Election

[Ben johnson]

Sorry but Ephesians 1:4 does not say, "He chose us before the foundaiton of the world."

Does it?

It says, "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, ...which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."

Calvinists take this as "literal predestination to salvation". But there are several points:

1. 2Thess2:13 says "God has chosen you from the beginning THROUGH FAITH" --- if "saving-faith" is "gifted to us by God", then yes we are "predestined to salvation". But if "saivng-faith" comes from OUR HEARTS", then it is our BELIEF that receives His gift of salvation.

2. What is the "kind intention of His will"? That "only those God CHOOSES can be saved"? Not what Jn3:16 says ("everyone who believs ...may have eternal life"), not what Jn6:40 says ("everyone who sees and believes in Him may have eternal life").

3. What does "predestined to adoption as sons" mean? Either, "predestined-to-salvation", or "whosoever BELIEVES joins the predestination BY BELIEF to adoption as sons". Rm8:29 says, "Those whom He foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ" --- so the "pro-ginosko-priorly-known", are either the "predestined-elect", or "foreknown-believers" whom He purposes towards Christlikeness".

Clearly, Jesus-on-the-Cross WAS PREDESTINED. But Scripture says, "salvation is by BELIEF". Jn1:12: "As many as RECEIVED Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe on His name"." There is no "exclusivity" presented in the Gospel as to "WHO CAN BELIEVE". Jn10:9 says "if TIS-ANYONE enters through Me, he SHALL BE SAVED". Rom10:13, "whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved". Rev22:17, "let O-THELOS-WHOSOEVER-WILL take of the water of life FREELY". The idea of "Jesus-predestined, and whosoever BELEIVES receives the chosenness-from-the-beginning, but THROUGH OUR OWN FAITH" --- harmonizes all of the Scriptures perfectly.

The idea of, "God PREDESTINED you to salvation, and INSTILLED the faith to believe", does not.

There are verses that speak of the "SAVED", who "fall from salvation".

There are verses that assert "our saving-faith comes from OUR HEARTS" --- not "instilled/gifted-by'bequeathed/machinated faith, from GOD".

There are verse chargning us to "abide in Jesus and His teaching, watch yourselves against deceivers --- that you continue in salvation.

Salvation is belief that RECEIVES the gift of grace --- receives, and abides IN it.

 

[BBAS 64]

It says, "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, ...which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."

Calvinists take this as "literal predestination to salvation". But there are several points:

Good Day, Ben

It would be really nice if you would deal with the fullness of text in the context in which it was written.

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ben you said "according to the kind intention of His will...which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."" You seem to be running verses together here, where did you get this from?

What does Eph 1:4 the underlined part mean?

1. 2Thess2:13 says "God has chosen you from the beginning THROUGH FAITH" --- if "saving-faith" is "gifted to us by God", then yes we are "predestined to salvation". But if "saivng-faith" comes from OUR HEARTS", then it is our BELIEF that receives His gift of salvation.

2. What is the "kind intention of His will"? That "only those God CHOOSES can be saved"? Not what Jn3:16 says ("everyone who believs ...may have eternal life"), not what Jn6:40 says ("everyone who sees and believes in Him may have eternal life").

3. What does "predestined to adoption as sons" mean? Either, "predestined-to-salvation", or "whosoever BELIEVES joins the predestination BY BELIEF to adoption as sons". Rm8:29 says, "Those whom He foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ" --- so the "pro-ginosko-priorly-known", are either the "predestined-elect", or "foreknown-believers" whom He purposes towards Christlikeness".

Clearly, Jesus-on-the-Cross WAS PREDESTINED. But Scripture says, "salvation is by BELIEF". Jn1:12: "As many as RECEIVED Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe on His name"." There is no "exclusivity" presented in the Gospel as to "WHO CAN BELIEVE". Jn10:9 says "if TIS-ANYONE enters through Me, he SHALL BE SAVED". Rom10:13, "whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved". Rev22:17, "let O-THELOS-WHOSOEVER-WILL take of the water of life FREELY". The idea of "Jesus-predestined, and whosoever BELEIVES receives the chosenness-from-the-beginning, but THROUGH OUR OWN FAITH" --- harmonizes all of the Scriptures perfectly.

The idea of, "God PREDESTINED you to salvation, and INSTILLED the faith to believe", does not.

There are verses that speak of the "SAVED", who "fall from salvation".

There are verses that assert "our saving-faith comes from OUR HEARTS" --- not "instilled/gifted-by'bequeathed/machinated faith, from GOD".

There are verse chargning us to "abide in Jesus and His teaching, watch yourselves against deceivers --- that you continue in salvation.

Salvation is belief that RECEIVES the gift of grace --- receives, and abides IN it.

Not very germaine to the ideas expressed nor the text used in Eph 1, Many assertions with out complete scripture. Though we could make some logical extensions after Ehp 1 is understood with in it's context.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben you said "according to the kind intention of His will...which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." You seem to be running verses together here, where did you get this from?

New American Standard, Eph1:5-6

What does Eph 1:4 the underlined part mean?

Here is the problem --- is our "holy-blameless" state, determined by God? Then why does Paul say:

"He will present you before God holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT BE MOVED AWAY FROM (JESUS)!" Col1:22-23

Why does Peter say: "Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent TO BE FOUND by Him in peace, spotless and BLAMELESS; ...be on your guard that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS." 2:3:14-17

Throughout Scripture, abiding in salvation is charged to US. How do these verse not speak of "ability to fall from salvation"?

Let's throw in one from Hebrews, which I don't think anyone has answered; but it says the exact same thing, in language that I find uncontradictable:

"Take care, brethren, lest there be in any one of you an evil unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another ...so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partners in Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end. Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you seem to have come short of it. Therefore, let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will FALL through following the same example of disobedience." Heb3:12-14, 4:1 & 11

Please explain to me how that is not "sincere admonition to the SAVED, not to be deceived by sin to UNSALVATION"? How does James1:14-16 not have the same warning? How are all the warnings, laid aside?

 

[frumanchu]

New American Standard, Eph1:5-6
Here is the problem --- is our "holy-blameless" state, determined by God? Then why does Paul say:

"He will present you before God holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT BE MOVED AWAY FROM (JESUS)!" Col1:22-23

Conditional statement. You still haven't grasped this concept.

Why does Peter say: "Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent TO BE FOUND by Him in peace, spotless and BLAMELESS; ...be on your guard that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS." 2:3:14-17

Because he is warning them of their own weakness and the dangers that surround them, to motivate them to watchfulness and growth in godly living. Contrary to your theology (and in line with your actual walk and everyone else's), saved people do not lose their salvation every time they fall prey to false teachings or wander astray from the truth for a time.

Throughout Scripture, abiding in salvation is charged to US. How do these verse not speak of "ability to fall from salvation"?

Well, for starters they don't explicitly say it. You have no verses whatsoever in Scripture that state explicitly that true believers do actually lose their salvation. None. You're left to piece together phrases, advocate overly euphemistic interpretations, and point to implications that simply are not there.

Let's throw in one from Hebrews, which I don't think anyone has answered...

Oh, THAT's a RIOT!!!

...but it says the exact same thing, in language that I find uncontradictable:

The words are uncontradictable. Your interpretation of them is another matter.

"Take care, brethren, lest there be in any one of you an evil unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another ...so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partners in Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.

The author addresses his readers in terms of their confession of faith (v. 1) as “brethren,” yet also recognizes that some within the Christian fellowship may have an “evil heart of unbelief” (cf. 12:15–17). Christ saves completely those who come to God through Him (7:25), but Christians must guard their own and each other’s endurance by encouraging one another (10:24, 25), as the author does throughout this letter (13:22). (NGSB)

Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you seem to have come short of it.Therefore, let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will FALL through following the same example of disobedience."

The letter to the Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians facing persectution and considering returning to the Old Covenant. Just as there were those among the covenant people in Israel who were unbelievers and manifest themselves as such by their unbelief, so are there those among the original audience of the epistle who were members merely by confession. The author encourages them as a group to persevere. That only true believers will in fact persevere does not negate or invalidate the encouragement (despite your arguments to the contrary).

How does James1:14-16 not have the same warning?

Because you are forcing your theology upon it to squeeze a meaning out of it that isn't there. The point of the passage in its context is to show that God is not the author of any man's sins. He tests, but He never tempts. The guilt and responsibility for one's sins lies squarely on their shoulders.

Matthew Henry wrote an excellent commentary on "the method of sin in its proceeding" in verses 14 and 15:

"First it draws away, then entices. As holiness consists of two parts-forsaking that which is evil and cleaving to that which is good, so these two things, reversed, are the two parts of sin. The heart is carried from that which is good, and enticed to cleave to that which is evil. It is first by corrupt inclinations, or by lusting after and coveting some sensual or worldly thing, estranged from the life of God, and then by degrees fixed in a course of sin. 2. We may observe hence the power and policy of sin. The word here rendered drawn away signifies a being forcibly haled or compelled. The word translated enticed signifies being wheedled and beguiled by allurements and deceitful representations of things, exelkomenos kai deleazomenos. There is a great deal of violence done to conscience and to the mind by the power of corruption: and there is a great deal of cunning and deceit and flattery in sin to gain us to its interests. The force and power of sin could never prevail, were it not for its cunning and guile. Sinners who perish are wheedled and flattered to their own destruction. And this will justify God for ever in their damnation, that they destroyed themselves. Their sin lies at their own door, and therefore their blood will lie upon their own heads. 3. The success of corruption in the heart (v. 15): Then, when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; that is, sin being allowed to excite desires in us, it will son ripen those desires into consent, and then it is said to have conceived. The sin truly exists, though it be but in embryo. And, when it has grown it its full size in the mind, it is then brought forth in actual execution. Stop the beginnings of sin therefore, or else all the evils it produces must be wholly charged upon us. 4. The final issue of sin, and how it ends: Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. After sin is brought forth in actual commissions, the finishing of it (as Dr. Manton observes) is its being strengthened by frequent acts and settled into a habit. And, when the iniquities of men are thus filled up, death is brought forth. There is a death upon the soul, and death comes upon the body. And, besides death spiritual and temporal, the wages of sin is eternal death too. Let sin therefore be repented of and forsaken, before it be finished."

The point of the passage is to show that it cannot be said in the midst of trials that one's stumblings or sin can be attributed to anyone but themselves. What it does NOT say is anything about genuine believers losing their salvation.

How are all the warnings, laid aside?

They aren't "laid aside." They're understood properly, in their context.

 

[kel32]

The idea of "Jesus-predestined, and whosoever BELEIVES receives the chosenness-from-the-beginning, but THROUGH OUR OWN FAITH" --- harmonizes all of the Scriptures perfectly.

The idea of, "God PREDESTINED you to salvation, and INSTILLED the faith to believe", does not.

~peace~

 

[Colossians]

Arminians think that we cooperated with our own resurrection. (Sort of like nuts, bolts, and metal panels cooperating to be made into a car.)

(They probably also think that when Jesus told Lazarus to "come forth!", Lazarus could have said "no!")

 

[Colossians]

What the Arminian gets hung up on, is time sequence. He doesn't like the Calvinist saying that regeneration precedes faith: he reasons that scripture tells us that it is primarily by faith that we are saved.



What he fails to understand is the issue of just who it is that has faith. The Arminian thinks that it is the old man who initially has faith in Christ, and because of such, becomes the new man.

This presents a problem: if the old man began to have faith in Christ, then why was he called the old man?
If, on the other hand, it is only the new man who has faith in Christ, then why is the Arminian not a Calvinist?

The root error of the Arminian?: the understanding of what faith is.
He thinks that faith is an a-directional 'substance' lying dormant in a human being, able to be invoked by the will.

Faith is not a dormant substance, for the scripture tells us that "not all men have faith". Faith is simply a term for "trusting God". In fact, in Shakespearean English, the word "trust" was used for "belief".

The faith that a Christian has in God, is actually the faith of the New Man, Christ Jesus within, in the Father. Such is the result of our having been crucified, and then resurrected. It is the resurrected man (of necessity having no part of the old man) who has faith in God.
The Arminian stumbles over the fact that the human being concerned looks to be the same identity (on the outside) both pre and post conversion. The Arminian therefore reasons that he who has faith in God, is the same person as he who didn't have faith in God.
The scripture tells us otherwise: "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature (a creature who has never existed before") 2Cor 5:17.

 

[Ben johnson]

What the Arminian gets hung up on, is time sequence. He doesn't like the Calvinist saying that regeneration precedes faith: he reasons that scripture tells us that it is primarily by faith that we are saved.

That really is the biggest difference between us, "regeneration-belief" or "belief-regeneration". It's not that "Arminianists" and "Responsible Grace proponents" don't like that saying, but that it doesn't exist in Scripture. Show me where "regeneration occurs before belief". And meanwhile, I'll show you Titus 3:5-6, which says: "through Jesus OUR Savior (that means belief) is poured onto US the Holy Spirit --- through which we were washed with regeneration and renewing".

And you will find zero verses that say, "regeneration before belief".

Well, for starters they don't explicitly say it. You have no verses whatsoever in Scripture that state explicitly that true believers do actually lose their salvation. None. You're left to piece together phrases, advocate overly euphemistic interpretations, and point to implications that simply are not there.

"Brethren, if any of YOU wander from the truth --- soul-death and uncovered sins..." James5:19-20

Because you are forcing your theology upon it to squeeze a meaning out of it that isn't there. The point of the passage in its context is to show that God is not the author of any man's sins. He tests, but He never tempts. The guilt and responsibility for one's sins lies squarely on their shoulders.

"Each is tempted when he is enticed and carried away by his own lust. Then lust conceived births sin, and sin brings DEATH. Do not be deceived beloved brethren." "Death" is "thanatos", same as in 5:20.

Let's throw in one from Hebrews, which I don't think anyone has answered...

Oh, THAT's a RIOT!!!

"Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of YOU an evil unbelieving heart in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another, ...lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partners in Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end. Therefore let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience." Heb3:12-14, 4:1, 4:11

That only true believers will in fact persevere does not negate or invalidate the encouragement (despite your arguments to the contrary).

He says brethren "any one of you" three times; he says "anyone" once, but in context it's US-ANYONE".

Explain to me how he meant "true believers WILL persevere", how this passage isn't a warning TO persevere?

 

[frumanchu]

"Brethren, if any of YOU wander from the truth --- soul-death and uncovered sins..." James5:19-20

It says "if any AMONG you" Ben...even in your NASB. You still have no case to state that this verse shows true believers losing their salvation. Just linguistic slight of hand.

"Each is tempted when he is enticed and carried away by his own lust. Then lust conceived births sin, and sin brings DEATH. Do not be deceived beloved brethren." "Death" is "thanatos", same as in 5:20.

He said "Do not be deceived beloved bretheran" in reference to the notion that God is responsible for their sin.

"Let no one say when he is tempted" that it is God's fault. Do not be deceived into thinking this. Every good and perfect things comes from Him.

Linguistic gymnastics, Ben. It DOES NOT SAY what you want it to.

He says brethren "any one of you" three times; he says "anyone" once, but in context it's US-ANYONE".

Explain to me how he meant "true believers WILL persevere", how this passage isn't a warning TO persevere?

I just told you that he addressed them by their confession. "Any one of you" refers to his audience...which is a mixture of those who merely confess faith and those who actually possess it.

Sorry, Ben. We HAVE been over this ground before. Bright colors and paraphrases presented as quotations can't cover the fact that you're making Scripture say something it doesn't.

 

[BWV 1080]

<Yawn>



All together now:



Jesus loves me, this I think,
If I'm wrong to Hell I'll sink,
Little ones to Him belong.
To save or damn, for He is strong.

Yes, He may love me,
And has elected,
Or else rejected,
Me 'ere the world began



Followed by:



Arminian "grace!" How strange the sound,
Salvation hinged on me.
I once was lost then turned around,
Was blind then chose to see.

What "grace" is it that calls for choice,
Made from some good within?
That part that wills to heed God's voice,
Proved stronger than my sin.

Thru many ardent gospel pleas,
I sat with heart of stone.
But then some hidden good in me,
Propelled me toward my home.

When we've been there ten thousand years,
Because of what we've done,
We've no less days to sing our praise,
Than when we first begun.





Anyone care to interact with Ludwig Ott?

1) GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)

[ De fide = "of faith" - dogmas are absolutely binding on all Catholics]
​

This doctrine is proposed by the Ordinary and General Teaching of the Church as a truth of Revelation. The doctrinal definitions of the Council of Trent presuppose it . . . The reality of Predestination is clearly attested to in Rom 8:29 et seq: . . . cf. Mt 25:34, Jn 10:27 et seq., Acts 13:48, Eph 1:4 et seq. . . . Predestination is a part of the Eternal Divine Plan of Providence.

2) BASIS OF PREDESTINATION

a) The Problem

The main difficulty . . . lies in the question whether God's eternal resolve of Predestination has been taken with or without consideration of the merits of the man (postor ante praevisa merita).

Only incomplete Predestination to grace is independent of every merit (ante praevisa merita), as the first grace cannot be merited. In the same way, complete Predestination to grace and glory conjointly is independent of every merit, as the first grace cannot be merited, and the consequent graces, as well as the merits acquired with these graces and their reward, depend like the links of a chain, on the first grace . . .

b) Attempts at Solution

The Thomists, the Augustinians, the majority of the Scotists and also individual older Molinists (Suarez, St. Bellarmine) teach an absolute Predestination (ad gloriam tantum), therefore ante praevisa merita. According to them, God freely resolves from all Eternity, without consideration of the merits of man's grace, to call certain men to beatification and therefore to bestow on them graces which will infallibly secure the execution of the Divine Decree (ordo intentionis). In time God first gives to the predestined effective graces and then eternal bliss as a reward for the merits which flow from their free cooperation with grace (ordo executionis). The ordo intentionis and the ordo executionis are in inverse relation to each other (glory-grace; grace-glory).

Most of the Molinists, and also St. Francis de Sales (+1622), teach a conditioned Predestination (ad gloriam tantum), that is, postand propter praevisa merita. According to them, God by His scientia media, sees beforehand how men would freely react to various orders of grace. In the light of this knowledge He chooses, according to His free pleasure a fixed and definite order of grace. Now by His scientia visionis, He knows infallibly in advance what use the individual man will make of the grace bestowed on him. He elects for eternal bliss those who by virtue of their foreseen merits perseveringly cooperate with grace, while He determines for eternal punishment of hell, those who, on account of their foreseen demerits, deny their cooperation. The ordo intentionis and the ordo executionis coincide (grace-glory; grace-glory).

Both attempts at explanation are ecclesiastically permissible. The scriptural proofs are not decisive for either side. The Thomists quote above all passages from the Letter to the Romans, in which the Divine factor in salvation is brought strongly to the foreground (Rom 8:29; 9:11-13, 9:20 et seq.) . . . The Molinists invoke the passages which attest the universality of the Divine desire for salvation, especially 1 Tim 2:4, as well as the sentence to be pronounced by the Judge of the World (Mt 25:34-36), in which the works of mercy are given as ground for the acceptance into the Heavenly Kingdom. But that these are also the basis for the 'preparation' for the Kingdom, that is, for the eternal resolve of Predestination, cannot be definitely proved from them . . .

 

[BBAS 64]

<Yawn>



All together now:



Jesus loves me, this I think,
If I'm wrong to Hell I'll sink,
Little ones to Him belong.
To save or damn, for He is strong.

Yes, He may love me,
And has elected,
Or else rejected,
Me 'ere the world began



Followed by:



Arminian "grace!" How strange the sound,
Salvation hinged on me.
I once was lost then turned around,
Was blind then chose to see.

What "grace" is it that calls for choice,
Made from some good within?
That part that wills to heed God's voice,
Proved stronger than my sin.

Thru many ardent gospel pleas,
I sat with heart of stone.
But then some hidden good in me,
Propelled me toward my home.

When we've been there ten thousand years,
Because of what we've done,
We've no less days to sing our praise,
Than when we first begun.





Anyone care to interact with Ludwig Ott?

1) GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)

[ De fide = "of faith" - dogmas are absolutely binding on all Catholics]​

This doctrine is proposed by the Ordinary and General Teaching of the Church as a truth of Revelation. The doctrinal definitions of the Council of Trent presuppose it . . . The reality of Predestination is clearly attested to in Rom 8:29 et seq: . . . cf. Mt 25:34, Jn 10:27 et seq., Acts 13:48, Eph 1:4 et seq. . . . Predestination is a part of the Eternal Divine Plan of Providence.

2) BASIS OF PREDESTINATION

a) The Problem

The main difficulty . . . lies in the question whether God's eternal resolve of Predestination has been taken with or without consideration of the merits of the man (postor ante praevisa merita).

Only incomplete Predestination to grace is independent of every merit (ante praevisa merita), as the first grace cannot be merited. In the same way, complete Predestination to grace and glory conjointly is independent of every merit, as the first grace cannot be merited, and the consequent graces, as well as the merits acquired with these graces and their reward, depend like the links of a chain, on the first grace . . .

b) Attempts at Solution

The Thomists, the Augustinians, the majority of the Scotists and also individual older Molinists (Suarez, St. Bellarmine) teach an absolute Predestination (ad gloriam tantum), therefore ante praevisa merita. According to them, God freely resolves from all Eternity, without consideration of the merits of man's grace, to call certain men to beatification and therefore to bestow on them graces which will infallibly secure the execution of the Divine Decree (ordo intentionis). In time God first gives to the predestined effective graces and then eternal bliss as a reward for the merits which flow from their free cooperation with grace (ordo executionis). The ordo intentionis and the ordo executionis are in inverse relation to each other (glory-grace; grace-glory).

Most of the Molinists, and also St. Francis de Sales (+1622), teach a conditioned Predestination (ad gloriam tantum), that is, postand propter praevisa merita. According to them, God by His scientia media, sees beforehand how men would freely react to various orders of grace. In the light of this knowledge He chooses, according to His free pleasure a fixed and definite order of grace. Now by His scientia visionis, He knows infallibly in advance what use the individual man will make of the grace bestowed on him. He elects for eternal bliss those who by virtue of their foreseen merits perseveringly cooperate with grace, while He determines for eternal punishment of hell, those who, on account of their foreseen demerits, deny their cooperation. The ordo intentionis and the ordo executionis coincide (grace-glory; grace-glory).

Both attempts at explanation are ecclesiastically permissible. The scriptural proofs are not decisive for either side. The Thomists quote above all passages from the Letter to the Romans, in which the Divine factor in salvation is brought strongly to the foreground (Rom 8:29; 9:11-13, 9:20 et seq.) . . . The Molinists invoke the passages which attest the universality of the Divine desire for salvation, especially 1 Tim 2:4, as well as the sentence to be pronounced by the Judge of the World (Mt 25:34-36), in which the works of mercy are given as ground for the acceptance into the Heavenly Kingdom. But that these are also the basis for the 'preparation' for the Kingdom, that is, for the eternal resolve of Predestination, cannot be definitely proved from them . . .

Good Day, BVW

ROTFLMHO

I have seen this before on another board,... I would like to add the chorus..

SOLA' ME..O' sing it loud sing it clear so all can hear they need to know that they can choose SOLA' ME..O, SOLA .. YOU..O, TOO...O'

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Ben johnson]

He says brethren "any one of you" three times; he says "anyone" once, but in context it's US-ANYONE".

Explain to me how he meant "true believers WILL persevere", how this passage isn't a warning TO persevere?

I just told you that he addressed them by their confession. "Any one of you" refers to his audience...which is a mixture of those who merely confess faith and those who actually possess it.

Sorry, Ben. We HAVE been over this ground before. Bright colors and paraphrases presented as quotations can't cover the fact that you're making Scripture say something it doesn't.

"Brethren any of YOU strays from the truth" --- becomes, "brethren, any lurking among you who were never really IN the truth but they stray from truth in which they've never BEEN"...

"This command I entrust to you, Timothy my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these Hymenaeus and Alexander..." 1Tim1:18-20

"If we died with Him we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will deny us; if we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself. Remind them of these things and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers, Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth. But avoid worldly chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some." 2Tim2:11-18

This becomes "Hymenaeus and Alexander and Philetus have gone astray from truth they never HAD, they suffered shipwreck from their faith that they never HAD. They upset the faith of some who ALSO NEVER HAD FAITH (just other lurkers who only PROFESS faith but don't really POSSESS it so they don't REALLY "wander" or "go astray" or "suffer shipwreck" or "upset faith".)

Linguistic gymnastics, Ben.

Both attempts at explanation are ecclesiastically permissible. The scriptural proofs are not decisive for either side. The Thomists quote above all passages from the Letter to the Romans, in which the Divine factor in salvation is brought strongly to the foreground (Rom 8:29; 9:11-13, 9:20 et seq.) . . . The Molinists invoke the passages which attest the universality of the Divine desire for salvation, especially 1 Tim 2:4, as well as the sentence to be pronounced by the Judge of the World (Mt 25:34-36), in which the works of mercy are given as ground for the acceptance into the Heavenly Kingdom. But that these are also the basis for the 'preparation' for the Kingdom, that is, for the eternal resolve of Predestination, cannot be definitely proved from them . . .

Yet this denies the Scriptural assertion that "the saved can become unsaved". We have those in 2Pet2:20-22, who are "apopheugo-escaped defilements through the epignosis-saved-knowldge of the Lord and Savior Jesus", but they are "again entangled in defilements and overcome". They had "epiginosko-known the of righteousness and EPISTREPHO-EK-TURNED-AWAY-FROM it." So too those in Heb10:26-29 (who WERE SANCTIFIED by His blood), the one in 2Pet1:5-11 (vs9 says "PURIFIED from former sins but FORGOT"), those in Heb6:4-6 (they were PARTNERS of the Spirit and TASTED the powers). The warnings are against "deceivers trying to deceive you away from abiding in Jesus" (1Jn2:26-29, 2Jn1:7-9), for us to "be diligent and DON'T FOLLOW DISOBEDIENCE lest we FALL but imitate those who through faith and paitence INHERIT the PROMISES" (Heb4:11, 6:11-12).

to call certain men to beatification and therefore to bestow on them graces which will infallibly secure the execution of the Divine Decree

I'm afraid there is no such concept in Scripture. Paul himself laments, "I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." 1Cor9:27.

The Galatians "began in the Spirit", they "WERE running well" --- but in seeking to return to LAW rather than GRACE, they are "fallen from grace and severed from Christ" (Gal3:1-3, 5:1-7).

Nowhere in Scripture is "God infallibly executing the divine decree of our salvation" --- mostly, because nowhere is our actual salvation, decreed by God. The idea that we do not choose TO believe, TO receive Jesus' graceful salvation, is not tenable in Scripture...

Atonement is unlimited. All who BELIEVE, are SAVED. Rom3:22, 10:10, Acts 16:30-31, Jn1:12, Jn3:16-18, Mk16:16, Heb10:39.

Thinking that "it is either PREDESTINATION or MERITORIOUS WORKS, denies the third choice --- Scripture says "salvation is a gift of grace, accomplished by Jesus in sufficiency and completeness on the Cross; offered to all who believe, who RECEIVE the gift --- who are saved by their own faith (1Tim4:16, 1Pet1:9), by receiving Jesus and the Spirit who INDWELL and work salvation IN us. Faith is ours (Jn1:12), which makes us "born anew, children of God" --- the BEGOTTENNESS that we RECEIVED is not of us but all of God" (Jn1:13).

How do I convince my brothers here to lay aside charges of "WORKS-SALVATOIN", and recognize that "our own faith RECEIVES His work of salvation IN us"? THIS is the theme of Scripture, that harmonizes all of the real warnings, all of the accounts of those FALLEN from salvation, all of the admonitions to PERSEVERE IN salvation.

 

[frumanchu]

"Brethren any of YOU strays from the truth" --- becomes, "brethren, any lurking among you who were never really IN the truth but they stray from truth in which they've never BEEN"...

That's quite simply false, Ben. I've explained that to you before.

This becomes "Hymenaeus and Alexander and Philetus have gone astray from truth they never HAD, they suffered shipwreck from their faith that they never HAD. They upset the faith of some who ALSO NEVER HAD FAITH (just other lurkers who only PROFESS faith but don't really POSSESS it so they don't REALLY "wander" or "go astray" or "suffer shipwreck" or "upset faith".)

No, it only becomes that because you can't get past your euphemisms and thus you're presenting as a position something I haven't put forth. I've explained this to you before, Ben.

Yet this denies the Scriptural assertion that "the saved can become unsaved".

No, it denies YOUR assertion.

We have those in 2Pet2:20-22, who are "apopheugo-escaped defilements through the epignosis-saved-knowldge of the Lord and Savior Jesus", but they are "again entangled in defilements and overcome". They had "epiginosko-known the of righteousness and EPISTREPHO-EK-TURNED-AWAY-FROM it." So too those in Heb10:26-29 (who WERE SANCTIFIED by His blood), the one in 2Pet1:5-11 (vs9 says "PURIFIED from former sins but FORGOT"), those in Heb6:4-6 (they were PARTNERS of the Spirit and TASTED the powers). The warnings are against "deceivers trying to deceive you away from abiding in Jesus" (1Jn2:26-29, 2Jn1:7-9), for us to "be diligent and DON'T FOLLOW DISOBEDIENCE lest we FALL but imitate those who through faith and paitence INHERIT the PROMISES" (Heb4:11, 6:11-12).

Not a single verse here says "true believers falling from salvation." You simply force your euphemistic interpretation upon them to support you false doctrine.

How do I convince my brothers here to lay aside charges of "WORKS-SALVATOIN", and recognize that "our own faith RECEIVES His work of salvation IN us"?

You can't so long as we heed the warnings you keep citing as your "proof."

THIS is the theme of Scripture, that harmonizes all of the real warnings, all of the accounts of those FALLEN from salvation, all of the admonitions to PERSEVERE IN salvation.

You can't name one person...not a single person in Scripture...who is explicitly said to have lost a salvation they formerly had. None.

There is no harmony with Scripture in your doctrine, Ben. It is sharp dissonance.

 

[Ben johnson]

That's quite simply false, Ben. I've explained that to you before.

Then how do you understand them? Please state your understanding precisely, so there can be no future accusations of "misrepresentation".

Not a single verse here says "true believers falling from salvation." You simply force your euphemistic interpretation upon them to support you false doctrine.

The letter to Galatia says "they WERE running well, they WERE begun in the Spirit"; it then says "they are fallen from grace and severed from Christ". Yet you say "no verses says 'fallen from salvation". If I quote yo as saying "they were never saved", or I quote you as saying "they didn't REALLY fall", you say "no --- you misrepresent what I believe!" So let's leave behind the charges of "misrepresentation" and "false quotes" --- and tell me how you see these verses.

You can't name one person...not a single person in Scripture...who is explicitly said to have lost a salvation they formerly had. None.

I gave you Hymenaeus and Alexander and Phletus; and said, "you assert they were shipwrecked from faith they never had, they strayed from truth they never had". You only responded: No, it only becomes that because you can't get past your euphemisms and thus you're presenting as a position something I haven't put forth. I've explained this to you before, Ben.

So --- if I "misrepresent you" by saying "they strayed from faith and truth that they NEVER HAD", then tell me how you really understand these verses.

 

[frumanchu]

Then how do you understand them? Please state your understanding precisely, so there can be no future accusations of "misrepresentation".

If this weekend affords me the time, I shall do just that. But I will merely be repeating myself and am willing to bet that it will continue to go ignored.

So --- if I "misrepresent you" by saying "they strayed from faith and truth that they NEVER HAD", then tell me how you really understand these verses.

You seem to think that the only faith a person can possibly have is true faith, or that "depart from the faith" is the same as "depart from their faith." The word faith is used in different manners to mean different things, but you treat them as all the exact same thing...true salvific faith.

Not only do you have to ignore all the verses which speak of GOD PRESERVING US, but you have to ignore the fact that nowhere is it explicitly stated that Hymenaeus, Alexander, etc. were truly saved to begin with, nor does it say that they persevered in their error until death. Your only means is to argue from silence.

My position is not that they "strayed from faith and truth that they NEVER HAD." My position on them in particular is that if they "made shipwreck of their faith" they have shown that their faith was never a genuine faith, merely a superficial faith. But again, that is with the understanding that making "shipwreck" of your faith is equivalent to totally abandoning it. It is quite possible too that they suffered grievous injury to their sanctification, enough so that Paul took disciplinary action in withholding from them the means of grace within the Church and delivering them unto Satan that they might be saved (ie-motivated to repentance).

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

It says, "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, ...which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."

This happens at the Rapture! not right know because we do sin 1 john 1:8-10

Calvinists take this as "literal predestination to salvation". But there are several points:

1. 2Thess2:13 says "God has chosen you from the beginning THROUGH FAITH" --- if "saving-faith" is "gifted to us by God", then yes we are "predestined to salvation". But if "saivng-faith" comes from OUR HEARTS", then it is our BELIEF that receives His gift of salvation.

ever read act 4:9-12 God gives ears so that we can understand God's word

2. What is the "kind intention of His will"? That "only those God CHOOSES can be saved"? Not what Jn3:16 says ("everyone who believs ...may have eternal life"), not what Jn6:40 says ("everyone who sees and believes in Him may have eternal life").

Matt 11:23 God knows HOW to save people ... or condemn them
quit being man centered ....
god is teach spirit beings also not just man

3. What does "predestined to adoption as sons" mean? Either, "predestined-to-salvation", or "whosoever BELIEVES joins the predestination BY BELIEF to adoption as sons". Rm8:29 says, "Those whom He foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ" --- so the "pro-ginosko-priorly-known", are either the "predestined-elect", or "foreknown-believers" whom He purposes towards Christlikeness".

Clearly, Jesus-on-the-Cross WAS PREDESTINED. But Scripture says, "salvation is by BELIEF". Jn1:12: "As many as RECEIVED Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe on His name"." There is no "exclusivity" presented in the Gospel as to "WHO CAN BELIEVE". Jn10:9 says "if TIS-ANYONE enters through Me, he SHALL BE SAVED". Rom10:13, "whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved". Rev22:17, "let O-THELOS-WHOSOEVER-WILL take of the water of life FREELY". The idea of "Jesus-predestined, and whosoever BELEIVES receives the chosenness-from-the-beginning, but THROUGH OUR OWN FAITH" --- harmonizes all of the Scriptures perfectly.

The idea of, "God PREDESTINED you to salvation, and INSTILLED the faith to believe", does not.

what ever, ben

How does one hear the word romans 10:17 if they do not recieve ears to hear? act 4:9-12

There are verses that speak of the "SAVED", who "fall from salvation".

There are verses that assert "our saving-faith comes from OUR HEARTS" --- not "instilled/gifted-by'bequeathed/machinated faith, from GOD".

There are verse chargning us to "abide in Jesus and His teaching, watch yourselves against deceivers --- that you continue in salvation.

Salvation is belief that RECEIVES the gift of grace --- receives, and abides IN it.

Once again Ben

there are 3 different types of salavtion

intial[past] salvation
present tense salvation
future salvation