Electric cars are all the rage in Israel

ffinder

Burned but alive!!
Dec 7, 2003
142
8
58
Europe
Visit site
✟363.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
FT.com / Reportage - Electric cars are all the rage in Israel

...Agassi, a boyish 42, founded and runs Better Place, the company which built Renault’s market for the electric version of the Fluence. We are at his visitors’ centre, just off a motorway and opposite the headquarters of Israel’s spy agency, Mossad. This site used to store the country’s fuel reserves, and the symbolism of housing an electric-vehicle venture here is not lost on this oil-importing nation dependent on hostile neighbours to run its two million cars. (As one Israeli puts it, “We buy their oil, and they repay us in another form – kinetic energy, rockets!”)...

...The company says that it has signed up just over 5,000 customers and – more importantly – secured commitments to switch to electric cars from over 150 corporate fleets controlling 55,000 vehicles. (About 60 per cent of the 200,000 cars sold annually in Israel go to commercial fleets).

Better Place’s progress will be watched closely elsewhere: in addition to the nationwide deployment planned in Denmark, the company has regional projects in Ontario, Canberra, Hawaii and the San Francisco area, some of which are due to expand later. Crucially, Better Place also has a foothold in China, where Chery Automobile – a rising carmaker that has a joint venture with the Israel Corp – recently agreed to develop battery-switch technology with it...
 

Greenling

Member
Aug 22, 2010
87
1
UK
Visit site
✟15,217.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Greens
And that's merely one of hundreds of initiatives around the world related to electric vehicles. In 7-10 years I expect sales of electric cars to be outnumbering gasoline motors worldwide. I don't expect my next car to be electric, but the one after that will quite likely be so. And I'm talking of vehicles that are wholly electric -- not hybrid, which I regard as merely a transitional step on the way.
 
Upvote 0

bigbadwilf

Drinking from the glass half-empty
Dec 22, 2008
790
49
Oxford, UK
✟8,706.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Israel does have a distinct advantage as far as renewables are concerned, with a Mediterranian/desert climate then photovoltaic electricity -> electrically powered cars is a practical option.
Now all we in the UK need is a way to generate electricity from its normal climate...
 
Upvote 0

Auburn88

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2010
440
23
✟820.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
FT.com / Reportage - Electric cars are all the rage in Israel

...Agassi, a boyish 42, founded and runs Better Place, the company which built Renault’s market for the electric version of the Fluence. We are at his visitors’ centre, just off a motorway and opposite the headquarters of Israel’s spy agency, Mossad. This site used to store the country’s fuel reserves, and the symbolism of housing an electric-vehicle venture here is not lost on this oil-importing nation dependent on hostile neighbours to run its two million cars. (As one Israeli puts it, “We buy their oil, and they repay us in another form – kinetic energy, rockets!”)...

...The company says that it has signed up just over 5,000 customers and – more importantly – secured commitments to switch to electric cars from over 150 corporate fleets controlling 55,000 vehicles. (About 60 per cent of the 200,000 cars sold annually in Israel go to commercial fleets).

Better Place’s progress will be watched closely elsewhere: in addition to the nationwide deployment planned in Denmark, the company has regional projects in Ontario, Canberra, Hawaii and the San Francisco area, some of which are due to expand later. Crucially, Better Place also has a foothold in China, where Chery Automobile – a rising carmaker that has a joint venture with the Israel Corp – recently agreed to develop battery-switch technology with it...

Now in Hawaii, where you're on an island and your limited to relatively short trips, I can see how an electric car would be great. Israel, too. Israel is a pretty small place and they don't have the massive highway system that we do.

But I just don't think electric cars will go over well here, based on the long distances we drive between one place and another.

We actually considered an electric truck a couple of years ago, but forgot about it because we discovered that it just isn't practical.
 
Upvote 0

Greenling

Member
Aug 22, 2010
87
1
UK
Visit site
✟15,217.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Greens
Electric trucks are practical and cost effective in particular situations. Namely in depot-based fleets where the daily mileages are predictable, and are comfortably within the range between rechargings.

That might sound like a limited niche, but there are actually tens of thousands of such fleets. Every local postal service worldwide uses vehicles in that way. In Japan, all 21,000 local post vans are being replaced with electric vehicles, beginning with 1000 followed by 3000 a year. If you go to the Smith EV website at Smith Electric Vehicles - the world's largest manufacturer of commercial electric vehicles and select the Rest Of The World section, then view the Case Studies page, you will see hundreds of electric trucks already in daily use by dozens of fleets. The company's American wing is supplying 176 trucks to Pepsico's FritoLay fleet, for use on local runs in US and Canadian cities.

Clearly they are not suited to inter-state routes. But their widespread acceptance in local delivery fleets would do wonders for the scaling up of battery production, and other components -- which in turn will help bring down the cost of smaller battery modules and EV components for cars. The race is on.

There are also electric ferry boats, electric aircraft, and electric speedboats and motorbikes. The future is electric!

The cleaner the source of that electricity the better of course. But even when using coalfired generation, the overall pollution audit favours EVs.
 
Upvote 0

Auburn88

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2010
440
23
✟820.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Greenling said:
Every local postal service worldwide uses vehicles in that way.

My sister is the Postmaster in her town and I don't believe she'd agree with you.

Because we run two businesses that use the USPS for our shipping, we spend a lot of time at different post offices. I've never seen an electric vehicle at any of them.
 
Upvote 0

Greenling

Member
Aug 22, 2010
87
1
UK
Visit site
✟15,217.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Greens
..But I just don't think electric cars will go over well here, based on the long distances we drive between one place and another...

With the present range of battery powered cars I agree. But on any long trip, you have to fill up with diesel or gasoline every few hundred miles. We already have trucks in which the battery pack can be swung out and swapped for a fresh one, using a forklift truck, taking about 15 minutes per pitstop. Once that arrangement becomes more widely available, and battery range doubles or trebles, swapping a batterypack could be almost as convenient as refilling a fuel tank.
 
Upvote 0

Auburn88

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2010
440
23
✟820.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
With the present range of battery powered cars I agree. But on any long trip, you have to fill up with diesel or gasoline every few hundred miles. We already have trucks in which the battery pack can be swung out and swapped for a fresh one, using a forklift truck, taking about 15 minutes per pitstop. Once that arrangement becomes more widely available, and battery range doubles or trebles, swapping a batterypack could be almost as convenient as refilling a fuel tank.

Except that I can drive from here to the Florida Keys an only have to fill my tank twice and that only takes about five minutes.

What's more, there are also issues with the power needed for the heavy towing capacity it takes to haul boats and trailers.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Greenling

Member
Aug 22, 2010
87
1
UK
Visit site
✟15,217.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Greens
My sister is the Postmaster in her town and I don't believe she'd agree with you.

Because we run two businesses that use the USPS for our shipping, we spend a lot of time at different post offices. I've never seen an electric vehicle at any of them.

I didn't say you will find EVs in such use. I said that such fleets are ideal for EV use. Japan Post have reached that conclusion are have started their switchover. La Poste in France are heading the same way. In the UK, Royal Mail are still trialling EVs - but as an ex-postie myself, I know that the average daily run of a local delivery van is so well within range that they'd only need recharging 2-3 times a week.

Early days yet, I know. But it's surely gonna happen :)
 
Upvote 0

ACougar

U.S. Army Retired
Feb 7, 2003
16,795
1,295
Arizona
Visit site
✟37,952.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Why not harness energy from Sun, Wind, Tide, Geothermal energy, these technologies are still very young however they already provide 19% (mostly hydro) of the worlds energy.

Now all we need to do is sort out a clean way to generate the electricity.
 
Upvote 0

Phylogeny

Veteran
Dec 28, 2004
1,599
134
✟2,426.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
Wave of the future? I'm hoping we will find a way to harnass energy from the sun and wind....much less than limiting than fossil fuel (and maybe more environmentally friendly). Whatever happens, I predict oil's dominance will waver as it becomes an increasingly scarce commodity while our energy demands keeps growing.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ffinder

Burned but alive!!
Dec 7, 2003
142
8
58
Europe
Visit site
✟363.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Apart from certain limited all-electric applications, my money is still on hydrogen.

So your money can buy you a hydrogen car? and then where are the hydrogen stations to fill up your hydrogen car?

1) A hydrogen car costs over 300'000 dollars to make right now
2) The energy (aka hydrogen gas) costs three times as normal gasoline
3) A huge infrastructure shift would need to happen for this car to be viable

Honda Clarity .. estimated at $300,000!!!

The hydrogen car fights back - Oct. 14, 2009

from Wikipedia:

.. hydrogen vehicles may never become broadly available.[43][63] They believe that the focus on the use of the hydrogen car is a dangerous detour from more readily available solutions to reducing the use of fossil fuels in vehicles.[64] In May 2008, Wired News reported that "experts say it will be 40 years or more before hydrogen has any meaningful impact on gasoline consumption or global warming, and we can't afford to wait that long. In the meantime, fuel cells are diverting resources from more immediate solutions."[65]

K. G. Duleep speculates that "a strong case exists for continuing fuel-efficiency improvements from conventional technology at relatively low cost."[66] Critiques of hydrogen vehicles are presented in the 2006 documentary, Who Killed the Electric Car?. According to former U.S. Department of Energy official Joseph Romm, "A hydrogen car is one of the least efficient, most expensive ways to reduce greenhouse gases." Asked when hydrogen cars will be broadly available, Romm replied: "Not in our lifetime, and very possibly never."[66] The Los Angeles Times wrote, in February 2009, "Hydrogen fuel-cell technology won't work in cars.... Any way you look at it, hydrogen is a lousy way to move cars."[67] A 2007 article in Technology Review stated, "In the context of the overall energy economy, a car like the BMW Hydrogen 7 would probably produce far more carbon dioxide emissions than gasoline-powered cars available today. And changing this calculation would take multiple breakthroughs – which study after study has predicted will take decades, if they arrive at all. In fact, the Hydrogen 7 and its hydrogen-fuel-cell cousins are, in many ways, simply flashy distractions produced by automakers who should be taking stronger immediate action to reduce the greenhouse-gas emissions of their cars."[43][68]

The Wall Street Journal reported in 2008 that "Top executives from General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Corp. Tuesday expressed doubts about the viability of hydrogen fuel cells for mass-market production in the near term and suggested their companies are now betting that electric cars will prove to be a better way to reduce fuel consumption and cut tailpipe emissions on a large scale."[6][69] In addition, Ballard Power Systems, a leading developer of hydrogen vehicle technology, pulled back from the Hydrogen vehicle business in late 2007. Research Capital analyst Jon Hykawy concluded that Ballard saw the industry going nowhere and said: "In my view, the hydrogen car was never alive. The problem was never could you build a fuel cell that would consume hydrogen, produce electricity, and fit in a car. The problem was always, can you make hydrogen fuel at a price point that makes any sense to anybody. And the answer to that to date has been no.".[70] In December 2009, however, Ballard announced a three-year contract for the delivery of the FCvelocity fuel cells for Daimler Benz.[71]

The Economist magazine, in September 2008, quoted Robert Zubrin, the author of Energy Victory, as saying: "Hydrogen is 'just about the worst possible vehicle fuel'".[72] The magazine noted the withdrawal of California from earlier goals: "In March [2008] the California Air Resources Board, an agency of California's state government and a bellwether for state governments across America, changed its requirement for the number of zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs) to be built and sold in California between 2012 and 2014. The revised mandate allows manufacturers to comply with the rules by building more battery-electric cars instead of fuel-cell vehicles."[72] The magazine also noted that most hydrogen is produced through steam reformation, which creates at least as much emission of carbon per mile as some of today's gasoline cars. On the other hand, if the hydrogen could be produced using renewable energy, "it would surely be easier simply to use this energy to charge the batteries of all-electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles."[72]

On May 2009 the U.S. Secretary of Energy Stephen Chu announced that since fuel cell hydrogen vehicles "will not be practical over the next 10 to 20 years", the U.S. government would "cut off funds" for development of hydrogen vehicles, although the DoE will continue to fund research related to stationary fuel cells. He cited difficulties in the development of the required infrastructure to distribute hydrogen as a justification for cutting research funds.[73] The National Hydrogen Association and other hydrogen groups criticized the decision.[74] Secretary Chu told MIT's Technology Review that he is skeptical about hydrogen's use in transportation because "the way we get hydrogen primarily is from reforming [natural] gas.... You're giving away some of the energy content of natural gas.... So that's one problem.... [For] transportation, we don't have a good storage mechanism yet.... The fuel cells aren't there yet, and the distribution infrastructure isn't there yet.... In order to get significant deployment, you need four significant technological breakthroughs.... If you need four miracles, that's unlikely: saints only need three miracles".[75] Congress overrode the administration's proposal, restoring funding for hydrogen car research in its appropriations bill for 2010.[7]

The Washington Post asked in November 2009, "But why would you want to store energy in the form of hydrogen and then use that hydrogen to produce electricity for a motor, when electrical energy is already waiting to be sucked out of sockets all over America and stored in auto batteries...?" The paper concluded that commercializing hydrogen cars is "stupendously difficult and probably pointless. That's why, for the foreseeable future, the hydrogen car will remain a tailpipe dream".[47] Digital Trends reported that a December 2009 study at UC Davis, published in the Journal of Power Sources, found that, over their lifetimes, hydrogen vehicles will emit more carbon than gasoline vehicles.[76] ..

Hydrogen vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

FF
 
Upvote 0

SithDoughnut

The Agnostic, Ignostic, Apatheistic Atheist
Jan 2, 2010
9,118
306
The Death Starbucks
✟18,474.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Why not harness energy from Sun, Wind, Tide, Geothermal energy, these technologies are still very young however they already provide 19% (mostly hydro) of the worlds energy.

We still need to actually apply these ideas on a wider scale.
 
Upvote 0

bigbadwilf

Drinking from the glass half-empty
Dec 22, 2008
790
49
Oxford, UK
✟8,706.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Why not harness energy from Sun, Wind, Tide, Geothermal energy, these technologies are still very young however they already provide 19% (mostly hydro) of the worlds energy.

Some places already do, the Falkland Islands generated about 26% of their electricity from wind power last year, and are moving towards 40% this year.
Admittedly they are a special case with full-scale South Atlantic/Antarctic winds, but it does show the principle would be more workable than some give it credit for.
 
Upvote 0

Trogdor the Burninator

Senior Veteran
Oct 19, 2004
6,037
2,574
✟231,157.00
Faith
Christian
So your money can buy you a hydrogen car? and then where are the hydrogen stations to fill up your hydrogen car?
1) A hydrogen car costs over 300'000 dollars to make right now
2) The energy (aka hydrogen gas) costs three times as normal gasoline
3) A huge infrastructure shift would need to happen for this car to be viable


1) Electric cars are heavily subsidized now.
2) Fair enough – based on current methods of production.
3) The infrastructure argument is a red herring. Sure wall sockets are everywhere, and you can charge your EV from a wall socket – if you’re happy to wait overnight. Even assuming we could get that charge time down to a couple of hours with advances in battery tech, you’re stills tuck waiting, that alone would be a deal breaker for lots of people.

Now there’s talk of fast charge stations that could recharge a battery in 10-30 minutes, but that infrastructure isn’t in place. And to make it work we’re going to need them at petrol stations, car parks, homes, businesses, parks etc. because the price of running out of power is sitting by the side of the road or in the carpark while your car recharges. Unlike gasoline where you find the nearest station and spend a few minutes filling up.

Same goes for battery swaps, with the added issue of forcing car makers to standardize battery technology (we can’t even get that for mobile phones).

We already transport gasoline and LPG to fuel stations, hydrogen would be little different (though the storage tech would change from what’s there now). Filling up would be little different to filling an LPG/CNG car, and would take the same amount of time.

EVs are going to appeal as second cars or for people who travel short distances on regular routes. Meanwhile advances in gasoline engines will make sure they remain for a while, and advances in hydrogen reclamation tech are coming along.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ACougar

U.S. Army Retired
Feb 7, 2003
16,795
1,295
Arizona
Visit site
✟37,952.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
For someone who needs a second car a couple hours a day to run around town electric cars are good, if you need independent transportation for much more than that then they don't yet make sense. Hydrogen still has a way to go, however it may someday offer another viable alternative. Every little bit helps to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels... so their still a good thing for the environment (in most cases) and our national security.


1) Electric cars are heavily subsidized now.
2) Fair enough – based on current methods of production.
3) The infrastructure argument is a red herring. Sure wall sockets are everywhere, and you can charge your EV from a wall socket – if you’re happy to wait overnight. Even assuming we could get that charge time down to a couple of hours with advances in battery tech, you’re stills tuck waiting, that alone would be a deal breaker for lots of people.

Now there’s talk of fast charge stations that could recharge a battery in 10-30 minutes, but that infrastructure isn’t in place. And to make it work we’re going to need them at petrol stations, car parks, homes, businesses, parks etc. because the price of running out of power is sitting by the side of the road or in the carpark while your car recharges. Unlike gasoline where you find the nearest station and spend a few minutes filling up.

Same goes for battery swaps, with the added issue of forcing car makers to standardize battery technology (we can’t even get that for mobile phones).

We already transport gasoline and LPG to fuel stations, hydrogen would be little different (though the storage tech would change from what’s there now). Filling up would be little different to filling an LPG/CNG car, and would take the same amount of time.

EVs are going to appeal as second cars or for people who travel short distances on regular routes. Meanwhile advances in gasoline engines will make sure they remain for a while, and advances in hydrogen reclamation tech are coming along.
 
Upvote 0