Elements other than Bread and Wine in Eucharist?

[Padres1969]

I've come across a somewhat troubling notion that is apparently more widespread in the Anglican Communion than I'd originally thought and was curious as to people's response to it. Namely the notion of some parishes and even Provinces of the Communion utilizing elements other than bread and wine to attempt to confect Eucharist.

It appears the Anglican Communion did a survey a number of years back on the subject and it was found that in some parishes or provinces, elements such as grape juice, raisins boiled in water, Coca-Cola, Fanta, Banana Juice, Pineapple Juice, Passion Fruit wine, biscuits, rice cakes are being used as Eucharistic elements. This despite the Communion affirming that bread and wine are to be the elements of Eucharist. These innovations do appear more widespread in the African provinces and Islamic majority provinces ironically enough.

http://www.anglicancommunion.org/media/42392/ialc_report_on_elements_used_in_communion.pdf

I know the Communion, while affirming bread and wine are to be the elements of Communion, doesn't specifically explain what bread and wine are even though we have biblical explanations of what both were and are, but some of what I've listed above would seem to go well beyond any stretched definition of the terms, no?

 

[Albion]

I've come across a somewhat troubling notion that is apparently more widespread in the Anglican Communion than I'd originally thought and was curious as to people's response to it. Namely the notion of some parishes and even Provinces of the Communion utilizing elements other than bread and wine to attempt to confect Eucharist.

It appears the Anglican Communion did a survey a number of years back on the subject and it was found that in some parishes or provinces, elements such as grape juice, raisins boiled in water, Coca-Cola, Fanta, Banana Juice, Pineapple Juice, Passion Fruit wine, biscuits, rice cakes are being used as Eucharistic elements. This despite the Communion affirming that bread and wine are to be the elements of Eucharist. These innovations do appear more widespread in the African provinces and Islamic majority provinces ironically enough.

I'm surprised only because I thought this was something that popped up during the era of experimental liturgies and such things that were in vogue a couple of generations back.

 

[SnowyMacie]

To mean, "bread and wine" is clear enough. It means a basic baked wheat product and fermented grape juice. I'm not super picky and think the Eucharist is going to invalid if you have yeast in it or anything besides a basic cracker/wafer thing, and think it's perfectly acceptable to have a gluten free and alcohol-free on request. If you're have rice cakes and coca-cola, I don't think that's a Eucharist feast.

 

[Padres1969]

To mean, "bread and wine" is clear enough. It means a basic baked wheat product and fermented grape juice. I'm not super picky and think the Eucharist is going to invalid if you have yeast in it or anything besides a basic cracker/wafer thing, and think it's perfectly acceptable to have a gluten free and alcohol-free on request. If you're have rice cakes and coca-cola, I don't think that's a Eucharist feast.

Yeah I mean I'm not super picky either. I wouldn't think that dealcoholized wine (ie: wine that was fermented and the alcohol removed but still has the trace amounts) or the "gluten free wafers" that are really just significantly reduced gluten would be an issue. We could debate grape juice and "gluten free" bread/wafers but at least they'd still be a form of bread and still be made from grapes. The line is somewhere at or between the two I'd think.

My bigger concern is things like Rice Cakes, Banana Juice, Fanta and Coca Cola which can in no way be taken even to be bread and wine even by a stretched definition of the terms.

 

[Tolworth John]

Yeah I mean I'm not super picky either. I wouldn't think that dealcoholized wine (ie: wine that was fermented and the alcohol removed but still has the trace amounts) or the "gluten free wafers" that are really just significantly reduced gluten would be an issue. We could debate grape juice and "gluten free" bread/wafers but at least they'd still be a form of bread and still be made from grapes. The line is somewhere at or between the two I'd think.

My bigger concern is things like Rice Cakes, Banana Juice, Fanta and Coca Cola which can in no way be taken even to be bread and wine even by a stretched definition of the terms.

Surely the vital element in communion is faith.

 

[Albion]

Surely the vital element in communion is faith.

But each sacrament makes use of physical elements. That's because they were used by Christ in instituting the sacrament. Use none or other ones and you don't have the sacrament. You can still have faith in Christ, of course.

 

[Tolworth John]

But each sacrament makes use of physical elements. That's because they were used by Christ in instituting the sacrament. Use none or other ones and you don't have the sacrament. You can still have faith in Christ, of course.

And communion is highly symbolic, bread representing Jesus's body, wine his blood.

If you believe that Jesus died and rose for you and you are celebrating communion, to me it does not matter if coke and rice cakes are used or water and cracker or tea and biscuits.
It is who we have faith in that counts.

 

[Padres1969]

Surely the vital element in communion is faith.

Along with a priest and bread and wine...

Faith in Christ of course doesn't require bread and wine. But to make him become actually present in the Eucharist... it takes more than just faith. Otherwise every Tom, Dick and Harry layman would be able to confect a valid Eucharist.

 

[Albion]

And communion is highly symbolic, bread representing Jesus's body, wine his blood.

For most Christians, and certainly for Anglicans, it's not just symbolism

If you believe that Jesus died and rose for you and you are celebrating communion, to me it does not matter if coke and rice cakes are used or water and cracker or tea and biscuits..

You are indeed entitled to whatever religious beliefs you hold.

 

[Tolworth John]

Along with a priest and bread and wine...

Faith in Christ of course doesn't require bread and wine. But to make him become actually presnet in the Eucharist... it takes more than just faith. Otherwise every Tom, Dick and Harry layman would be able to confect a valid Eucharist.

There you have one of the fundamental differencies between Protestants and RC and Eastern/Greek Orthodox.
One believes every believer is a priest and theothers don't.

 

[Albion]

There you have one of the fundamental differencies between Protestants and RC and Eastern/Greek Orthodox.
One believes every believer is a priest and theothers don't.

Actually, informed Protestants don't believe that everyone is a priest. The verse you are thinking of doesn't make every congregant a priest; it means that the body of the people of God have a say in the functioning of the church unlike the former Hebrew and Roman Catholic systems where the decision was imposed by higher-ups.

 

[PloverWing]

I wouldn't want a community to use different elements for trivial reasons. In North America and Europe, bread and wine are available and affordable, and we should use them (though I think gluten-free wafers and non-fermented grape juice for those with gluten or alcohol difficulties are reasonable substitutions).

But in reading the report, it looks like wheat bread and grape wine are not easily available in some regions of the Anglican communion. Bread and wine were everyday food for people in first-century Palestine, and Jesus chose these as elements for the Sacrament. In places where wheat and/or grapes are not local foods, and are expensive imports, or (in the case of wine) illegal, it seems to me a pastorally compassionate choice to allow churches to substitute their own locally-available food and drink. I see this as fitting the spirit of what Jesus was doing when he chose bread and wine.

 

[Padres1969]

And communion is highly symbolic, bread representing Jesus's body, wine his blood.

If you believe that Jesus died and rose for you and you are celebrating communion, to me it does not matter if coke and rice cakes are used or water and cracker or tea and biscuits.
It is who we have faith in that counts.

Well keep in mind Anglicans believe Eucharist to more than merely memorial or representative. We believe during Mass that Christ becomes truly present in the Eucharist.

 

[Paidiske]

Gluten free bread I have no problem with. And having seen the pastoral impact of re-admitting a woman to communion who had been unable to partake for years, when gluten free wafers were introduced, I think having them makes a big (positive) difference. I'm more ambivalent about grape juice - not least because it requires a move away from a common cup - but it's not unheard of here and I can see the argument.

On the whole, in a western country, I'm not keen on moving beyond that. I have heard a very persuasive argument for rice crackers in a country where rice is the principal grain and wheat is not available; in a sense, the local form of "bread." (After all, can bread only be made with wheat, or would not barley bread, millet bread, or the like have been common in 1st century Palestine also?)

But soft drinks, biscuits (not just a plain "bread" but something with sweeteners and other additives), and the like, I simply can't see any argument for.

 

[SteveCaruso]

If the "biscuits and coke" situation is a matter of "there is literally nothing else available and they've already been consecrated" I would – with some reservation – accept it as Irregular But Valid.

If given a position of choice in the matter, though, I would recommend first considering bread and wine made from wild grain and fermented wild berries or fruit (even if it's "new wine"); and if not that, abstention.

 

[FireDragon76]

This does raise questions because in some African countries they can't grow wheat at all. Beer and bread, as much as they are consumed, are often made from millet or sorghum. Likewise, in some parts of Asia, wheat is not a significant part of the diet except in trace amounts. The rich cultural symbolism of bread is lost. In fact much of the imagery in the Bible on this matter is lost. In some Arctic countries missionaries had to tell the natives that Jesus was the "seal meat that came down from heaven".

The typical wafer used in Catholic/Anglican churches doesn't even really resemble common bread anymore. It's its own thing, and its origins was dependent on a kind of belief in clerical power and authority that is not shared by most Protestants. Yet nontheless, it is traditional in use and my own church uses it (though I receive a wafer made from wheat starch only baked by Catholic nuns, which is less than ideal as it "melts in your mouth, not in your hand" in a strange rubbery way, but it's either that or something that resembles a strange potato chip). So I think this is a somewhat open theological issue.

I would never use or receive soda pop in the Eucharist, that's just wrong on so many levels.

 

[Albion]

The typical wafer used in Catholic/Anglican churches doesn't even really resemble common bread anymore.

That's right--it doesn't resemble bread. However, it is made of flour, so that resolves any possible problem IMHO.

 

[FireDragon76]

That's right--it doesn't resemble bread. However, it is made of flour, so that resolves any possible problem IMHO.

I thought about this more, and I think the intentions are really what is important, especially from a Lutheran/Reformed POV- the power is not in the elements themselves, but the elements being joined with the Word. Nevertheless, I do think generally wheat bread and wine should be used, and if that is not possible, then a close approximation. I don't think seal meat would really be appropriate, though. In the past Christians as they travelled around the world would often have to bring in supplies for their churches and I think people should not discount the need to secure dignified elements for the sacrament.

Those folks in Muslim countries are enduring difficult circumstances but they should avoid bringing unnecessary scandal into the worldwide body of Anglicans by using undignified elements. Anglicans do not believe, after all, that the sacrament is absolutely necessary for salvation (neither do any other Protestant groups), and there can be spiritual harm in neglecting the dignity of the sacrament.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I think using elements other than bread and wine trivializes the sacrament. I am opposed to it, just as I am opposed to a casual, symbolic approach to communion and/or one that omits the words of institution. I confess I have felt ill-at-ease when worshipping with other faith groups that have a very casual approach to the sacrament.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think raisins are perfectly Ok for making a communion wine substitute. Indeed, there are wines made from raisins rather than grapes. Catholics and Orthodox have done that in concentration camps before to celebrate Mass.