Electricity on the Sabbath

[danny ski]

LOL!! You're not bound by the rules of our Judges. Do whatever you like. Go wherever "spirit" takes you

 

[gadar perets]

If people choose to follow that as their understanding of the necessary outworking of the Law, it is not for other posters to make disrespectful / mocking comments about creating death or not walking on carpets, that reflect negatively on those who observe the restrictions.

Neither of those posts were disrespectful or mocking. They were questioning how far we are to take the belief that we cannot create on Sabbath. If those examples expose the weakness of such a position, then refute the statements without disparaging the posters.

 

[pat34lee]

I disagree.

!000's of Orthodox Jews, and others, take the view on not creating on Shabbat on the basis that, if G_d did not create on the 7th day, then neither should man unnecessarily create, as with the command to not create fire. Try going to the Western Wall during Shabbat and taking a photo or film of what is happening, you will see whether it is deemed to be a real requirement of the Law, as it is understood.

If people choose to follow that as their understanding of the necessary outworking of the Law, it is not for other posters to make disrespectful / mocking comments about creating death or not walking on carpets, that reflect negatively on those who observe the restrictions.

There are many on all sides of this issue. All of them are wrong;
either totally or to some degree. Of course, I include myself, as I
have no prophetic gift that I know of. The traditions of the Rabbis
are not binding unless people choose to follow them. Historically,
they didn't come from Moses, and have no biblical or YHWH-given
authority.

I saw nothing disrespectful about the questions on whether the
traditions go overboard. They do, when they create fences around
the Torah. It gets easy to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel when
you are fixated on minutiae.

 

[Heber Book List]

Neither of those posts were disrespectful or mocking. They were questioning how far we are to take the belief that we cannot create on Sabbath. If those examples expose the weakness of such a position, then refute the statements without disparaging the posters.

I have

 

[Heber Book List]

There are many on all sides of this issue. All of them are wrong;
either totally or to some degree. Of course, I include myself, as I
have no prophetic gift that I know of. The traditions of the Rabbis
are not binding unless people choose to follow them. Historically,
they didn't come from Moses, and have no biblical or YHWH-given
authority.

I saw nothing disrespectful about the questions on whether the
traditions go overboard. They do, when they create fences around
the Torah. It gets easy to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel when
you are fixated on minutiae.

So you would have absolutely no further definition of what G_d means by any of his words - only those specific, certified pure words of G_d are valid? Binary answer: yes or no

 

[Heber Book List]

I was not addressing forbidden work, but the belief that we are forbidden to create anything.

So who said that we are forbidden to create anything ?

 

[gadar perets]

So who said that we are forbidden to create anything ?

While your post #8 did not use the word "anything", the implication is clear that since "G_d" did not create on the 7th day, then we should not either.

"The 'work' you are not meant to do is to switch on a light because in doing so you create a spark - G_d refrained from creation on the 7th day - so should you, so: no photography (creating images etc., some would prohibit sex, and probably no using a computer), no car (creates sparks, but cycling does not!), no cooking (manual labour and creating heat, though heat left on from before Shabbat is ok). No un-necessary manual labour or non-manual labour. Most of the Shabbat laws are there to protect man from himself - encouraging him to take a rest, as G_d rested from creation. " (Bold and blue mine)
​

So, if we "create heat", we have broken the Sabbath. You said cycling does not create a spark, but does it not create heat on the tires via friction? My entire point is, where do we draw the line?

 

[Heber Book List]

While your post #8 did not use the word "anything", the implication is clear that since "G_d" did not create on the 7th day, then we should not either.

"The 'work' you are not meant to do is to switch on a light because in doing so you create a spark - G_d refrained from creation on the 7th day - so should you, so: no photography (creating images etc., some would prohibit sex, and probably no using a computer), no car (creates sparks, but cycling does not!), no cooking (manual labour and creating heat, though heat left on from before Shabbat is ok). No un-necessary manual labour or non-manual labour. Most of the Shabbat laws are there to protect man from himself - encouraging him to take a rest, as G_d rested from creation. " (Bold and blue mine)
​

So, if we "create heat", we have broken the Sabbath. You said cycling does not create a spark, but does it not create heat on the tires via friction? My entire point is, where do we draw the line?

I didn't add all the rest - you did. Not really my problem. All the things I quoted derive, initially, from the command not to kindle (in case that is mistaken by readers, it does not mean Amazon's Kindle) on Shabbat. Kindling creates sparks, fire and heat, from which it is derived that we should not create on Shabbat, of which I gave examples. This applies to sensible things, as has already been pointed out to you by another poster. Attempts to make it seem that it might also mean creating the death of ants is laughable and disrespectful, and undermines the way millions live in relation to their Shabbat obedience to G_d's commands.

Would you use the same levity with the things that Christians and Messianics do that you consider could apply to the animal kingdom? I doubt it.

 

[gadar perets]

I didn't add all the rest - you did. Not really my problem. All the things I quoted derive, initially, from the command not to kindle (in case that is mistaken by readers, it does not mean Amazon's Kindle) on Shabbat. Kindling creates sparks, fire and heat, from which it is derived that we should not create on Shabbat, of which I gave examples. This applies to sensible things, as has already been pointed out to you by another poster. Attempts to make it seem that it might also mean creating the death of ants is laughable and disrespectful, and undermines the way millions live in relation to their Shabbat obedience to G_d's commands.,

Why isn't it disrespectful of my beliefs to tell me I can't drive a car or turn on a light on Sabbath?

Would you use the same levity with the things that Christians and Messianics do that you consider could apply to the animal kingdom? I doubt it.

I have no idea what you mean here.

 

[Heber Book List]

Why isn't it disrespectful of my beliefs to tell me I can't drive a car or turn on a light on Sabbath?


I have no idea what you mean here.

a) I didn't tell you, I wrote what 1000s believe about Shabbat, by pointing out that the OP should not be referring to 'work', in relation to light switches - that is not a correct understanding. If you internalise it that is your choice.

b) What about issues in Christianity and MJ that are 'required', but not the precise Word of God - would you reduce them to dealing with ants (I am NOT getting into a conversation about this!)? I doubt it.

 

[gadar perets]

a) I didn't tell you, I wrote what 1000s believe about Shabbat, by pointing out that the OP should not be referring to 'work', in relation to light switches - that is not a correct understanding. If you internalise it that is your choice.

And I was defending what 1000s believe about Shabbat (that it is permissible to turn on a light or a car).

 

[Heber Book List]

And I was defending what 1000s believe about Shabbat (that it is permissible to turn on a light or a car).

Then you just needed to say that!

 

[Dave-W]

I am not one for making the Sabbath about a certain day. I believe Jesus is our Sabbath.

And which day did HE observe as the Sabbath?

 

[Dave-W]

Where does the Bible say anything about 'the law of death'?

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

 

[Dave-W]

Last night I finally figured out this is what some orthodox Jews do ( leave on a light.) although it does honestly sound a little bit like man made tradition to me.

ArtScroll.com - Shabbos Reading Lamps

 

[pat34lee]

So you would have absolutely no further definition of what G_d means by any of his words - only those specific, certified pure words of G_d are valid? Binary answer: yes or no

Have you stopped beating your dog? Yes or no

 

[gadar perets]

Romans 8:2

The "law of sin and death" does not refer to the Law of YHWH. It refers to the principle that if you sin (break the law), you will die. "The law of the Spirit of life" is also a principle. If you read the verse in context, you will see that the Law of YHWH/Moses is not abolished.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Yeshua Messiah our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
​

It is the carnal mind that refuses to be subject to YHWH's laws, but the Spirit led mind will be subject to it.

 

[Heber Book List]

Have you stopped beating your dog? Yes or no

I don't have one but you haven't made a decisive answer, yet.

 

[Heber Book List]

I never did that, stop lying or I will report you.



The law of the jews is very much dead to gentiles. We Christians are not under the law

So the 10 Commandments are no longer anything to do with Christians? Given that many church buildings have these words from The Law painted on walls, or somewhere else, it is a little surprising that you hold this view.

 

[pat34lee]

I don't have one but you haven't made a decisive answer, yet.

You get the point though. You framed the question where
yes and no do not apply.

Is anything scripture but scripture? No.
Can there be truth in other writings? Yes.
If there is conflict, which to believe? Scripture.

Is there translation error in scripture?
Sure, but nothing that changes the message.
[except in some funky versions like the NIV]