Edited: Question on Catholic beliefs

[TuxAme]

No, it does not and to every believer in Jesus we read that Christ dwells in our hearts by faith. If Jesus is already in the heart and abides there as we abide in him, then we do not need to eat him in bread to get him into our stomach.

He dwells in the heart by faith, not in the stomach by literal eating.

We are to worship God only, not bread made with human hands.

Also when did Jesus say he changed the bread to Himself?

God was manifest in the flesh, not God was manifest in man made bread.

The most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands Acts 17.

You answered a question I didn't ask. You are trying to sidetrack and bog down the discussion.

Jesus' death was a sacrifice, and according to Jewish law, a Passover sacrifice (which Jesus is) had to be consumed. If Jesus does not offer Himself to us this way, then His death was no sacrifice at all. If not all steps are completed, no sacrifice occurs. You're following the interpretations of men fifteen centuries separated from Christ (unless you're getting your ideas directly from the Docetists).

 

[Eloy Craft]

No. He rose again according to the flesh. And the Word was made flesh.

This Word is the life and the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. In him was life and the life was the light of men.

Jesus said they must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have LIFE IN THEM. This life is spiritual life.

Jesus also said the words that I speak they are spirit and they are life. We are born again by the word of God the seed sown in the heart.

This word is Christ , the true Light the seed, the truth in the inward parts.

This is the free gift that came upon all men, but this only came upon all through the work of Jesus Christ come in the flesh and dying on the cross for our sin and shedding His blood and rising again.

Jesus died on that cross and he is the salvation. But if a man says they believe in the gospel but does not have the new birth they are not saved . The inward life is the reality of his belief. This is a two fold aspect. one is the work of Christ on the cross without us and the other is the work of the cross within us.

We are also crucified with him, burried with him and risen with him.

But unless Jesus Christ came in the flesh and died on the cross the free gift would not have been purchased , which is the seed sown and word and Light that lighteth every man, Christ in us the hope of glory. We have this treasure in earthen vessels. And God is not far from every one of us. All men can feel after Him and find him Acts 17,

Ok , but you didn't answer my question. I'm sure you believe that Jesus has physical flesh and bones after His Resurrection.

 

[Eloy Craft]

So are you saying that Christ did not come in the flesh? Are you saying he was not really human?, or that his flesh was not human flesh?

I hope your not saying this.

He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin condemned sin in the flesh Romans 8.

Jesus is the second Adam.

No, I am referring to His flesh after the Resurrection. His eternal incorruptible flesh.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Jesus said they must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have LIFE IN THEM. This life is spiritual life.

Yes, and Jesus said He is the Bread of life and the Bread that comes down from Heaven. He said His flesh is real food his blood is real drink, then He took some bread and said thanks over it and said This IS my Body take this and EAT. Yet you want to say He meant reading the bible. He wasn't teaching that because no one would have had a clue about what He was talking about. Do you think anyone then thought of the written Word the way you do? How could He be making a comparison with something that hadn't even occurred to anyone? Do you think the Jews thought of their written testimony as bread?

 

[LoveofTruth]

He took some bread and said thanks over it and said This IS my Body take this and EAT.

Jesus also said in that section this is my blood of the new testament which is shed for you"

But as we read in Hebrews 9 the testament was not in effect or force yet until Jesus died. So it was obviously a shadow and type of the reality to come.

Jesus also said he is the door and true vine and good shepherd. Was he literally all these? He said it, and according to some who take many things literally it must be true.

When Jesus said God and tell that fox. Does that mean men were suppose to talk to foxes?

obviously not.

And Jesus isn't a literal door etc or lietral bread.

The word was made flesh and dwelt among us. It does not say the word was made bread.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes, and Jesus said He is the Bread of life and the Bread that comes down from Heaven. He said His flesh is real food his blood is real drink, then He took some bread and said thanks over it and said This IS my Body take this and EAT. Yet you want to say He meant reading the bible. He wasn't teaching that because no one would have had a clue about what He was talking about. Do you think anyone then thought of the written Word the way you do? How could He be making a comparison with something that hadn't even occurred to anyone? Do you think the Jews thought of their written testimony as bread?

they were also forbidden in scripture to eat blood or God would cut them off. This was in God's word and all Jews knew this. In the book of Hebrews we read that our hearts are sprinkled from an evil conscience by the blood of Christ. This is an inward application.

 

[Eloy Craft]

they were also forbidden in scripture to eat blood or God would cut them off. This was in God's word and all Jews knew this. In the book of Hebrews we read that our hearts are sprinkled from an evil conscience by the blood of Christ. This is an inward application.

and?

 

[Eloy Craft]

Jesus also said in that section this is my blood of the new testament which is shed for you"

But as we read in Hebrews 9 the testament was not in effect or force yet until Jesus died. So it was obviously a shadow and type of the reality to come.

Jesus also said he is the door and true vine and good shepherd. Was he literally all these? He said it, and according to some who take many things literally it must be true.

When Jesus said God and tell that fox. Dies that mean men were suppose to talk to foxes?

obviously not.

And Jesus isn't a literal door etc or lietral bread.

The word was made flesh and dwelt among us. It does not say the word was made bread.

I hope you understand your responses have been evasive of one truth about Jesus. The Risen Christ is a physical reality.

 

[TuxAme]

they were also forbidden in scripture to eat blood or God would cut them off. This was in God's word and all Jews knew this. In the book of Hebrews we read that our hearts are sprinkled from an evil conscience by the blood of Christ. This is an inward application.

You're concerned with what the implications of Jesus' words were for His Jewish audience here, but aren't too concerned with what a Jewish sacrifice entailed?

 

[Albion]

Transubstantiation explains how the Real Presence "happens". Did I miss something?

You might have missed the fact that the doctrine of the Real Presence and the doctrine of Transubstantiation are two and separate and also that the latter one was not an Apostolic belief.

 

[Jipsah]

Those are still around?

Unfortunately

 

[Jipsah]

No, it does not and to every believer in Jesus we read that Christ dwells in our hearts by faith. If Jesus is already in the heart and abides there as we abide in him, then we do not need to eat him in bread to get him into our stomach.

Despite what He Himself said. A shame there weren't some 21st century protestants there to correct Him.

 

[Chinchilla]

You answered a question I didn't ask. You are trying to sidetrack and bog down the discussion.

Jesus' death was a sacrifice, and according to Jewish law, a Passover sacrifice (which Jesus is) had to be consumed. If Jesus does not offer Himself to us this way, then His death was no sacrifice at all. If not all steps are completed, no sacrifice occurs. You're following the interpretations of men fifteen centuries separated from Christ (unless you're getting your ideas directly from the Docetists).

Once for all Sacrifice tho

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Not repeating it daily

 

[Ronald]

So yes, we take it in remembrance, and yes, it's His Body and Blood.

When He was handing it to the disciples during the Last Supper, was it His Body then or was He making a symbolic implication? Because He hadn't died yet so . Explain your way out of that one.

Better not ask any of your church brethren to pray for you, either. They're nit God, after all.

Asking the living for intercessory prayers is quite different then asking the dead whom are separated from us. I can understand people wanting to visit graves and talk to their loved ones. If those messages get to them, that's wonderful. I often ask Jesus to say Hello to my loved ones up there. But I never ask for them to pray for me. The Lord told us how to pray. He gave us a template prayer _ to the Father. I don't recall Him asking Moses to pray for Him. I don't recall any of the Jews in the OT for Moses or Elijah to pray for them. They prayed directly to God.

 

[Ronald]

Yikes! Jesus uses truth as a tool to reject people? Not Jesus. They understood. This isn't Jesus causing confusion in his disciples 'to get rid' of them but a lesson in unbelief. Hard truth separates the believers from the unbelievers.

Yikes, the disciples were even clueless as to Jesus going to His sacrifice. They couldn't grasp or accept it. Actually most of the Jews thought when the Messiah came, He would become KING at that time. They were waiting for the Lion to come in all His Glory, not a sacrificial Lamb.
They mourned and were totally broken after His death. Confused and broken, disillusioned and in despair UNTIL HE ROSE. If they actually understand what was about to take place, they would be at peace, just waiting, happy and praising Him at His death _ thanking Him ... "See you in three days LORD". They were clueless. Peter denied Him 3x -- that was how strong his faith was -- in fear of also being tortured. "Nope, don't know Him, never saw Him ... please ... don't be ridiculous!"

 

[BNR32FAN]

Fair enough, but I suppose what I'm trying to understand is the rationale behind that...from either the Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic viewpoint. If the cross was the only sacrifice, and as the Lord said "It is finished", then why "take part in the sacrifice" again? This concept just doesn't make sense to me, which is why I asked. Thanks.

At the last supper Jesus told the apostles do this in remembrance of Me.

 

[Jipsah]

When He was handing it to the disciples during the Last Supper, was it His Body then or was He making a symbolic implication? Because He hadn't died yet so . Explain your way out of that one.

I believe what He said. Hard saying, huh? Who can hear it?

Asking the living for intercessory prayers is quite different then asking the dead whom are separated from us.

If those who have gone to be with the lord can't hear us, no harm, no foul. If they can, it'd be noce to have them pray for us, don't you think?

The Lord told us how to pray. He gave us a template prayer _ to the Father.

Better not ask old Mrs. Kim to pray for you, then. She's not the Father.

I don't recall Him asking Moses to pray for Him. I don't recall any of the Jews in the OT for Moses or Elijah to pray for them. They prayed directly to God.

They didn't pray in Jesus name, either. They're not particularly good examples on a number of levels, are they?

 

[Landon Caeli]

You might have missed the fact that the doctrine of the Real Presence and the doctrine of Transubstantiation are two and separate

For you, yes. For us no.

 

[Ronald]

Don't make this about me and accuse me of anything. You can certainly make your point without character assassination.

On topic, are you suggesting that Jesus let His audience go without explanation? That He let them leave over a misunderstanding that He could have cleared up (and He corrected misunderstandings at every opportunity). What kind of a teacher would that make Him? His audience understood Him perfectly well, and this is why He didn't chase after those who left. They understood Him and rejected Him- there was nothing more to do. He didn't, as you suggest, allow them to believe erroneously and leave Him for that reason.

Was Jesus' death a sacrifice or not? Is He a Passover sacrifice? Not according to your own theology. How could He be our Passover if we don't complete the sacrifice? You would have us slay the lamb and leave it at that, but God made it clear that the sacrifice didn't end with the death of the lamb. It had to be consumed. If you didn't eat the lamb, there was no sacrifice- you just killed an animal. You are at odds with God's Word.

You started making implications about me:
"By rejecting this critical detail, you reject that His death was a sacrifice." ... and this: "By denying His words, you become one of those who no longer went about with him."
These are false accusations on both counts!
Sounds like you can dish it out but can't take it?

We consume His word. We believe -- it's a spiritual transformation, by faith, through Grace and not by works. The OT rituals, sacrifices ... all works that could not save. They could not keep the LAW. But Catholics are a bit legalistic and so are some Protestants as well. We are under Grace and so do not or need to be yoked to those OT ways.
As I asked the other oppose, During the Last Supper, when Jesus handed the bread to the disciples and said this is my body and blood, was it? Or was He being symbolic. Because He hadn't died yet. So figure out a good answer for that one.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Despite what He Himself said. A shame there weren't some 21st century protestants there to correct Him.

No need to correct anything I agree with all Jesus words.

Jesus said

“ John 15 - 4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.”

Nothing said here about eating physical bread to have him abide in them. Christ dwells in our hearts by faith.

As believers abide in him through faith he abides in them.

Paul preached the gospel of salvation and he didn’t add water baptism, the Lords supper, circumcision, the Mosaic law, etc. If any add to this gospel they are making another gospel.

He also said they are saved IF they KEEP in memory the gospel . The supper helps to remember Christ work as a remembrance of him. This is how we are in Christ thrpugh faith not by literally eating bread. Christ dwells in the hearts of all believers and this common union we have is through his death and shed blood and his resurrection. All believers are parts of the body of Christ (1 Cor 12,Ephesians 1, etc etc) and we being many are one body and one bread and we are all parakeets of that one bread. As the body of Christ all believers have Christ working in them and they are then able to feed one another and edify one another and partake of the body ministry in Christ being one body and one bread.

But as for the saving gospel consider this below and notice no mention of eating bread and drinking the cup literally for salvation. Those things help us to keep in memory the wrk of Christ, but the reality is inward .Jesus said he would come into men and sup with them.

1 Corinthians 15 - 1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”