Election fraud (attempt) seen in action

[apogee]

Given the agenda of Fox News, I suspect is has not been chutzpah, but simply him being the man best qualified (especially in character) for a Fox "pundit".

I'm thinking that perhaps his main qualification might be his Australian accent, and the subsequent illusion that his apparent views are therefor extrinsic.

 

[Albion]

Weeks ago, I posted that, since only one person (Trump) knows how there could be fraud in the election, Trump will be the only one who may commit fraud.

Now we see how this fraud should be done:

And so the cover-up for the fraud begins.

Much like claiming that Antifa's months of rioting is actually the doing of imaginary "Right wing" groups.

Or that the President didn't act soon enough to address the threat of Covid, when the fact is that he was condemned as a racist for stopping tens of thousands of people from flying into the USA from countries where the virus was raging.

Still, the claim that Trump is engaged in election fraud because he's the victim of it is genuinely funny. Or would be...if this were not such an important matter.

 

[mindlight]

I'm not sure. Trump has shifted the republicans to the right. more than 40% for a person that has no scruples to call Nazis as good fellows, and tells lies over lies about centrist being leftists (and even communists), lied about the economy, climate change and other themes, 40% for such a person shows he has succeeded to influence the minds of many people and so deeply influenced the general opinion. Comparable (not in size of effect, but in principle) to Bush who convinced many US people that there was a connection between Saddam Hussein and the "9-11"-event.

An interesting feature of the vote this time is the growth in support for Trump from Black men and Hispanics. He did actually do a fair amount of good for these people. He did play to extreme right wing groups a little. The German media is obviously a little sensitive about the right wing but they forget that the Nazis were defeated by people, just as racist, and with empires of coloured people under their rule. Sometimes it takes one to break one. But unlike the Nazis he has never based his actions on race, there is no consistency in his racial policy because actually he is primarily self serving and does what works for the THE TRUMP.

Much of Trump's agenda will survive him, and the odds are not low that a person with less narcissism but more fanaticism for an ideology may win the 2024 election. Somewhat like Trump, but a bit more like Hitler.

Think you underestimate the religious element of the Republican party. They are not that shallow. The formula of God, guns and greed does not work for Germans but remains potent in the USA. That does not make them Nazis, it makes them raw, also think their ideas about God are often distorted. God loves poor people for instance.

Let's pray the development will be otherwise. Polarization has started well before Trump, you can't expect it will vanish in just two or three years.

Polarisation and the two tribes go to war mentality does not do America any good. Sometimes there is a need for bypartisan actions to get things done. I hope to see a restoration of that. Trump has no honour and is completely self serving. which is one reason the American people have fired him from his job. The American party system needs to find a way through this and back to an America first attitude towards issues that cross parties

What Trump will now do with his last 2 months of power is what terrifies me.

 

[Albion]

Sometimes there is a need for bypartisan actions to get things done. I hope to see a restoration of that.

That is the last thing that the Biden group are interested in. I noticed that Joe did incorporate that pledge into some of his campaign commercials, but that was just for appearance's sake. Ronald Reagan, George HW Bush, and George W Bush all made serious attempts at cooperation with the other party...and had their heads handed back to them in response. So don't expect something different this time, especially not after four years of non-stop and savage vilification of the President by them.

What Trump will now do with his last 2 months of power is what terrifies me.

Hey, if he loses, you can shelve that act. It won't be needed anymore.

 

[mindlight]

And so the cover-up for the fraud begins.

Do you mean Trumps fraudulent attempt to stop legitimate ballots from being counted in the East of America while insisting they be counted in the West.

Much like claiming that Antifa's months of rioting is actually the doing of imaginary "Right wing" groups.

Antifa & BLM can take responsibility for their own sins. Biden distanced himself from them to win this election

Or that the President didn't act soon enough to address the threat of Covid, when the fact is that he was condemned as a racist for stopping tens of thousands of people from flying into the USA from countries where the virus was raging.

He was slow, you are debating Germans here, there is no comparison with Merkel!! One of Trumps big mistakes was allowing all those US students to fly back from Europe to American (safe haven), without any quarantine. They subsequently spread the disease to thousands of Americans

Still, the claim that Trump is engaged in election fraud because he's the victim of it is genuinely funny. Or would be...if this were not such an important matter.

What fraud? The courts will decide or simply throw these preposterous claims out.

 

[mindlight]

That is the last thing that the Biden group are interested in. I noticed that Joe did incorporate that pledge into some of his campaign commercials, but that was just for appearance's sake. Ronald Reagan, George HW Bush, and George W Bush all made serious attempts at cooperation with the other party...and had their heads handed back to them in response. So don't expect something different this time, especially not after four years of non-stop and savage vilification of the President by them.

They have a Republican senate which means they cannot do any real damage. At the same time there is an opportunity for bypartisan cooperation now

Hey, if he loses, you can shelve that act. It won't be needed anymore.

He already has lost, it is just a matter of time before that is official, he just does not accept it yet. Trump is entirely self serving and he reacts to anything which he perceives as a slight against himself. Defeat and being fired by the American people is as big as it gets. A standard narcissists reaction to such trauma is to strike out and put down those whom he thinks are responsible.

 

[Albion]

They have a Republican senate which means they cannot do any real damage.

Well, we're not sure of that either. When a phony ballot is counted, it's usually a straight party ballot, so that means that the Republican Senators in NC, GA, AK, and maybe a few others are still not safe, although they were thought to be so, on election night.

 

[mindlight]

Well, we're not sure of that either. When a phony ballot is counted, it's usually a straight party ballot, so that means that the Republican Senators in NC, GA, AK, and maybe a few others are still not safe, although they were thought to be so, on election night.

I do not believe these ballots are phony. The test will be the courts where this claim is made and then thrown out. But look at Maine who elected Biden and a Republican senator for example. People voted against Trump but remained true to their senators.

 

[Albion]

I do not believe these ballots are phony.

That's your choice, I guess.

The test will be the courts where this claim is made and then thrown out. But look at Maine who elected Biden and a Republican senator for example. People voted against Trump but remained true to their senators.

Yes, but what's your point?

 

[mindlight]

That's your choice, I guess.


Yes, but what's your point?

Your choice, on your ballot separated senate and presidential vote. Why do you assume all who voted against Trump also opposed Republican senator?

 

[Albion]

Your choice, on your ballot separated senate and presidential vote. Why do you assume all who voted against Trump also opposed Republican senator?

As I said, phony ballots usually are straight partyline ballots. That requires the voter to make only a single mark, not to take the time to vote on each of perhaps a hundred different candidates down the line, judges, referendum issues, and so on.

If and when this is the case, the vote for president also automatically casts a vote for Senator and every other candidate of that party.

You said in response to look at Maine where Senator Collins apparently won but Biden carried the state (most of it, to be correct. Trump won one congressional district and its electoral voter). But this doesn't disprove my point.

Most of these Senatorial races are very close, so only a few thousand votes determine the winner. It could be that Sen. Collins would have won by a bigger margin if everything was on the up and up. Or it may be that Maine isn't a state that was involved in vote fraud like others were.

 

[mindlight]

As I said, phony ballots usually are straight partyline ballots. That requires the voter to make only a single mark, not to take the time to vote on each of perhaps a hundred different candidates down the line, judges, referendum issues, and so on.

If and when this is the case, the vote for president also automatically casts a vote for Senator and every other candidate of that party.

You said in response to look at Maine where Senator Collins apparently won but Biden carried the state (most of it, to be correct. Trump won one congressional district and its electoral voter). But this doesn't disprove my point.

Most of these Senatorial races are very close, so only a few thousand votes determine the winner. It could be that Sen. Collins would have won by a bigger margin if everything was on the up and up. Or it may be that Maine isn't a state that was involved in vote fraud like others were.

Or there is no voter fraud. Look at the margins for the senators and the president in the outstanding Eastern states. The senators still have healthy majorities but it is clear that the presidents margin is disappearing fast

 

[Albion]

Or there is no voter fraud.

Well, certainly. If there were no voter fraud, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But you wanted to know why I wrote what I did about how such fraud works and why it involves more than just the votes for President.

 

[mindlight]

Well, certainly. If there were no voter fraud, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But you wanted to know why I wrote what I did about how such fraud works and why it involves more than just the votes for President.

It looks like the Republicans might lose one senator in Georgia, if I have understood the system properly, quite decisively, but keep the other. Alaska is a shoe in. North Carolina is the worry but it seems probable the Republicans will have a narrow victory there. So that would give the Republicans a 51 - 49 majority in senate. So not sure Republicans should really be that worried right now about senate. The worst case is a hung senate.

 

[Albion]

It looks like the Republicans might lose one senator in Georgia, if I have understood the system properly, quite decisively, but keep the other.

Would the losing one be the one to fill the unexpired term?

Alaska is a shoe in.

Hmm. I had heard otherwise.

North Carolina is the worry but it seems probable the Republicans will have a narrow victory there.

Probably, but they have a week to work on it!

So that would give the Republicans a 51 - 49 majority in senate. So not sure Republicans should really be that worried right now about senate. The worst case is a hung senate.

There's no hung Senate. The VP will cast the tie-breaking votes.

 

[Helmut-WK]

And so the cover-up for the fraud begins.

Explain the fraud, please.

• There is no evidence at all of a fraud. There is an indication of an incident which may mean that 53 (nut 53,000, but 53!) ballot may have been classified wrong (but even if it were 53,000 this is insignificant, since, as the supreme courts have made clear, both sets of ballots are legal votes and should be counted).
• In almost one sentence trumps makes clear he wants all ballots been count in Arizona (since this may break the lead of Biden ion that state), but he wants to stop counting in Pennsylvania (lest counting all votes may break his lead there).

Som, where is the fraud?

Much like claiming that Antifa's months of rioting is actually the doing of imaginary "Right wing" groups.

I recently read the claim that some rioting done by right wing groups was actually done by leftists ...

There was violence from extremists on both sides. Instead of trying to sort out who did what it would be a great idea to look after the roots of the hatred, i.e. police brutality and racism. And ideology, like radical Marxism and White supremacy.

Or that the President didn't act soon enough to address the threat of Covid, when the fact is that he was condemned as a racist for stopping tens of thousands of people from flying into the USA from countries where the virus was raging.

As you can see, just closing the border did not much help. Research has shown the virus has probably arrived in Italy when the Chinese doctor who had the suspicion of a new, dangerous virus was admonished by the officials not to spread fake news. And fact is the virus reached USA prior to shutdown of international flights.

Did Trump warn the US population, did he admonish them to wear masks, did he speak stout against the lies the new virus was only like flu? Did he make sure that there was enough testing available (this was the way the Koreans could reduce the number of daily infection from about 900 a day to literally zero, until there were new infections by Koreans that had fled from dangerous countries like Germany)? Did he set up rules that said when a lockdown should be done?

Addressing the pandemic means things like this. Closing borders was a good idea, but without the other things it is nothing.

Lets say it in a picture: The house next door gets aflame, so you shut the windows lest a spark could come in and set your rooms aflame. Having done this, you calm up the people living in your flat, ridicule a neighbor who "fumbles with water", and when your house also goes aflame you still boast that you fought the fire, and blame the municipal fire fighters (i.e. the WHO) for not acting the right way.

And please answer one question: Why did Trump create an emergency team to fight the pandemic, instead using the emergency board installed by Obama in case there would be a pandemic?

 

[Helmut-WK]

The German media is obviously a little sensitive about the right wing but they forget that the Nazis were defeated by people, just as racist, and with empires of coloured people under their rule.

"Just as racist"? In His book "Mein Kampf" Hitler draw a distinction between irrational and rational antisemitism (his terms, not mine). "Irrational" antisemitism is what will enter your mid when you here the word antisemitism: people rioting, killing some Jews, set a synagogue aflame ... and then the riot dies out, and the "problem" is still there, for most of the Jews have survived the pogrom. He recommended "rational" antisemitism. i.e. exterminating the Jewish race "as humane as possible".

Sometimes it takes one to break one.

Sometimes it takes the Antifa to break fascism. If you doubt this sentence, learn about the origin of the word "antifa".

But unlike the Nazis he has never based his actions on race,

As a businessman he did. And equating Mexicans with criminals is racist propaganda. So he based at least his words on racism when he was president.

Think you underestimate the religious element of the Republican party. They are not that shallow. The formula of God, guns and greed does not work for Germans but remains potent in the USA. That does not make them Nazis, it makes them raw, also think their ideas about God are often distorted. God loves poor people for instance.

I did not say the republicans are Nazis. Almost all of the 38% who voted for Hitler in 1932 were no Nazis in 1928. They were discontent with democracy (and had reasons, like a series of scandals), more or less antisemitic, often monarchists. Hitler took over ground prepared by others.

My last remarks was: Hitler was less self-centered as Trump (though seeing oneself as the center of a movement that will save the nation or even the world is self-centered).

Trump has no honour and is completely self serving. which is one reason the American people have fired him from his job.

Only about half of them, this is so alarming.

What Trump will now do with his last 2 months of power is what terrifies me.

If he could, he would certainly start a coup d'etat. But this is out of possibility (at least I hope so).

EDIT: Typos

 

[mindlight]

"Just as racist"? In His book "Mein Kampf" Hitler draw a distinction between irrational and rational antisemitism (his terms, not mine). "Irrational" antisemitism is what will enter your mid when you here the word antisemitism: people rioting, killing some Jews, set a synagogue aflame ... and then the riot dies out, and the "problem" is still there, for most of the Jews have survived the pogrom. He recommended "rational" antisemitism. i.e. exterminating the Jewish race "as humane as possible".

Hitler was systematic in his racism. The British were, for example, convinced of their racial supremacy, and God given right to rule the world. Dominance of India, when British population living there never really exceeded 100,000, depended on the natives accepting that superiority, and slotting the white rulers in next to top castes, in the caste system. There were various famines in India, where the British prioritised whites over coloured and millions died. It was not deliberate, it was a matter of neglect, born of racially defined priorities and overpopulation under British rule, and a lack of investment in basic infrastructure. So I do not regard the Germans to have a monopoly on racism and its devastating consequences. To a considerable extent, in fact, I think they need to get over themselves on the whole race issue. The Americans in WW2 , were also in their own way racists and the Black - White divide remains an embarassment. Trump actually did some good there and blacks and hispanics voted for him in larger numbers because of that.

Sometimes it takes the Antifa to break fascism. If you doubt this sentence, learn about the origin of the word "antifa".

Antifacists are not racists, but could not organise their way out of a wet paper bag. They are not a viable force to pit against a racist country like the Chinese for example.

As a businessman he did. And equating Mexicans with criminals is racist propaganda. So he based at least his words on racism when he was president.

Using racism for selfish ends is different from being racist. Trump is primarily out for himself.

I did not say the republicans are Nazis. Almost all of the 38% who voted for Hitler in 1932 were no Nazis in 1928. They were discontent with democracy (and had reasons, like a series of scandals), more or less antisemitic, often monarchists. Hitler took over ground prepared by others.

A small well motivated minority can do a lot of damage, but racism today, in a racially mixed America is not a strong enough force to secure the country. China is a different story.

My last remarks was: Hitler was less self-centered as Trump (though seeing oneself as the center of a movement that will save the nation or even the world is self-centered).

He saw Germany as a tool for his will and his vision of world domination. Defeating Trump now is nipping this evil in the bud, rather than when it is fully developed as it was with Hitler. They both had the same dictatorial tendencies

Only about half of them, this is so alarming.

Europeans are not morally superior. Their smug secularism and liberal immorality is a problem. Many of the convictions of Republicans are correct and Europeans may be the ones out of step with God on many of these. The war is between good and evil not conservatives and liberals, Democrats and Republicans. You just have to weigh the balance each election choice. If they get rid of Trump but keep a Republican senate then I think the USA has made the best possible choice in the times.

If he could, he would certainly start a coup d'etat. But this is out of possibility (at least I hope so).

EDIT: Typos

I think some Republicans will be relieved to see the back of him even though they have benefited from his dynamism and astute political mind. He has fired a lot of really good people and marginalised many more. He was an earthquake that needed to happen in 2016 but no longer.

 

[Helmut-WK]

Hitler was systematic in his racism.

This is going off-topic. I made clear that Hitler's racism is worse than the racism of, say, the Ku-Klux-Clan. You can perceive differences between different shades of racism and therefore say, e.g., that the Ku-Klux-Clan was worse than the ordinary racist British colonialist. We agree on that.

Trump actually did some good there and blacks and hispanics voted for him in larger numbers because of that.

He did nothing good for Blacks or Hispanics as a group. Of course, he reduced tariffs, which was appreciated by some Blacks and Hispanics who so paid less taxes. Or maybe the religious background influenced some Blacks or Hispanics to vote them.

AFAIK, there is only one sub-group of Hispanics with a pro-Trump majority: Ex-Cubans and their descendants in Florida. Trump managed it to persuade them that Biden was somewhat pro-communist and voting for him would end up in a communist government in the USA. Well, if I were convinced that a candidate is like that, and I have only one alternative to him, I almost certainly will vote for the other guy (unless he is a fascist as bad as a communist).

Antifacists are not racists,

Oh, I did not mean they are racist, I only compared the violence.

but could not organize their way out of a wet paper bag. They are not a viable force to pit against a racist country like the Chinese for example.

I don't know the US situation, in Europe the Antifa is quite strong enough to do violence. It is almost usual (at least in Germany) that a somewhat leftist peaceful demonstration in the very end (when the bulk of participants already went home) gets violent. Kind of what happened with some rather peaceful BLM protests in the USA. In German news magazines there were videos of a militant black group that marched there to "protect" - it seems they are not that unorganized in the USA.

Using racism for selfish ends is different from being racist. Trump is primarily out for himself.

I can't see any selfish end for refusing to rent flats to black families.

According to some documentations I saw on German TV, the self-centered world view of Trump is a product of the education by his parents. His father ad some affinities to the Nazis (before USA entered WW II), and the superiority of the white race somehow narrowed down to superiority of the Trump family: it is in his genes that Trump is superior in all respects to ordinary humans, he is the person that cannot lose.

A small well motivated minority can do a lot of damage, but racism today, in a racially mixed America is not a strong enough force to secure the country. China is a different story.

You lost me. As to small majority: yes, of course. But as to racism and "secure the country": I can't recall any example where racism has secured anything else than a unjust society. And what do you want to tell about China in that context?

He saw Germany as a tool for his will and his vision of world domination.

That's too simplistic. I once found a book with details of the very start of Hitler' political career. I recall a report of one speech he made in a rather obscure club (some police informant wrote it), it was about the treaty of Brest-Litowsk and the treaty of Versailles. While the presentation of Brest-Litowsk was somewhat biased, the criticism of Versailles was simply true (it is hard to add another point to a treaty unjust in almost every respect).

After the revolution of 1918 and the truce, Germans hoped for a treaty according to the 10 points of president Wilson. But they got a dictated peace, the only fair shift in borders was with Denmark, which had been neutral in WW I. I'm convinced he started with the resolution to serve his country, and it was the admiration of his followers that nourished his selfishness and self-centeredness, and turned him into the Führer known by history.

Europeans are not morally superior. Their smug secularism and liberal immorality is a problem.

I know what you mean. But on the other hand, republicans (and to some degree, also Democrats in the US) are blind to the sin of Sodom - no, not what is usually called such, but what the Bible names so.

A policy which takes Deut 15:4,11 or James 5:1-6 and (the many other passages that speak about wealth) seriously would be called "socialism" by virtually all Republicans - and if you read Rev 11:18 and think about environment issues or climate change, you perceive a huge "immorality" in the Republican program. I could add some more points in which God is definitely "liberal" or even "socialist" (at least in the US coordinates).

You just have to weigh the balance each election choice.

Yes, it is hard to say which is worse, US or European deviation from God's way. For some times, I voted for a green party which was also pro-life - it never got a chance to enter a parliament.

I think some Republicans will be relieved to see the back of him even though they have benefited from his dynamism and astute political mind. He has fired a lot of really good people and marginalised many more. He was an earthquake that needed to happen in 2016 but no longer.

Heard on CNN: The gap between Trump votes and Senate Rep votes show that the Reps are better off when they get rid of Trump altogether.

One way to reconcile the country would be reducing the amount of gerrymandering and other tricks used to prevent the "wrong" people from voting. According to what I see in German TV, such things were predominantly done by Republicans.

 

[mindlight]

He did nothing good for Blacks or Hispanics as a group. Of course, he reduced tariffs, which was appreciated by some Blacks and Hispanics who so paid less taxes. Or maybe the religious background influenced some Blacks or Hispanics to vote them.

AFAIK, there is only one sub-group of Hispanics with a pro-Trump majority: Ex-Cubans and their descendants in Florida. Trump managed it to persuade them that Biden was somewhat pro-communist and voting for him would end up in a communist government in the USA. Well, if I were convinced that a candidate is like that, and I have only one alternative to him, I almost certainly will vote for the other guy (unless he is a fascist as bad as a communist).

Yes the key factor with Hispanic voters in Florida was fears about socialism. Their backgrounds were failed states like Cuba, so when they heard Biden talk about Health Care and other European type reformations the images in their heads corresponded with their Latin American experiences of "socialism".

With Black men , Trump won a lot of votes by making key reforms to the criminal justice system which seems to discriminate against them. So they had good solid reasons to vote for Trump also many of them thought that he would be better in the aftermath of COVID19 to get the economy back.

Oh, I did not mean they are racist, I only compared the violence.

I don't know the US situation, in Europe the Antifa is quite strong enough to do violence. It is almost usual (at least in Germany) that a somewhat leftist peaceful demonstration in the very end (when the bulk of participants already went home) gets violent. Kind of what happened with some rather peaceful BLM protests in the USA. In German news magazines there were videos of a militant black group that marched there to "protect" - it seems they are not that unorganized in the USA.

I did not articulate that very well. Antifa are rebels and I have experience of them here in Germany also burning cars and injuring policemen. They are a bunch of idiot rebels and they do not present a serious alternative to anything. Even regarding racism they probably only succeed in turning peoples backs up. The big geopolitical issues like the rise of China, immigration, global economics and health care in the age of Pandemics are not issues that they can be taken seriously on.

I can't see any selfish end for refusing to rent flats to black families.

That is a throw back to his fathers era and it is hard to grasp from a German point of view. My house price is not deflated in the slightest by having some Turkish neighbours. But in the USA where the Black crime rate, drug usage, divorce rate and health issues are a degree higher than with white community. Unscrupulous businessmen will discriminate against less profitable clients. That is selfishness which helps to perpetuate racism.

According to some documentations I saw on German TV, the self-centered world view of Trump is a product of the education by his parents. His father ad some affinities to the Nazis (before USA entered WW II), and the superiority of the white race somehow narrowed down to superiority of the Trump family: it is in his genes that Trump is superior in all respects to ordinary humans, he is the person that cannot lose.

Well he is about to find out that genes do not guarantee victory.

You lost me. As to small majority: yes, of course. But as to racism and "secure the country": I can't recall any example where racism has secured anything else than a unjust society. And what do you want to tell about China in that context?

Trump for all his faults did hold China to account for its abuses of the international trading system, stealing of intellectual property and spying. I hope Biden is not too nice to carry on this good work. Of course he can fight for American interests without insulting everybody in the process. China is a rival not a friend though.

I know what you mean. But on the other hand, republicans (and to some degree, also Democrats in the US) are blind to the sin of Sodom - no, not what is usually called such, but what the Bible names so.

A policy which takes Deut 15:4,11 or James 5:1-6 and (the many other passages that speak about wealth) seriously would be called "socialism" by virtually all Republicans - and if you read Rev 11:18 and think about environment issues or climate change, you perceive a huge "immorality" in the Republican program. I could add some more points in which God is definitely "liberal" or even "socialist" (at least in the US coordinates).

Yes God cares about poor people and abhors injustice. Some of those frantic prayer warriors yelling outside the voting centres of the USA need to note that.

Yes, it is hard to say which is worse, US or European deviation from God's way. For some times, I voted for a green party which was also pro-life - it never got a chance to enter a parliament.

In regard to doing Christianity, I think Europe is better. In regard to speaking and thinking God Americans seem to have the advantage. Europe cares for its sick and poor, the American system is embarrassed by "losers" and does little for them.

Heard on CNN: The gap between Trump votes and Senate Rep votes show that the Reps are better off when they get rid of Trump altogether.

Yes I think they will do very well in the mid terms without Trump in the mix

One way to reconcile the country would be reducing the amount of gerrymandering and other tricks used to prevent the "wrong" people from voting. According to what I see in German TV, such things were predominantly done by Republicans.

They are a lot of good things enshrined in the quirkiness of the American electoral system including a protection of the balance between rural and city constituencies. The cities would dominate without that. Reform is probably impossible without breaking the good things also.