Giving an opinion, true or false, is not "lying!"

Furthermore, there are many scholars who know the Greek better than you or me who interpret this passage just as I do. I'm not here trying to be "original" in my interpretation.

The fact you insist on calling me a "liar" after I've explained these things more than once indicates you have a serious internal and moral problem. Something is wrong with you spiritually if you cannot let go your attack on me as a person and as a Christian. Repent of your ways, brother. It does not cause the Kingdom of God to prosper.

"Elijah does come" means, for me, that Jesus identified Elijah as fulfilling the prophecy, "Elijah is coming." Get off your high horse, and stop repeating the same arguments. We can agree to disagree. You don't have to call everyone who disagrees with you a "liar!"

Academia in Christianity is responsible for all of the false teachings in the churches. They got on the intellectual band wagon with the unsaved intellectuals as the various fields of science emerged on the scene and they began thinking Jesus talks to us through their intellectual endeavors, which is a lie out of hell. No one that ever had an insight received it through their flesh or the flesh of other Christian academics. What you posted is a blatant lie about the English language below.
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

 

[RandyPNW]

Academia in Christianity is responsible for all of the false teachings in the churches. They got on the intellectual band wagon with the unsaved intellectuals as the various fields of science emerged on the scene and they began thinking Jesus talks to us through their intellectual endeavors, which is a lie out of hell. No one that ever had an insight received it through their flesh or the flesh of other Christian academics. What you posted is a blatant lie about the English language below.
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

You have a serious moral and spiritual problem. Academia in Christianity is *not* responsible for all of the false teachings in the churches. God Himself instituted teaching in the Church. Would you ascribe to God heresy in his own Church?

To think that a commonly-disputed passage in Mark 9 fits into the category of "false teachings" or "lying" is amazing, to me. You surely have an issue--an anger issue, a judgmental issue?

As I said, the passage can be read in two ways, either that there are two kinds of "Elijah" being spoken here in this passage, or that there is only one kind of "Elijah" being spoken of here. Since the passage does not clearly delineate between the two, I accept the natural understanding that "Elijah" is being identified as John the Baptist.

It is not critical to Christian salvation, nor even a matter of orthodoxy, to believe that Elijah is one of the Two Witnesses of Rev 11. The fact you make this as important as any other heresy is utterly strange to me? You surely have a beam in your own eye!

What you read to say "Elijah is coming" in the future, I read to mean "Elijah is John the Baptist and has already come."

There is no question that "Elijah is coming" has a future tense. But the English language and any language is flexible. Words do not carry with them their context unless we're talking about proper nouns. Context determines the meaning of words, and even use of a future tense can be used as a present reality.

I can easily say, "Elijah is coming is fulfilled in John the Baptist." That is taking a phrase from the past, indicating a future event, and applying it to something in the present. "Elijah is coming. He is already here."

Elijah thus represented someone other than the literal Elijah. Jesus clearly identified this prophesied "Elijah" as being John the Baptist. You apparently accept that, but then protest that there must be some future fulfillment of "Elijah" as well because the future tense is used?

But Jesus used the future tense "is coming" while at the same time identifying him as John the Baptist. He is taking what existed in the past in the future tense to apply to the present ministry of John the Baptist. Jesus affirmed the prophecy that "Elijah is coming." But then he identified who "Elijah" was as John the Baptist. I might say, "Yes, 'Elijah's coming" is true. It's evident in the fact it is already happening."

The Jewish People expected Elijah to come in the future. But Jesus implied that "Elijah" was a symbolic name representing John the Baptist who the Jewish People should've already recognized--he was the forerunner of Messiah.

This is what makes the passage significant--the recognition of Jesus as the Messiah and John the Baptist as his forerunner. The passage obtains zero value in identifying, speculatively, that the "Elijah to come" will be one of the Two Witnesses.

If you can't see this, I trust others who read this will? In other words, there is no value in discussing this with you to change your mind--I wish only to minister truth to those who are open to it. But I strongly urge you to keep your mind open to God's correction on all matters. After all, He is the Teacher, and we are all of us His students.

 

[jamesalbright]

By your standards you’re lying because I never said Elijah wasn’t coming

You lie again because he isn’t physically coming back



You’re actually so hilarious. You have no clue the true meaning of Zechariah 4 but you’re calling me I liar.

What does Zechariah 4:9 speak of

It is one thing not to understand something symbolic. But you are outrightly lying about the English language below
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

 

[Happygolucky?]

It is one thing not to understand something symbolic. But you are outrightly lying about the English language below
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

I know Elijah is coming back, and I know how he’s coming back.

But I won’t call you a liar because you don’t understand that

 

[Ed Parenteau]

I can easily say, "Elijah is coming is fulfilled in John the Baptist." That is taking a phrase from the past, indicating a future event, and applying it to something in the present. "Elijah is coming. He is already here."

Except that it isn't that way in the Greek. The literal translations have the correct understanding of the aorist participle active verb.
Here's a Greek language textbook online that can be very helpful, if you, like myself, just want to look up the meaning of the Greek that the English translation is referring to. http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook01/contents.html

Mark 9:14
Berean Literal Bible
And He was saying to them, "Elijah indeed, having come first, restores all things; and how has it been written of the Son of Man, that He should suffer many things and be set at naught?
Young's Literal Translation
And he answering said to them, 'Elijah indeed, having come first, doth restore all things; and how hath it been written concerning the Son of Man, that many things he may suffer, and be set at nought?

You can see that here and in the interlinear bible that shows the words and the translation of the Greek and the grammar. Very handy.
Mark 9:12 Interlinear: And he answering said to them, 'Elijah indeed, having come first, doth restore all things; and how hath it been written concerning the Son of Man, that many things he may suffer, and be set at nought?

Otherwise, how will one know if he comes? What if some Jew claims to be Elijah, would you follow him because he says so and says the Messiah is coming?
In the first century they were expecting the Messiah because of Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks--- that after the 62 weeks Messiah would come.

Calling someone a liar because they don't hold to a certain understanding of the English translation they use is to say the least, unfortunate

 

[jamesalbright]

I know Elijah is coming back, and I know how he’s coming back.

But I won’t call you a liar because you don’t understand that

Happygolucky? said, You lie again because he (Elijah) isn’t physically coming back. Your claim that the scriptures below support your claim is a lie out of hell.
Jesus and John say: Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

 

[jamesalbright]

You're right, except you don't even have to make that argument as the literal translation is not of a future tense verb. You can see that here and in the interlinear bible that shows the words and the translation of the Greek and the grammar. Very handy.
Mark 9:14
Berean Literal Bible
And He was saying to them, "Elijah indeed, having come first, restores all things; and how has it been written of the Son of Man, that He should suffer many things and be set at naught?
Young's Literal Translation
And he answering said to them, 'Elijah indeed, having come first, doth restore all things; and how hath it been written concerning the Son of Man, that many things he may suffer, and be set at nought?

You can see that here and in the interlinear bible that shows the words and the translation of the Greek and the grammar. Very handy.
Mark 9:12 Interlinear: And he answering said to them, 'Elijah indeed, having come first, doth restore all things; and how hath it been written concerning the Son of Man, that many things he may suffer, and be set at nought?

Otherwise, how will one know if he comes? What if some Jew claims to be Elijah, would you follow him because he says so and says the Messiah is coming?
In the first century they were expecting the Messiah because of Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks--- that after the 62 weeks Messiah would come.

Therefore, calling someone a liar because they don't hold to a certain understanding of the English translation they use is to say the least, unfortunate

You didn't read the verse correctly. It says exactly the same thing as the NASB. Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things. You should be reading the NASB because it is translated in the dialect Americans can understand correctly as opposed to a translation you can butcher to make it say what you want to.

 

[Happygolucky?]

You're right, except you don't even have to make that argument as the literal translation is not of a future tense verb. You can see that here and in the interlinear bible that shows the words and the translation of the Greek and the grammar. Very handy.
Mark 9:14
Berean Literal Bible
And He was saying to them, "Elijah indeed, having come first, restores all things; and how has it been written of the Son of Man, that He should suffer many things and be set at naught?
Young's Literal Translation
And he answering said to them, 'Elijah indeed, having come first, doth restore all things; and how hath it been written concerning the Son of Man, that many things he may suffer, and be set at nought?

You can see that here and in the interlinear bible that shows the words and the translation of the Greek and the grammar. Very handy.
Mark 9:12 Interlinear: And he answering said to them, 'Elijah indeed, having come first, doth restore all things; and how hath it been written concerning the Son of Man, that many things he may suffer, and be set at nought?

Otherwise, how will one know if he comes? What if some Jew claims to be Elijah, would you follow him because he says so and says the Messiah is coming?
In the first century they were expecting the Messiah because of Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks--- that after the 62 weeks Messiah would come.

Therefore, calling someone a liar because they don't hold to a certain understanding of the English translation they use is to say the least, unfortunate

I took a screenshot shot of “ will restore” Matthew 17:11, it indicates 3rd person Verb- future, active, indictative

In others word that restoration had not occurred up to that point. JTB was gone and the restoration was not completed.

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But I agree 100 percent, it’s a widely debated issue. I understand wholly that all things are not restored. Of course, no one is a liar because they don’t understand that

 

[jamesalbright]

But I agree 100 percent, it’s a widely debated issue. I understand wholly that all things are not restored. Of course, no one is a liar because they don’t understand that

You knowingly say the English language below says something you know it doesn't say. That makes you a liar.
Jesus and John say: Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

 

[jamesalbright]

Your slanderous claim of what I know is truth is not from the Lord.

Was JTB Elijah? Yes or no?

I’m not asking if John understood that he was Elijah. So don’t give me that.


Was John Elijah? Yes or no?

Your claim that Elijah isn't coming back contradicts Jesus and the English language itself. John's answer, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.

 

[jamesalbright]

Elijah is coming and will restore all things


Now answer my question please

Was JTB Elijah? Yes or no?

I’m not asking you if John realized he was Elijah.

Was he Elijah?

Happygolucky says; I know Elijah is coming back, and I know how he’s coming back. You lie again because he isn’t physically coming back.
Jesus said Elijah is coming back physically, Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
You have no right to inject any idea other than what is stated in verse 11 and verse 12.
Your injection is so utterly false it contradicts the fact that Gabriel told John, the two witnesses, Elijah and Zerubbabel will be physically killed and lie in the streets of Jerusalem for three days and then be resurrected and taken to heaven.
Rev. 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 And those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 11 And after the three and a half days the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were beholding them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “ Come up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.
This is the last time I am reposting the scripture that answered your question. John's answer, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No." Do you understand plain English or do prefer to butcher plain English to make your false claim appear to fit the Bible. Get a life.

 

[RandyPNW]

Except that it isn't that way in the Greek. The literal translations have the correct understanding of the aorist participle active verb.
Here's a Greek language textbook online that can be very helpful, if you, like myself, just want to look up the meaning of the Greek that the English translation is referring to. http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook01/contents.html

I just consulted my brother, who does amateur work translating the Bible from Hebrew and Greek. He told me that verse 12 is indeed, as you said, an aorist participle active verb. But he added that seeing something in the past can have a future application, just as I said.

It is context that is king here. Something becomes "in the past" when the thing happens to determine it is in the past. And so, my brother said, the NIV translation is given deliberately ambiguous so as to not appear biased. Elijah "does come," indicating it will "have come" when he has restored all things.

I see the "restoring of all things" as John the Baptist's ministry to reconcile Israel to God via a baptism of repentance. That is when he "has come." So Jesus is saying that John the Baptist is Elijah who has come once he restores all things through repentance.

My brother wasn't taking a position such as I am in interpreting the passage--just saying that the aorist verb and the use of "proton"--first, does not determine and limit at what point Elijah has come. It is context that determines that. And he said that "aspect" is somehow more important than tense--I don't fully understand that?

So I have no idea why you say I was wrong? Unless you know Greek, it isn't enough to just quote some scholar on the subject without understanding what he is saying. It is not the interpretation but the language matter that I'm talking about. The grammar is not necessarily establishing the interpretation.

You mistakenly cite Mark 9:14 below, and meant Mark 9:12. Verse 13 speaks of the perfect sense of the verb, that is something completed in the past. Elijah *has come.* I may not get all of this perfectly, because I don't know and remember everything my brother said. But in effect, he does not see, as you do, the grammar determining the interpretation. The context is better suited to do that.

Mark 9:14
Berean Literal Bible
And He was saying to them, "Elijah indeed, having come first, restores all things; and how has it been written of the Son of Man, that He should suffer many things and be set at naught?
Young's Literal Translation
And he answering said to them, 'Elijah indeed, having come first, doth restore all things; and how hath it been written concerning the Son of Man, that many things he may suffer, and be set at nought?

You can see that here and in the interlinear bible that shows the words and the translation of the Greek and the grammar. Very handy.
Mark 9:12 Interlinear: And he answering said to them, 'Elijah indeed, having come first, doth restore all things; and how hath it been written concerning the Son of Man, that many things he may suffer, and be set at nought?

Otherwise, how will one know if he comes?

We know "Elijah" has come because Jesus identified him as John the Baptist. Like Elijah of old was persecuted by Jezebel, so John the Baptist was predicted to come as the forerunner of a rejected Messiah and would be persecuted by Herod and his relatives. His baptism for repentance determined that he "restored all things" in preparation for Messiah. And so we know who he was.

What if some Jew claims to be Elijah, would you follow him because he says so and says the Messiah is coming?

No, Elijah was to be the forerunner of Messiah and like Messiah be persecuted. He would have a ministry of reconciliation in a time of sin permeating the society.

In the first century they were expecting the Messiah because of Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks--- that after the 62 weeks Messiah would come.

Calling someone a liar because they don't hold to a certain understanding of the English translation they use is to say the least, unfortunate

Agree! Thanks.

 

[Happygolucky?]

"Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

For your information “the prophet” is NOT Elijah

It’s found in Deuteronomy 18:15-23

15“The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen; to him you shall listen. 16This is in accordance with everything that you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Do not let me hear the voice of the LORD my God again, and do not let me see this great fire anymore, or I will die!’ 17And the LORD said to me, ‘They have [g]spoken well. 18I will raise up for them a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them everything that I command him.

That above is the law

That is the prophet that Philip speaks

John 1:45

45Philip *found Nathanael and *said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets also wrote: Jesus the son of Joseph, from Nazareth!”


Who is “THE PROPHET” That Moses wrote about? Jesus! Not Elijah

Just because you don’t understand that, you’re not a liar

 

[anetazo]

Most scholars believe its moses and Elijah. Zechariah chapter 4, the two sons of oil are standing next throne of God. Bottom line. No one really knows who the two witnesses are. They will appear in Jerusalem 10 days before antichrist, revelation chapter 11. I'm sure someone with personality disorder would probably claim to be one of the two witnesses. Read zechariah chapter 4, The two witnesses are with God. When deadly wound of revelation chapter 13 happens, the two sons of oil will appear in Jerusalem. Study the bible.

 

[jamesalbright]

As I said, the passage can be read in two ways, either that there are two kinds of "Elijah" being spoken here in this passage, or that there is only one kind of "Elijah" being spoken of here. Since the passage does not clearly delineate between the two, I accept the natural understanding that "Elijah" is being identified as John the Baptist.

The scriptures below are written in plain easy to understand English that can't be taken in two ways. Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said he will return, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said no he is not Elijah, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

 

[jamesalbright]

You hilariously dance around like I’ve never seen anyone dance. And I don’t mean physically

I will help you! John did NOT realize he was Elijah. But Jesus did consider him A return of Elijah.

This is what Jesus said

Matthew 17:12

but I say to you that Elijah already came,


Above^^^^ Jesus said Elijah already came as John

Unfortunately, you were unwilling to answer that question.

You think Elijah is physically coming back, but he isn’t. Zerubbabel is Elijah, in the same manner JTB was. By your standard you’re a liar. But I realize your understanding of this is limited

Intellectuals often butcher metaphors to make their false teachings appear to fit the Bible and when they do they contradict the scriptures that plainly reveal they teaching false imaginations. Jesus said Elijah is coming back physically, Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread is closed for staff review and clean up.

​

 

[Aldebaran]

MOD HAT

THREAD IS NOW OPEN
PLEASE KEEP THE DISCUSSION CIVIL FROM THIS POINT​

 

[Happygolucky?]

Intellectuals often butcher metaphors to make their false teachings appear to fit the Bible and when they do they contradict the scriptures

Well, I am certainly no intellectual and I’m certainly not butchering anything.

In his humanity, John did NOT understand that the spirit and power constituted A return of Elijah. We know he was Elijah, because Jesus told us he was Elijah. John did not lie when he said he was Not Elijah. He simply did Not understand. Either that or he lied, which I strongly doubt.

John 1:21

And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.”


However, Jesus, being God explains that John was in fact Elijah.

Matthew 11:14

14And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who [l]was to come.


For those who are willing to accept it. Even today, it appears that on this thread, that there are still some unwilling to accept that John was Elijah. But see above Jesus says he was Elijah.
Spirit and power= return of Elijah.

Therefore, when Jesus says in

Matthew 17:11

That Elijah will restore all things (future), Jesus is telling us in Matthew 17:12 that he will come again, just as John was Elijah. In spirit and in power of Elijah. For God, the spirit and power of Elijah, is A return of Elijah.

 

[jamesalbright]

In his humanity, John did NOT understand that the spirit and power constituted A return of Elijah. We know he was Elijah, because Jesus told us he was Elijah. John did not lie when he said he was Not Elijah. He simply did Not understand. Either that or he lied, which I strongly doubt.

This is your opinion not a scripture. The scriptures are for teaching, stay within them. Casting your opinions as scriptures is wrong and consequently caused you to leave out the scriptures your opinion contradicts. Here are the scriptures your opinion contradicts and you left out of your explanation.
According to Mat 17:10-12 and Mark 9:12 John the Baptist was not the returning Elijah. After John the Baptist had already been beheaded Jesus stated that Elijah will come in Mat 17:11 and Mark 9:12.
Mat 17:10-12) And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" {11} And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things; {12} but I say to you, that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."
(Mark 9:11-12) And they asked Him, saying, "Why is it that the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" {12} And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things. And yet how is it written of the Son of Man that He should suffer many things and be treated with contempt?

The answer to why Jesus said that Elijah had already come and that he will come in the future is found when we compare the effect that John was having at the time and the effect that Elijah will have when he comes, which as is stated in Luke 1:13-17 and Mal 4:5-6 is that both caused the hearts of fathers to turn back to the children.
Luke 1:13-17) But the angel said to him, "Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. {14} "And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. {15} "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother's womb. {16} "And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. {17} "And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

(Mal 4:5-6) "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. {6} "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."