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ELIJAH AND ZERUBBABEL ARE THE TWO WITNESSES

jamesalbright

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ELIJAH AND ZERUBBABEL ARE THE TWO WITNESSES

Jesus told us that Elijah will be one of the two witnesses in Mal 4:5-6 when He told Malachi He is going to send Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord, which takes place at Armageddon when Jesus throws the Antichrist and the False Prophet into the lake of fire alive and destroys his armies.
Mal 4:5-6 "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. 6 "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

According to Mat 17:10-12 and Mark 9:12 John the Baptist was not the returning Elijah. After John the Baptist had already been beheaded Jesus stated that Elijah is still coming I Mat 17:11 and Mark 9:12.
Matt. 17:10 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you, that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”
Mark 9:11-12 And they asked Him, saying, "Why is it that the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" 12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things. And yet how is it written of the Son of Man that He should suffer many things and be treated with contempt?


The answer to why Jesus said that Elijah had already come and that he will come in the future is found when we compare the effect that John was having at the time and the effect that Elijah will have when he comes, which as is stated in Luke 1:13-17 and Mal 4:5-6 is that both caused the hearts of fathers to turn back to the children.
Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him, “ Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14 “And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb. 16 “And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 “And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
Mal 4:5-6 "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. 6 "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."


John himself said he was not Elijah who is to come.
John 1:19-21 And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" 20 And he confessed, and did not deny, and he confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said^, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

If anybody has an ear, another correlation pointing out Elijah as one of the two witnesses is found in the number 3 ½ years, which is the number of years that He will prophesy during the time the antichrist rules over Jerusalem.
James 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain; and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months.
Rev 11:3-4 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are he two olive trees and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev. 11:6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.


After Elijah had been taken to heaven the prophet Malachi prophesied in Mal 4:5-6 that Elijah would be sent in the future before the great and terrible day of the Lord or the time when Jesus throws the antichrist and the false prophet into the lake of fire and destroy his armies.
Mal 4:5-6 "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. 6 "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

1Kings 17:1 and James 5:17 correlate with Rev 11:3 & 6 in two ways that point out that Elijah is one of the two witnesses. During the time of King Ahab Elijah was given the power to shut up the rain (1King 17:1), which according to Rev 11:6 the same power is given to the two witnesses. The length of time that Elijah shut up the rain during the reign of King Ahab was 3 ½ years (James 5:17), which according to Rev 11:3 is the same length of time that the two witnesses are given the same power.
1Kings 17:1 Now Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the settlers of Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the LORD, the God of Israel lives, before whom I stand, surely there shall be neither dew nor rain these years, except by my word.”
James 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months.
Rev 11:3 “And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
Rev 11:6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.


Jesus tells us that Zerubbabel is be one of the two witnesses in Hag 2:21-23 when He says that He will make Zerubbabel a signet ring at the time He shakes the heavens and the earth.
Hag. 2:21 “Speak to Zerubbabel governor of Judah saying, ‘I am going to shake the heavens and the earth. 22 ‘And I will overthrow the thrones of kingdoms and destroy the power of the kingdoms of the nations; and I will overthrow the chariots and their riders, and the horses and their riders will go down, everyone by the sword of another.’ 23 ‘On that day,’ declares the LORD of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, My servant,’ declares the LORD, ‘and I will make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you,’” declares the LORD of hosts.

Zech 4:6 tells us that Zerubbabel will be one of the two witnesses when after referring to him as one of the two olive trees beside the lamp stand in Zech 4:3 it states that the deeds described in Zech 4: 7 represent the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel.
Zech. 4:1 Then the angel who was speaking with me returned, and roused me as a man who is awakened from his sleep. 2 And he said to me, “ What do you see?” And I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; 3 also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side.” 4 Then I answered and said to the angel who was speaking with me saying, “What are these, my lord?” 5 So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, “ Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 6 Then he answered and said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, ‘ Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the LORD of hosts. 7 ‘What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”’” 8 Also the word of the LORD came to me saying, 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will finish it. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. 10 “For who has despised the day of small things? But these seven will be glad when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel — these are the eyes of the LORD which range to and fro throughout the earth.” 11 Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?” 12 And I answered the second time and said to him, “What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?” 13 So he answered me saying, “ Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.”

Zec 4:14 and Rev 11:3-4 point out that Zerubbabel is one of the two witnesses when they both refer to him as one the two olive trees that stand before the Lord.
Zec 4:12-14 And I answered the second time and said to him, "What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?" 13 So he answered me saying, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord." 14 Then he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth."
Rev 11:3-4 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
 

RandyPNW

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ELIJAH AND ZERUBBABEL ARE THE TWO WITNESSES

Jesus told us that Elijah will be one of the two witnesses
ELIJAH AND ZERUBBABEL ARE THE TWO WITNESSES
I respectfully disagree. I've heard all of these arguments before, and they are legitimate arguments--I just disagree with them. There are answers to every one of your points. And there are reasons for not seeing them as such. I'll try to do so briefly....

1st, nothing in the Scriptures *explicitly* identifies Elijah and Zerubbabel as the 2 witnesses. They remained unnamed in the passage, Rev 11.

2ndly, Elijah may have been caught up alive into heaven, but he had to have died. It is for all men to die. A man cannot live in the sky and still be alive--God obviously took his mortal life away when he raptured him to heaven.

Elijah and Zerubbabel died. They will not be resurrected before the "1st Resurrection." And they will not come back as other people or even as themselves. These ministries may be like them, but the ministers will not, I feel, *be* them!

The comparison of the works of Elijah and Zerubbabel do not mean they are the same people. It means that their ministries are comparable. Who then are the 2 Witnesses? We aren't told.

I do believe that John the Baptist was identified as the fulfillment of "Elijah to come" in Malachi. John denied he was Elijah literally. But he did not deny that he was the fulfillment of the messenger sent ahead of Messiah, which is what the prophecy of "Elijah to come" was all about.

Zerubbabel's promise to have a place in the future Kingdom has nothing to do with the "2 Witnesses" prophecy of Rev 11. He is identified as one of the "2 trees" in Zechariah, which is comparable to the "2 Witnesses" in Rev 11.

But again, this is comparable but not identical. It is purely a motif, indicating that God always has 2 or 3 witnesses to establish a fact or a prophecy or a promise. The "2 Witnesses" or "2 Prophets" of Rev 11 remain unidentified. We should not go beyond Scripture to use pure logic, in my opinion.
 
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RandyPNW

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It is NOT something we need to debate about imho.
Well yea. That often happens when something is not being *explicitly* taught in Scriptures. It's kind of a clue that it doesn't achieve anything more than "curiosity" status--certainly not *doctrinal* status! I'm not, however, averse to discussing anything remotely interesting. ;)
 
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Benjamin Müller

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You missed out on Zechariah 3 with Joshua the High Priest.

verse 3-4 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. The angel said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.” Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.”

To take away filthy clothes was a representation of removing sin. This seems to imply conversion. Remember that chapter breaks are man's invention so after Joshua, we see Zerubbabel in chapter 4 and yet "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.” (v14) Well who are the two? The only two mentioned back to back are Joshua and Zerubbabel.

The Two Witnesses will be the Builder of the Temple / Governor of Judah; and the High Priest according to Zechariah.

As for Elijah being one of the two witnesses, I think Zerubbabel and Elijah are possibly the same character. Different names, same role. Eliakim is another name we could use for one of the Two Witnesses as well.
 
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Happygolucky?

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verse 3-4 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. The angel said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.” Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.”

Who do you think Joshua represents as The Branch who Branches out from where He was at in 520 BC (the Root)? The one who is according to the order of Melchizedek a King And a High Priest.

Zechariah 6:11-13


Also take silver and gold, make an ornate crown, and set it on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest. 12Then say to him, ‘The LORD of armies says this: “Behold, there is a Man whose name is [f]Branch, for He will [g]branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. 13Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the majesty and sit and rule on His throne. So He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two [h]offices.”’


Remember Joshua and Zerubbabel are a “mopheth” or a symbolic representation of future persons in Zechariah 3,4 and 6.


Zechariah 3:8


New International Version
“’Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you,

(hi I’m Zerubbabel and I’m seated before Joshua)

who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.


Eliakim is another name we could use for one of the Two Witnesses as well.

Eliakim is also a mopheth below He has the keys of David. And is a tent peg, to hold up the house of Judah

Isaiah 22:20-24

20“Then it will come about on that day,
That I will summon My servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah,





The only one I know who holds the keys of David

Revelation 3:7




The Cornerstone and Tent Peg from Judah


Zechariah 10:4[/s]


Joshua the high Priest in Zechariah and Eliakim is Isaiah 22, seem to represent Christ
 
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Happygolucky?

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ELIJAH AND ZERUBBABEL ARE THE TWO WITNESSES

Jesus told us that Elijah will be one of the two witnesses in Mal 4:5-6 when He told Malachi He is going to send Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord, which takes place at Armageddon when Jesus throws the Antichrist and the False Prophet into the lake of fire alive and destroys his armies.
Mal 4:5-6 "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. 6 "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

According to Mat 17:10-12 and Mark 9:12 John the Baptist was not the returning Elijah. After John the Baptist had already been beheaded Jesus stated that Elijah is still coming I Mat 17:11 and Mark 9:12.
Matt. 17:10 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you, that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”
Mark 9:11-12 And they asked Him, saying, "Why is it that the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" 12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things. And yet how is it written of the Son of Man that He should suffer many things and be treated with contempt?


The answer to why Jesus said that Elijah had already come and that he will come in the future is found when we compare the effect that John was having at the time and the effect that Elijah will have when he comes, which as is stated in Luke 1:13-17 and Mal 4:5-6 is that both caused the hearts of fathers to turn back to the children.
Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him, “ Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14 “And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb. 16 “And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 “And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
Mal 4:5-6 "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. 6 "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."


John himself said he was not Elijah who is to come.
John 1:19-21 And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" 20 And he confessed, and did not deny, and he confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said^, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

If anybody has an ear, another correlation pointing out Elijah as one of the two witnesses is found in the number 3 ½ years, which is the number of years that He will prophesy during the time the antichrist rules over Jerusalem.
James 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain; and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months.
Rev 11:3-4 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are he two olive trees and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev. 11:6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.


After Elijah had been taken to heaven the prophet Malachi prophesied in Mal 4:5-6 that Elijah would be sent in the future before the great and terrible day of the Lord or the time when Jesus throws the antichrist and the false prophet into the lake of fire and destroy his armies.
Mal 4:5-6 "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. 6 "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

1Kings 17:1 and James 5:17 correlate with Rev 11:3 & 6 in two ways that point out that Elijah is one of the two witnesses. During the time of King Ahab Elijah was given the power to shut up the rain (1King 17:1), which according to Rev 11:6 the same power is given to the two witnesses. The length of time that Elijah shut up the rain during the reign of King Ahab was 3 ½ years (James 5:17), which according to Rev 11:3 is the same length of time that the two witnesses are given the same power.
1Kings 17:1 Now Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the settlers of Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the LORD, the God of Israel lives, before whom I stand, surely there shall be neither dew nor rain these years, except by my word.”
James 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months.
Rev 11:3 “And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
Rev 11:6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.


Jesus tells us that Zerubbabel is be one of the two witnesses in Hag 2:21-23 when He says that He will make Zerubbabel a signet ring at the time He shakes the heavens and the earth.
Hag. 2:21 “Speak to Zerubbabel governor of Judah saying, ‘I am going to shake the heavens and the earth. 22 ‘And I will overthrow the thrones of kingdoms and destroy the power of the kingdoms of the nations; and I will overthrow the chariots and their riders, and the horses and their riders will go down, everyone by the sword of another.’ 23 ‘On that day,’ declares the LORD of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, My servant,’ declares the LORD, ‘and I will make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you,’” declares the LORD of hosts.

Zech 4:6 tells us that Zerubbabel will be one of the two witnesses when after referring to him as one of the two olive trees beside the lamp stand in Zech 4:3 it states that the deeds described in Zech 4: 7 represent the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel.
Zech. 4:1 Then the angel who was speaking with me returned, and roused me as a man who is awakened from his sleep. 2 And he said to me, “ What do you see?” And I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; 3 also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side.” 4 Then I answered and said to the angel who was speaking with me saying, “What are these, my lord?” 5 So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, “ Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 6 Then he answered and said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, ‘ Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the LORD of hosts. 7 ‘What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”’” 8 Also the word of the LORD came to me saying, 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will finish it. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. 10 “For who has despised the day of small things? But these seven will be glad when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel — these are the eyes of the LORD which range to and fro throughout the earth.” 11 Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?” 12 And I answered the second time and said to him, “What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?” 13 So he answered me saying, “ Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.”

Zec 4:14 and Rev 11:3-4 point out that Zerubbabel is one of the two witnesses when they both refer to him as one the two olive trees that stand before the Lord.
Zec 4:12-14 And I answered the second time and said to him, "What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?" 13 So he answered me saying, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord." 14 Then he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth."
Rev 11:3-4 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

Yes, and Zerubbabel is a Mopeth (sign of future person) in Zechariah 4 and Haggai 2. But it is the spirit of Elijah.

In Matthew 17:11 Jesus told us that Elijah must come to restore all things

I’m Matthew 17:12 He makes an allusion as to how Elijah will come, in the same manner that JTB was Elijah.

You can see the “smelting” or purifying in Zechariah 4:10. There’s no plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel it is a living stone and dross. A foreshadowing of “spiritual building” to occur in the future


It is symbolic just as Zechariah 3 is. It is a living stone with impurities/alloy/tin that the 7 Spirits of the Lord see.

Look below at the words translated as plummet in Zechariah 4:10. Is “stone” and “dross”


Zechariah 4:10

Above The 2 words for plummet are actually a stone and tin/alloy/dross



But the Hebrew word for plummet is


Or


It is not tin, which is not native to Israel and it not a really heavy metal such as lead. Zechariah 4:10 does not describe physical building.


Also Zechariah 4:14 is not “2 anointed ones”

It is the “2 sons of Yitshar” (fresh olive oil)
 
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Benjamin Müller

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Joshua the high Priest in Zechariah and Eliakim is Isaiah 22, seem to represent Christ
Christ never sinned so how can God take away Joshua's iniquity? I don't think Joshua and Christ are the same.

I'm inclined to believe that Joshua will be the High Priest of the 3rd Temple, and he is one of the two witnesses.

Which makes sense to me, because when the Beast Power comes with the False Prophet, we see a secular leader and a religious leader working together. Satan's church is a counterfeit, so a secular leader and a religious leader arriving in Israel would provide the contrast. Satan works through deception. If it were possible the antichrist will deceive the very elect. And who better for Satan to label a false prophet than the High Priest of the 3rd Temple? I hear some people say that the 3rd temple will be built by the anti-Christ; but Zerubbabel 'builds' the temple.

Revelation indicates that the Two Witnesses will be in Jerusalem prophesying the entire length of the Tribulation, and are killed there. And the fact that these two refuse to leave, indicates they cannot and/or will not. The Two Witnesses appear to be Jews.

Now whether we have a full 3rd temple or not, I don't know, but the daily sacrifices resume which means there's an altar. In theory we could have a tabernacle, like in the beginning with Moses and then when Christ returns He has the 3rd temple built in full. But either way, it looks like the Two Witnesses are a Governor and a High Priest.
 
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Happygolucky?

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Christ never sinned so how can God take away Joshua's iniquity? I don't think Joshua and Christ are the same.

The symbolism of Joshua


The symbolism of Joshua in Zechariah 3 and 6

That sin upon Joshua, is not His sin, it is our sin. He who knew no sin became sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21

Zechariah 3 is a symbolic representation of what Christ did. It shows the sin of humanity that He bore, as He intercedes on our behalf before JEHOVAH the Father, with the accuser of the brethren at side.

Isaiah 53:8-13

12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the plunder with the strong,
Because He poured out His [m]life unto death,
And was counted with wrongdoers;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the wrongdoer

He is is like a brand plucked from the fire showing the fulfillment of the sign of Jonah. Being in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights. “Like a brand plucked out of the fire”

Matthew 12:40

Psalms 16:10

Acts 2:25-28

25For David says of Him,
‘I SAW THE LORD CONTINUALLY BEFORE ME,
BECAUSE HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
26‘THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE WAS OVERJOYED;
MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
27FOR YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES,
NOR WILL YOU [ab]ALLOW YOUR [ac]HOLY ONE TO [ad]UNDERGO DECAY.
28‘YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE;
YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.’

The angel of the Lord reveals Himself in Zechariah 3:2 when HE says “I JEHOVAH have taken away your sins.”

There is an allusion in Zechariah 3:6-7 to the rule of the High Priest and King. The order of Melchizedek.

Charge of My House- High Priest

Charge over My courts- civil (King)

Joshua is a symbol of the Branch,
That Branch is mentioned in Isaiah 11:1-6. It mentions 7 spirits on that Branch. the Branch is mentioned In Jeremiah 23:5-7
Zechariah 3:8 Joshua is a symbol of the Cornerstone, Zechariah 3:9, King and High Priest Zechariah 6:11–13 the only one who comes according to the order of Melchizedek

11Also take silver and gold, make an ornate crown, and set it on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest. 12Then say to him, ‘The LORD of armies says this: “Behold, there is a Man whose name is [f]Branch, for He will [g]branch out from where He is;

(In 520 BC HE was Root and had not yet Branched out from that Root)
He is the Root and the Branch

and He will build the temple of the LORD. 13Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the majesty and sit and rule on His throne. So He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two [h]offices.”’

Joshua = Yeshua son of Jehozadak or Jehovah is righteous

The problem is, there is only 1 King and High Priest

It is my position that in Zechariah 3 and 6 (for starters) that Joshua is a “mopheth” of Christ
 
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jamesalbright

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I respectfully disagree. I've heard all of these arguments before, and they are legitimate arguments--I just disagree with them. There are answers to every one of your points. And there are reasons for not seeing them as such. I'll try to do so briefly....

1st, nothing in the Scriptures *explicitly* identifies Elijah and Zerubbabel as the 2 witnesses. They remained unnamed in the passage, Rev 11.

2ndly, Elijah may have been caught up alive into heaven, but he had to have died. It is for all men to die. A man cannot live in the sky and still be alive--God obviously took his mortal life away when he raptured him to heaven.

Elijah and Zerubbabel died. They will not be resurrected before the "1st Resurrection." And they will not come back as other people or even as themselves. These ministries may be like them, but the ministers will not, I feel, *be* them!

The comparison of the works of Elijah and Zerubbabel do not mean they are the same people. It means that their ministries are comparable. Who then are the 2 Witnesses? We aren't told.

I do believe that John the Baptist was identified as the fulfillment of "Elijah to come" in Malachi. John denied he was Elijah literally. But he did not deny that he was the fulfillment of the messenger sent ahead of Messiah, which is what the prophecy of "Elijah to come" was all about.

Zerubbabel's promise to have a place in the future Kingdom has nothing to do with the "2 Witnesses" prophecy of Rev 11. He is identified as one of the "2 trees" in Zechariah, which is comparable to the "2 Witnesses" in Rev 11.

But again, this is comparable but not identical. It is purely a motif, indicating that God always has 2 or 3 witnesses to establish a fact or a prophecy or a promise. The "2 Witnesses" or "2 Prophets" of Rev 11 remain unidentified. We should not go beyond Scripture to use pure logic, in my opinion.
You reasoned outside of the scriptures. If you let the scriptures paint the picture you will see that the correlations I posted reveal Elijah and Zerubabbel will be the two witnesses.
 
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jamesalbright

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Yes, and Zerubbabel is a Mopeth (sign of future person) in Zechariah 4 and Haggai 2. But it is the spirit of Elijah.

In Matthew 17:11 Jesus told us that Elijah must come to restore all things

I’m Matthew 17:12 He makes an allusion as to how Elijah will come, in the same manner that JTB was Elijah.

You can see the “smelting” or purifying in Zechariah 4:10. There’s no plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel it is a living stone and dross. A foreshadowing of “spiritual building” to occur in the future


It is symbolic just as Zechariah 3 is. It is a living stone with impurities/alloy/tin that the 7 Spirits of the Lord see.

Look below at the words translated as plummet in Zechariah 4:10. Is “stone” and “dross”


Zechariah 4:10

Above The 2 words for plummet are actually a stone and tin/alloy/dross



But the Hebrew word for plummet is


Or


It is not tin, which is not native to Israel and it not a really heavy metal such as lead. Zechariah 4:10 does not describe physical building.


Also Zechariah 4:14 is not “2 anointed ones”

It is the “2 sons of Yitshar” (fresh olive oil)
You disagree with everything that is stated in the scriptures I posted and you based your disagreements on your own explanations. I meditate on the scriptures alone.
 
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Happygolucky?

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You disagree with everything that is stated in the scriptures I posted and you based your disagreements on your own explanations. I meditate on the scriptures alone.

I agree with just about everything you posted. Zerubbabel is a symbol of 1 of the 2 witnesses in Zechariah 4 and Haggai 2.

He is sitting at the feet of Joshua in Zechariah 3:8 as a “mopeth”


And because


Here is the second definition of the Hebrew word “mopheth” in Zechariah 3:8. It is from Bible hub this definition applies to Zechariah 3:8

2 sign or token of future event (compare אוֺת) 1 Kings 13:3 (twice in verse); 1 Kings 13:5; 2Chronicles 32:24,31; symbolic act Isaiah 20:3 ("" אות); as such the term is applied to persons Isaiah 8:18 ("" אות) Ezekiel 12:6,11; Ezekiel 24:24,27; compare׳אַנְשֵׁי מ Zechariah 3:8 men who serve as a symbol or sign. — Vb. used, of divine act, is נתן Exodus 7:9 etc.,שׂים Jeremiah 32:20; שׂים also of entrusting to human power Exodus 4:21, compare דִּבֶּר 1 Kings 13:3; of human agency עשׂה Exodus 4:21; Exodus 11:10, נתן 1 Kings 13:3,5.

NASB 1995
‘Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you

(Hi I’m Zerubbabel and I’m here)


— indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch

Or do you believe Zerubbabel is not a companion seated before Joshua?

And because I understand the true meaning of Zechariah 4 does not indicate that I am going against scripture
 
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TribulationSigns

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ELIJAH AND ZERUBBABEL ARE THE TWO WITNESSES

Jesus told us that Elijah will be one of the two witnesses in Mal 4:5-6 when He told Malachi He is going to send Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord, which takes place at Armageddon when Jesus throws the Antichrist and the False Prophet into the lake of fire alive and destroys his armies.

No. Please read carefully:

Malachi 4:5

  • "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:"
Even as the Prophecy of Malachi was so obviously literal. So much in fact that there are many misguided souls today who still believe Elijah must physically come again before Christ returns to fulfill that prophecy. Why? Because they simply cannot believe that Christ spiritualized, what to them, is "so obviously literal."

Matthew 17:10-13
  • "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
  • And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
  • But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
  • Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."
Elijah had already come first fulfilling the prophecy, but they didn't know him and thus did to him whatever they listed (chose). It wasn't that Elijah didn't already come exactly as Malachi prophesied, it was that they simply didn't know it because they were looking for all to be fulfilled physically and it spoke in Spirit and truth. Just as they missed the Messiah for the same reason, they were looking for an earthly or physical kingdom, reign, rule, freedom from the Romans, restoration of the nation of Israel physically, etc., etc. But God never intended it to be literally or physically Elijah. Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, we "know" that John the Baptist was the fulfillment:

Luke 1:17
  • "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
John came as metonymy in the same Spirit and Power of Elijah, not physically as Elijah, but after the model. And that is what the Malachi prophesy always meant no matter what Israel's congregation leaders supposed. It doesn't matter that some people don't get it, that's what the prophesy always looked forward to. Christ interpreted the meaning of this to His disciples (Matthew 17:10-13; Luke 1:17) explaining it as referring to John the Baptist who came in the same "Spirit and Power" that characterized the prophet, Elijah. As long as we interpret Scripture by Scripture and not by what "seems" right in our own eyes, or by booksellers, church traditions, or by mimicking ideas of famous theologians, we can not go wrong. Indeed, following your logic, Christ spiritualizes what is so obviously literal. But it's not so, Christ spiritualized what God always intended to be spiritual and not physical/literal, and it is He that sent the Spirit of truth that these things might be made known or revealed to us.

John 14:17
  • "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
Whether one sees these things or not is not in my hands, but in the power of the Spirit of truth that reveals its validity. As it did with the more noble (honest) Bereans, who searched the scriptures daily to see if these things were true or not. As Jews, they didn't simply follow the teachings of the religious leaders of Israel, they followed the word. Thus they believed Christ was indeed the Messiah prophesied in Scripture, and John the baptist indeed came before Him in the Spirit and power of Elijah. What I can say is the carnal mind that looks at things in worldly, carnal, or physical terms of swords, script, and purse does not see these things as truth.

So no, Elijah will not come back as Two Witnesses as you believe. You got the idea about Elijah and ZERUBBABEL as Two Witness all WRONG!
 
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Benjamin Müller

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Zechariah 3:6 Then the Angel of the Lord admonished Joshua, saying, “Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘If you will walk in My ways, And if you will keep My command,"

God never had to admonish Jesus Christ saying IF you will walk in My ways and IF you will keep my commands. There was no 'if' about it; Christ was perfect and has always kept the Father's laws; and the Father Himself said "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him"


Zechariah 3:8 ‘Hear, O Joshua, the high priest, you and your companions who sit before you, for they are a wondrous sign; for behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.

Joshua is not the Branch because God is telling him about His servant the Branch. Just as I mentioned before as the Father said, "This is my beloved son. . .hear him" Joshua is to HEAR to listen to Christ. "Hear, O Joshua" -- you never see this being said in relation to the Son.

Zechariah 3:9 For behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua: Upon the stone are seven eyes.

The Lord has laid the stone before Joshua the same way Christ laid the stone before Peter. Peter led the 1st century Church and the High Priest will led the end-of-the-age church.

Upon the stone are seven eyes, which I believe is recounting the seven eras. Because God's church has always existed, but there are seven eras of it. The church gains momentum, reaches a peak, falls and this has happened six times with one more to go. God's church have been witnesses to the gospel since Pentecost c. 30 AD. It makes sense that the church leader would be one of the two witnesses because that has been the role of the church: to witness before all men that Christ our Savior is coming to set up His Father's throne.

Joshua is not a Jesus Christ. He is being charged with the revival of the church at the end of the age, as Peter was charged with church.
 
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Happygolucky?

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Joshua is not the Branch because God is telling him about His servant the Branch.


No, Joshua is the Branch because In the same encounter with the same angel the same prophet is shown a vision.
A crown is put upon the head of Joshua and He is called “the Branch”

Zechariah 6:12

Niv

Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD.

New Living Translation
Tell him, ‘This is what the LORD of Heaven’s Armies says: Here is the man called the Branch. He will branch out from where he is and build the Temple of the LORD.

English Standard Version
And say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: for he shall branch out from his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD.

Berean Standard Bible
And you are to tell him that this is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘Here is a man whose name is the Branch, and He will branch out from His place and build the temple of the LORD.


Then it states He will be a priest (high priest) on his throne. How many High Priests and Kings after the order of Melchizedek are there? I know of one

Psalms 110:4-5


Zechariah 6:13

13Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the majesty and sit and rule on His throne. So He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two [h]offices.”’

So, Joshua is crowned and called “the Branch”

And He will be a high priest on His throne. A king and High Priest. He will rule as a high priest.


He is not literally Jesus, He is a symbolic representation (mopheth) of Christ. As it says in Zechariah 3:8

Joshua “you and your friends who sit before you are a symbol” (mopheth)
 
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jamesalbright

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No. Please read carefully:

Malachi 4:5

  • "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:"
Even as the Prophecy of Malachi was so obviously literal. So much in fact that there are many misguided souls today who still believe Elijah must physically come again before Christ returns to fulfill that prophecy. Why? Because they simply cannot believe that Christ spiritualized, what to them, is "so obviously literal."

Matthew 17:10-13
  • "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
  • And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
  • But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
  • Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."
Elijah had already come first fulfilling the prophecy, but they didn't know him and thus did to him whatever they listed (chose). It wasn't that Elijah didn't already come exactly as Malachi prophesied, it was that they simply didn't know it because they were looking for all to be fulfilled physically and it spoke in Spirit and truth. Just as they missed the Messiah for the same reason, they were looking for an earthly or physical kingdom, reign, rule, freedom from the Romans, restoration of the nation of Israel physically, etc., etc. But God never intended it to be literally or physically Elijah. Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, we "know" that John the Baptist was the fulfillment:

Luke 1:17
  • "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
John came as metonymy in the same Spirit and Power of Elijah, not physically as Elijah, but after the model. And that is what the Malachi prophesy always meant no matter what Israel's congregation leaders supposed. It doesn't matter that some people don't get it, that's what the prophesy always looked forward to. Christ interpreted the meaning of this to His disciples (Matthew 17:10-13; Luke 1:17) explaining it as referring to John the Baptist who came in the same "Spirit and Power" that characterized the prophet, Elijah. As long as we interpret Scripture by Scripture and not by what "seems" right in our own eyes, or by booksellers, church traditions, or by mimicking ideas of famous theologians, we can not go wrong. Indeed, following your logic, Christ spiritualizes what is so obviously literal. But it's not so, Christ spiritualized what God always intended to be spiritual and not physical/literal, and it is He that sent the Spirit of truth that these things might be made known or revealed to us.

John 14:17
  • "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
Whether one sees these things or not is not in my hands, but in the power of the Spirit of truth that reveals its validity. As it did with the more noble (honest) Bereans, who searched the scriptures daily to see if these things were true or not. As Jews, they didn't simply follow the teachings of the religious leaders of Israel, they followed the word. Thus they believed Christ was indeed the Messiah prophesied in Scripture, and John the baptist indeed came before Him in the Spirit and power of Elijah. What I can say is the carnal mind that looks at things in worldly, carnal, or physical terms of swords, script, and purse does not see these things as truth.

So no, Elijah will not come back as Two Witnesses as you believe. You got the idea about Elijah and ZERUBBABEL as Two Witness all WRONG!
You obviously didn't read my post. I addressed this through the scriptures in my original post.
 
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Happygolucky?

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Zerubbabel is not a symbol. He is one of the two witnesses.

Zerubbabel of that era is not coming back.

The Bible tells us that Joshua, Zerubbabel and others are a symbol of things to come. That is what a mopheth is


Zechariah 3:8



New Living Translation
“Listen to me, O Jeshua the high priest, and all you other priests. You are symbols of things to come. Soon I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

English Standard Version
Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who sit before you, for they are men who are a sign: behold, I will bring my servant the Branch.




New King James Version
‘Hear, O Joshua, the high priest, You and your companions who sit before you, For they are a wondrous sign; For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.


NASB 1995
‘Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you— indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.

In Zechariah 3 Joshua the high priest never physically, stood before the Lord with Satan and his right hand. He was never there in front of the Lord, in dirty Burnt clothing, like a coal that was plucked out of a fire. He didn’t have a literal stone with seven eyes before him. Anyone who is reasonable and reading that would NOT think that is literal. However, even greater than our logic and reasoning is the explanation in Zechariah 3:8

‘Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you— indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.

Because it tells us that Joshua is a symbol or a sign, or a token of a future person. A mopheth

Joshua is a symbol (mopheth) of a future person. Furthermore, the things in described in Zechariah 3 are also a mopheth. Not only because text shows that he is symbolic, but because it directly says he is a symbol in Zechariah 3:8

Now this is somewhat easy to see in Zechariah 3. Most reasonable readers would admit that Joshua the high priest is not physically standing before the LORD. However, what has been hidden for millennia, is that Zerubbabel in Zechariah 4, is in the same manner, a mopheth. Just as the Joshua of that era did Absolutely nothing in Chapter 3, so it is regarding Zerubabbel in chapter 4. Nothing was fulfilled by the men of that era, in regards to Zechariah 3,4,6.

Zechariah 3:8 NIV

8“ ‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates
(hi I’m Zerubbabel and I’m here)
seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

This is why 2 verses later the same prophet, in the same encounter with the same angel, is Roused from a sleep like state to this:

Zechariah 4:2-3

2And he said to me, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven [a]spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; 3also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side.”

What does it mean? Well luckily the angel interprets it for us.

Zechariah 4:6

Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the LORD of armies.

That vision is the word of the LORD to one of the 2 witnesses. It has nothing to do with the Zerubbabel of that era. In the same manner that Joshua is a symbol in Zechariah 3, so it is with Zerubbabel in chapter 4.

Zerubbabel of that era is not coming back.
 
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jamesalbright

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Zerubbabel of that era is not coming back.

The Bible tells us that Joshua, Zerubbabel and others are a symbol of things to come. That is what a mopheth is


Zechariah 3:8



New Living Translation
“Listen to me, O Jeshua the high priest, and all you other priests. You are symbols of things to come. Soon I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

English Standard Version
Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who sit before you, for they are men who are a sign: behold, I will bring my servant the Branch.




New King James Version
‘Hear, O Joshua, the high priest, You and your companions who sit before you, For they are a wondrous sign; For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.


NASB 1995
‘Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you— indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.

In Zechariah 3 Joshua the high priest never physically, stood before the Lord with Satan and his right hand. He was never there in front of the Lord, in dirty Burnt clothing, like a coal that was plucked out of a fire. He didn’t have a literal stone with seven eyes before him. Anyone who is reasonable and reading that would NOT think that is literal. However, even greater than our logic and reasoning is the explanation in Zechariah 3:8

‘Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you— indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.

Because it tells us that Joshua is a symbol or a sign, or a token of a future person. A mopheth

Joshua is a symbol (mopheth) of a future person. Furthermore, the things in described in Zechariah 3 are also a mopheth. Not only because text shows that he is symbolic, but because it directly says he is a symbol in Zechariah 3:8

Now this is somewhat easy to see in Zechariah 3. Most reasonable readers would admit that Joshua the high priest is not physically standing before the LORD. However, what has been hidden for millennia, is that Zerubbabel in Zechariah 4, is in the same manner, a mopheth. Just as the Joshua of that era did Absolutely nothing in Chapter 3, so it is regarding Zerubabbel in chapter 4. Nothing was fulfilled by the men of that era, in regards to Zechariah 3,4,6.

Zechariah 3:8 NIV

8“ ‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates
(hi I’m Zerubbabel and I’m here)
seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

This is why 2 verses later the same prophet, in the same encounter with the same angel, is Roused from a sleep like state to this:

Zechariah 4:2-3

2And he said to me, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven [a]spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; 3also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side.”

What does it mean? Well luckily the angel interprets it for us.

Zechariah 4:6

Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the LORD of armies.

That vision is the word of the LORD to one of the 2 witnesses. It has nothing to do with the Zerubbabel of that era. In the same manner that Joshua is a symbol in Zechariah 3, so it is with Zerubbabel in chapter 4.

Zerubbabel of that era is not coming back.
Your opinion contradicts the dreams I posted and the more recent dreams I read.
 
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