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ELIJAH AND ZERUBBABEL ARE THE TWO WITNESSES

RandyPNW

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The person who asked John if he was Elijah acknowledged what was plainly stated by prophets, which is that Elijah would return to the scene. You on the other hand blatantly contradict the prophets. We aren't talking about opinions we are talking about your blatant misuse of the English language.
I think the Bible uses language that may be a form of "metonymy" or "metaphor." I see that used when a descendant of King David, the Messiah, is referred to as "David." Jesus was not literally "David," but he fulfilled the "prophecy of David."

When the Bible prophesies "horse riders" in the endtimes, it is likely they are substitutes for "transportation" in modern times, such as cars and trucks. The promised restoration of God's "temple" uses "temple" as a metaphor for a "heavenly temple" in the NT era, when God as Redeemer will return to earth and establish His dwelling among his people.

Language is an interesting subject. And I think that's evident in Jesus' claim that John the Baptist was "Elijah."
 
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jamesalbright

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On the contrary, *you* make this into a "life or death" matter of faith. I disagree with your interpretation, as do many others. So anybody who disagrees with your interpretation on this matter is a "heretic?" Start acting like an obedient Christian, brother. Christians can disagree and still love one another. That's what Christ called us to do.

As I said, John the Baptist rightly denied that he was the "Prophet," aka the Messiah. He also rightly denied that he was a reincarnation of the literal Prophet Elijah. What he did *not* do is deny he was the fulfillment of the prophesied "Elijah" who would be the Messenger, or Forerunner, of Messiah, because that's exactly who Jesus said he was!

In other words, John denied he was the physical flesh and blood Elijah, come back from heaven. But he did not deny he was a fulfillment of the "Elijah" prophecy who symbolically represented the forerunner of Messiah.
We are discussing you lying about the English language.
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.


John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
 
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Happygolucky?

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The scriptures were made to teach and correct you, not you were made to correct the scriptures.


True, but it is the scriptures that are to correct and not your interpretation of the scriptures


Elijah and Zerubbabel of the past are not physically coming back in the flesh.

Matthew 17:11 says Elijah will come and restore ALL thing’s…EVERYTHING


Matthew 17:12 tells us how he is returning. In the same manner that JTB was Elijah. Spirit and power of Elijah

Zechariah 4 is the first biblical message to one of the 2 witnesses

Haggai 2:20-23 is the second


And Haggai 2:1-9 is the final message but it is a message to the entire remnant as well . It comes on the 7th day of tabernacles

You don’t understand this, but it’s not your or anybody else’s fault. We try the best to interpret scripture based on what we have.
 
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RandyPNW

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We are discussing you lying about the English language.
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.


John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
That is a legitimate theory, that Jesus was saying that Elijah is *still* coming. But I find it equally acceptable to view it that Jesus was just confirming that Elijah was indeed *in the process* of coming, literally through the coming and ministry of John the Baptist. John was doing exactly what the prophecy said he would be doing, namely proclaiming the coming and appearance of Messiah with the prophetic authority akin to that of Elijah the Prophet.

I do not believe the English or Greek language demands that it be taken as you suggest, that Jesus was saying Elijah is in heaven and will come again. That is patently absurd, as I told you before--Elijah *died!* He was taken directly to heaven where he was disrobed of his mortal body. He could therefore *not* come again--not until the 1st Resurrection. (Elijah only "appeared" at the Transfiguration.)

Jesus was, in my opinion, confirming that Elijah was indeed to come, ie he "does come." He was coming in the person of John the Baptist.

I don't see that you are a Greek language expert who can legitimately discard my interpretation as abusive? If you wish to claim, authoritatively, that I am abusing the Greek language in this text, give me your credentials? Regardless, don't call a fellow Christian a "liar" when this is simply an opinion.

From my position, not as a language expert, the tense involved with "Elijah is coming" appears to be a a confirmation of something said in the past about what at that time was still in the future. "Elijah is coming." From the time of Malachi, John the Baptist was still "coming," and had not yet come.

But in Jesus' time, John the Baptist had already come and was presently ministering as messenger of Messiah. Jesus confirmed that the prophecy was true, that in John the Baptist "Elijah is coming."

Jesus was confirming the "Elijah" who was to come is presently coming, ie he is already here and presently carrying out his ministry. You don't carry a very good testimony as a Christian. You don't love your brother, let alone your enemy. Before discussing Scripture start living Scripture!
 
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Happygolucky?

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The tense involved with "Elijah is coming" may be a a confirmation of something said in the past about what at that time was still future.

If that’s not clear enough, and maybe it could be questionable; the Greek word for “all” in Matthew 17:11 means everything, the whole thing, complete.

Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every

After Jesus had ascended all things were not restored.

Acts 1:6-7

Here the disciples are asking about restoring the kingdom back to Israel. This would be included in “all things”

In Acts 3:19-21 Peter is fervently trying to restore the hearts of the sons to the fathers. Telling them that Jesus is received into heaven until the times of the “RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS”. JTB did not restore all things, if all things had been restored, then Peter wouldn’t be talking about the restoration of all things, as being future. Quite frankly, if all things had restored, the Jesus would have already returned.

Acts 3:19-21

19Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the [j]period of RESTORATION OF ALL things, about which God spoke by the mouths of His holy prophets from ancient times.

if Elijah comes and will restore all things, which clearly it is not yet, and then Christ Will NOT return until the TIMES OF THE RESORATION OF ALL THINGS, then Elijah Will return. It will be in the same manner that JTB was Elijah; in spirit and power.

That’s basically the point that is given in Matthew 17:12

He is coming and has come, in the spirit and power through the vessel JTB. And will come again in spirit and power


But because you earnestly doubt it…no biggie. Not a big deal whatsoever
 
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RandyPNW

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If that’s not clear enough, and maybe it could be questionable; the Greek word for “all” in Matthew 17:11 means everything, the whole thing, complete.

Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every

After Jesus had ascended all things were not restored.

Acts 1:6-7

Here the disciples are asking about restoring the kingdom back to Israel. This would be included in “all things”

In Acts 3:19-21 Peter is fervently trying to restore the hearts of the sons to the fathers. Telling them that Jesus is received into heaven until the times of the “RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS”. JTB did not restore all things, if all things had been restored, then Peter wouldn’t be talking about the restoration of all things, as being future. Quite frankly, if all things had restored, the Jesus would have already returned.

Acts 3:19-21

19Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the [j]period of RESTORATION OF ALL things, about which God spoke by the mouths of His holy prophets from ancient times.

if Elijah comes and will restore all things, which clearly it is not yet, and then Christ Will NOT return until the TIMES OF THE RESORATION OF ALL THINGS, then Elijah Will return. It will be in the same manner that JTB was Elijah; in spirit and power.

That’s basically the point that is given in Matthew 17:12

He is coming and has come, in the spirit and power through the vessel JTB. And will come again in spirit and power


But because you earnestly doubt it…no biggie. Not a big deal whatsoever
Thank you. :)
 
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RandyPNW

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If that’s not clear enough, and maybe it could be questionable; the Greek word for “all” in Matthew 17:11 means everything, the whole thing, complete.

Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every

After Jesus had ascended all things were not restored.

Acts 1:6-7

Here the disciples are asking about restoring the kingdom back to Israel. This would be included in “all things”
In this case, "all things" referred, in context, to the restoration of Israel at the end of the age.
In Acts 3:19-21 Peter is fervently trying to restore the hearts of the sons to the fathers. Telling them that Jesus is received into heaven until the times of the “RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS”. JTB did not restore all things, if all things had been restored, then Peter wouldn’t be talking about the restoration of all things, as being future. Quite frankly, if all things had restored, the Jesus would have already returned.

Acts 3:19-21

19Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the [j]period of RESTORATION OF ALL things, about which God spoke by the mouths of His holy prophets from ancient times.

if Elijah comes and will restore all things, which clearly it is not yet, and then Christ Will NOT return until the TIMES OF THE RESORATION OF ALL THINGS, then Elijah Will return. It will be in the same manner that JTB was Elijah; in spirit and power.
In context, the prophecy of the coming of Elijah had to do with doing everything necessary to prepare for the 1st Coming of Messiah. John the Baptist was the forerunner of Messiah, and did everything necessary to prepare Israel for that event by offering water baptism to the people for the forgiveness of their sins.

The reference in Acts 3 to the "restoration of all things" is, like Acts 1, a reference to the restoration of Israel at the end of the age.
That’s basically the point that is given in Matthew 17:12

He is coming and has come, in the spirit and power through the vessel JTB. And will come again in spirit and power


But because you earnestly doubt it…no biggie. Not a big deal whatsoever
It's okay to disagree. In sum, my point is that "all things" is not a term that carries its context with it. It is defined in each place where it is used. The context determines the meaning, and not vice versa. To do otherwise is well known to be an Interpretive Fallacy.
 
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Happygolucky?

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In this case, "all things" referred, in context, to the restoration of Israel at the end of the age.

Yes, they both refer to the restoration of all things at the end of the end. That’s when those times of restoration of all things begin

He told the disciples that Elijah would come and Restore “All” things

Matthew 17:11

11And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore ALL things;

that word “all” means everything,

Malachi 4:5-6


Mal 4:5 - “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.
Tools
4:6 - “He will [fn] RESTORE the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a [fn]curse.”


JTB didn’t restore the hearts of the sons to the fathers. 2000 years is not Really “facing” the day of the Lord. 2000 of 6000 years is 1/3 of the duration since the creation of man


Luke 1:17

As a matter of fact, the hearts of the sons could not be restored to the Fathers until after Jesus went to the cross. The blood of bulls and goats is insufficient. There is only one mediator between God and man.






11And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;


There is a lot to be restored, we are not yet at the time of restoration of All things. Coming soon, it appears. But not quite yet. There’s no way we should believe the hearts of the sons are fully restored to the Fathers. Nor should we believe that 2000 years is “facing” “before” “in front of” the day of the LORD.


I don’t think it “interpretive fallacy” to believe that “restore all things” means “the restoration of all things”.
 
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jamesalbright

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True, but it is the scriptures that are to correct and not your interpretation of the scriptures


Elijah and Zerubbabel of the past are not physically coming back in the flesh.

Matthew 17:11 says Elijah will come and restore ALL thing’s…EVERYTHING


Matthew 17:12 tells us how he is returning. In the same manner that JTB was Elijah. Spirit and power of Elijah

Zechariah 4 is the first biblical message to one of the 2 witnesses

Haggai 2:20-23 is the second


And Haggai 2:1-9 is the final message but it is a message to the entire remnant as well . It comes on the 7th day of tabernacles

You don’t understand this, but it’s not your or anybody else’s fault. We try the best to interpret scripture based on what we have.
As I posted before you openly lie about the English language; Jesus said Elijah will return and John said he wasn't the fulfillment of Elijah returning.
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
 
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jamesalbright

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That is a legitimate theory, that Jesus was saying that Elijah is *still* coming.
In the light of the fact that Jesus said Elijah will return, means your opinion that he will not is a lie.
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
 
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RandyPNW

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In the light of the fact that Jesus said Elijah will return, means your opinion that he will not is a lie.
It's amazing how impure and carnal Christians are today! Calling brothers "liars" for giving opinions is hardly "good Christianity!" So where do you draw the line: do all Christians now and in history who disagree with your interpretation *on anything* become "liars?" That is self-deifying and makes you the Judge! Every Christian then must go to you for clarity as to who is a heretic!
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
I answered this. In effect, Jesus was saying that John the Baptist was fulfilling the prophecy that "Elijah is coming."
 
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Happygolucky?

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As I posted before you openly lie about the English language; Jesus said Elijah will return and John said he wasn't the fulfillment of Elijah returning.
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said,

Please elaborate, how am I lying?
 
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jamesalbright

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It's amazing how impure and carnal Christians are today! Calling brothers "liars" for giving opinions is hardly "good Christianity!" So where do you draw the line: do all Christians now and in history who disagree with your interpretation *on anything* become "liars?" That is self-deifying and makes you the Judge! Every Christian then must go to you for clarity as to who is a heretic!

I answered this. In effect, Jesus was saying that John the Baptist was fulfilling the prophecy that "Elijah is coming."
It is about you blatantly lying about the English language. These are the English words you are lying about.
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
 
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jamesalbright

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Please elaborate, how am I lying?
You don't have Jesus's permission to call your lie about the English language below anything other than what it is.
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
 
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Happygolucky?

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You don't have Jesus's permission to call your lie about the English language below anything other than what it is.
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

Please elaborate on my “lie”, show me where I posted that. Or save your time looking. I understand that Elijah is coming again.


But because someone doesn’t agree with you, it’s a little out of line to call them a liar.
 
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RandyPNW

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It is about you blatantly lying about the English language. These are the English words you are lying about.
Again, I've not claimed to be a language expert. So I'm only expressing *my opinion.* That is *not* "lying.* That would make your own claim a form of butchering the English language. Giving an opinion, true or false, is not "lying!"

Furthermore, there are many scholars who know the Greek better than you or me who interpret this passage just as I do. I'm not here trying to be "original" in my interpretation.

The fact you insist on calling me a "liar" after I've explained these things more than once indicates you have a serious internal and moral problem. Something is wrong with you spiritually if you cannot let go your attack on me as a person and as a Christian. Repent of your ways, brother. It does not cause the Kingdom of God to prosper.
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
"Elijah does come" means, for me, that Jesus identified Elijah as fulfilling the prophecy, "Elijah is coming." Get off your high horse, and stop repeating the same arguments. We can agree to disagree. You don't have to call everyone who disagrees with you a "liar!"
 
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jamesalbright

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Please elaborate on my “lie”, show me where I posted that. Or save your time looking. I understand that Elijah is coming again.


But because someone doesn’t agree with you, it’s a little out of line to call them a liar.
This forum infastructure
Again, I've not claimed to be a language expert. So I'm only expressing *my opinion.* That is *not* "lying.* That would make your own claim a form of butchering the English language. Giving an opinion, true or false, is not "lying!"

Furthermore, there are many scholars who know the Greek better than you or me who interpret this passage just as I do. I'm not here trying to be "original" in my interpretation.

The fact you insist on calling me a "liar" after I've explained these things more than once indicates you have a serious internal and moral problem. Something is wrong with you spiritually if you cannot let go your attack on me as a person and as a Christian. Repent of your ways, brother. It does not cause the Kingdom of God to prosper.

"Elijah does come" means, for me, that Jesus identified Elijah as fulfilling the prophecy, "Elijah is coming." Get off your high horse, and stop repeating the same arguments. We can agree to disagree. You don't have to call everyone who disagrees with you a "liar!"
Again, I've not claimed to be a language expert. So I'm only expressing *my opinion.* That is *not* "lying.* That would make your own claim a form of butchering the English language. Giving an opinion, true or false, is not "lying!"

Furthermore, there are many scholars who know the Greek better than you or me who interpret this passage just as I do. I'm not here trying to be "original" in my interpretation.

The fact you insist on calling me a "liar" after I've explained these things more than once indicates you have a serious internal and moral problem. Something is wrong with you spiritually if you cannot let go your attack on me as a person and as a Christian. Repent of your ways, brother. It does not cause the Kingdom of God to prosper.

"Elijah does come" means, for me, that Jesus identified Elijah as fulfilling the prophecy, "Elijah is coming." Get off your high horse, and stop repeating the same arguments. We can agree to disagree. You don't have to call everyone who disagrees with you a "liar!"
So now you want us to believe the lie that you can't read and understand the English language below. You don't have the right to post lie after lie about the English language below. Get right with God the Holy Spirit.
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
 
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RandyPNW

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This forum infastructure


So now you want us to believe the lie that you can't read and understand the English language below. You don't have the right to post lie after lie about the English language below. Get right with God the Holy Spirit.
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
Yes, I can read English and honestly believe Jesus was saying that the "Elijah who was to come" was John the Baptist. Sorry you can't see that and believe those who do are "liars."

Mark 9.13 But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him.”

Jesus here clearly identified the Elijah who was to come as John the Baptist. To deny that is to fail to understand the verse, in my opinion. So I'm saying precisely what Jesus said and what Mark recorded.

You must surely believe that too? If you believe and understand what this verse is saying, then you must see things the way I do?

But you're apparently saying that Jesus was saying two things at the same time, that Elijah who was to come was John the Baptist and that the actual Elijah is still going to come, immediately before Christ's Return? In reality, if this is what you're saying, you're claiming that Jesus and Mark are saying two things, and not one thing. And I don't see any indication in these verses that two different things are being said?

At any rate, whether or not you use logic to arrive at that conclusion, Jesus does not explicitly come out and explain that he is saying two distinctly different things, that he is talking about two separate people! The Scriptures do not themselves clarify that one person being spoken of is John the Baptist and the other is Elijah the Prophet.

Obviously, this would be confusing if indeed that's what Jesus meant. It would be an intentional obfuscation of the meaning, apparently determined to confuse his listeners, expecting, perhaps, his followers to understand. But this is no "parable!" It would just as easily confuse his followers as his enemies!

So I prefer to believe what the Scriptures explicitly say, which is that "Elijah who is coming" is actually being fulfilled by John the Baptist. There is not a thing in this passage about John the Baptist being one of the Two Witnesses in Rev 11. To try to fit Rev 11 together with this passage is well beyond what Jesus was saying.

It would be trying to "logically fit" Rev 11 into the passage in Mark, and to 2nd guess what Jesus was saying. He clearly identified the Elijah Prophecy as fulfilled in John the Baptist. To then go beyond this to say Jesus was admitting that Elijah the Prophet was *literally coming again* before the 2nd Coming is far beyond the scope of what Jesus was actually doing.

Jesus was identifying John the Baptist as the actual fulfillment of this prophecy. To ignore that and to claim Elijah is still coming is to miss the whole point Jesus was making!

The whole point Jesus was making was that the Jewish People were expecting a literal return of the Prophet Elijah immediately before their national restoration and deliverance from the Romans. Jesus exposed this as a failure to discern the true fulfillment of the prophecy in his 1st Coming to die for their sins and in his predecessor and forerunner, John the Baptist.

To go on saying that Elijah is still to come is to say the same thing the unbelieving Jews were errantly saying, namely that the physical Elijah is going to physically return before Israel's national salvation. If we are to properly expect Salvation to come to the world we must recognize that it has nothing to do with the Prophet Elijah returning. Rather, it has to do with what John the Baptist proclaimed, "Here is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world."
 
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jamesalbright

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Please elaborate on my “lie”, show me where I posted that. Or save your time looking. I understand that Elijah is coming again.


But because someone doesn’t agree with you, it’s a little out of line to call them a liar.
Happygolucky? posted: True, but it is the scriptures that are to correct and not your interpretation of the scriptures
Elijah and Zerubbabel of the past are not physically coming back in the flesh.
jamesdalbright response:
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
Please elaborate on my “lie”, show me where I posted that. Or save your time looking. I understand that Elijah is coming again.


But because someone doesn’t agree with you, it’s a little out of line to call them a liar.
Happygolucky? posted: Elijah and Zerubbabel of the past are not physically coming back in the flesh.
jamesdalbright responded:
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
 
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Happygolucky?

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Happygolucky? posted: True, but it is the scriptures that are to correct and not your interpretation of the scriptures
Elijah and Zerubbabel of the past are not physically coming back in the flesh.
jamesdalbright response:
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

Happygolucky? posted: Elijah and Zerubbabel of the past are not physically coming back in the flesh.
jamesdalbright responded:
Elijah was in heaven when Jesus said, 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;……..12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things.
John said, "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

It is not your interpretation of the scriptures that correct us


Zerubbabel and Elijah are not physically coming back

By your own standards you are the one lying about the scriptures
 
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