Eddie Long and the Torah Scroll

[Avodat]

I think you are just quibbling at this point.

When I say born again, that should be sufficient. Only those who are saved have received the indwelling Holy Spirit. That is the definition of born again. Those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit have experienced a change. The Old Man is dead, and they are now a New Creation. With that New Creation comes a hunger for God and a change in outlook. That hunger and change causes the people to hunger enough to read scripture.

If you find a person claiming to be Christian, but is only a Sunday Christian or a Christmas and Easter service Christian, and rarely reads scripture, then they have no hunger for God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So how does one receive this Spirit? It is a gift. And only given to those who have faith in the completed work of Messiah.

And finally, yes, I do share the gospel with Catholics, Jewish people, Muslims, and Protestants.


So, who would you say Jesus is to you?


Added: While I think the RCC is Christian in a general scense as it confesses the Jesus is God, come in the flesh, to die for sins, and rose again the third day. The RCC in a more specific sense is not Christian, as it teaches another way to salvation. Salvation by the church ordinances. It is a sacridotal system of salvation. And from a Jewish standpoint, commits the sin of idolatry with the statues.

Not really, you said you were very specific on what you meant when a question was raised about denominations - that was not the case. You then wrote excluding most of the 3 great parts of the Christian faith. You expect no one to ask what you mean??? My other questions go unanswered, on the whole. I'm underwhelmed by your response.

Best speak to others off screen about the HS - there are many here who believe in him (incl me) and many who do not. To say that he is given only to those who are saved may be taken to imply that those who are non-Trinitarian are not saved. That may breach forum rules.



Jesus, to me, is Yeshua haMashiach

 

[Qnts2]

Jesus, to me, is Yeshua haMashiach

Jesus is the Messiah, but He is much much more then that.

Do you believe Yeshua died for your sin (And mine)?

 

[Qnts2]

Not really, you said you were very specific on what you meant when a question was raised about denominations - that was not the case. You then wrote excluding most of the 3 great parts of the Christian faith. You expect no one to ask what you mean??? My other questions go unanswered, on the whole. I'm underwhelmed by your response.

Best speak to others off screen about the HS - there are many here who believe in him (incl me) and many who do not. To say that he is given only to those who are saved may be taken to imply that those who are non-Trinitarian are not saved. That may breach forum rules.



Jesus, to me, is Yeshua haMashiach

I should also say, that all major Messianic Judaism organizations affirm the Holy Spirit.

The largest Messianic Jewish organization.
MJAA - From the statement of faith: We believe that the Shema, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Deuteronomy 6:4), teaches that God is Echad, as so declared: a united one, a composite unity, eternally existent in plural oneness [Genesis 1:1 (Elohim: God); Genesis 1:26 "Let Us make man in Our image"; Genesis 2:24 Adam & Eve were created to be as one flesh (basar echad)], that He is a personal God who created us (Genesis 1 & 2), and that He exists forever in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as mentioned in Romans 8:14-17 (Father, Spirit, and Messiah - Son) and Mattew 28:18-20 (immersing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

The second largest Messianic Jewish organization:

UMJC - From the statement of faith:

1. We believe the Bible is the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of G-d.
2. We believe that there is one G-d, eternally existent in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
3. We believe in the deity of the L-RD Yeshua, the Messiah, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory.
4. We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful man, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential.
5. We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the believer is enabled to live a godly life.
6. We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life, and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.
7. We believe in the spiritual unity of all believers in the L-RD Yeshua, the Messiah.
8. We believe in the process of discipline and conflict resolution taught in Matthew 18:15ff, as applicable to all congregants and leaders.
9. As Jewish followers of Yeshua, we are called to maintain our Jewish biblical heritage and remain a part of our people Israel and the universal body of believers. This is part of our identity and a witness to the faithfulness of G-d.

Now some others Messianic Judaism organizations:

The Association of Messianic Congregations- From their statement of faith:

The Tri-unity
We believe that God is one but has manifested Himself in three separate and distinct Persons. Hence, we believe that God is a Tri-unity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God is the creator of all things. He is infinite and perfect, eternally existing in three equal persons, each possessing the nature of deity, as well as the characteristics of personality. He is Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient. (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 48:16; Matthew 28:19; John 6:27; Acts 5:3,4; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Hebrews 1:8)

Part 1: God the Father - We believe He is Father over all creation, and thus its sovereign ruler; Father of Israel, whom He has chosen as His unique people; Father of Messiah Yeshua (Jesus), whom He sent into the world to redeem mankind and creation; and Father of all who trust in His gracious provision. (Exodus 4:22; Matthew 3:17; John 1:12, 3:16; Acts 17:29; Galatians 3:26)

Part 2: God the Son - We believe that God the Son became flesh in the person of Yeshua of Nazareth, the promised Messiah of Israel, who was conceived of the Spirit of God and born of the Jewish virgin, Miriam (Mary). We believe in His full deity and full humanity, His sinless life, and His miracles. We believe that Messiah Yeshua arose from the dead bodily, ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for believers. He will come again in glory establishing His literal Millennial kingdom on earth. (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6,7; Jeremiah 23:5,6; Micah 5:2; Luke 1:26-79; John 1:1,2,14-18)

Part 3: God the Holy Spirit - We believe the Ruach HaKodesh (The Holy Spirit) is a Person. He possesses all the distinct attributes of deity and personality. He does not call attention to Himself and is ever present to glorify and testify of Messiah Yeshua. We believe the Spirit of God is active today, convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. He regenerates, seals, and sets the believer apart to a holy life. At the moment of salvation, each believer is baptized with the Spirit into the body of Messiah and at the same moment is permanently indwelt by the Spirit. All believers are complete in Messiah and possess every spiritual blessing. We believe that at salvation the Holy Spirit sovereignly imparts at least one spiritual gift to every believer for the purpose of edifying and equipping the body of Messiah.
(Nehemiah 9:20; Psalm 139:7; John 15:26, 16:13-15; Acts 5:4; 1 Corinthians 2:10,11; 12:11; 2 Cor. 13:14)

The following are not mainstream Messianic Judaism (they vary on some doctrinal issues with the majority of Messianic Judaism), but are considered a part of Messianic Judaism.

Messianic Bureau International- from their statement of faith:

2. Hear, O Israel: YHVH [the L-RD] is our Elohim. He isOne YHVH. He alone is YHVH. Deuteronomy 6:4.
3. The nature of YHVH is a compound unity expressed in the aspects of Abba [the Father], Yeshua [Salvation, the Son, Messiah] and Ruach HaKodesh [the Holy Spirit/Breath] in this age. Matthew 28:19.


I have now covered probably 90% of Messianic Judaism.

There are other groups which fly under the flag of Messianic, but many of these other groups have been rejected by Messianic Judaism, in formal papers.

So, when I am on a board titled Messianic Judaism, that makes a statement concerning belief. Messianic Judaism, as I like to phrase it, believes there is One God who is eternally triune in nature, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I think a separate section may be needed called Messianic, and not Messianic Judaism.





UMJC

 

[Avodat]

I get the idea - I've been a believer for some 30 years!

BTW Large print, bold or not, is akin to shouting on these fora!

It doesn't change the fact some on here are non-Trinitarian - they have Menorah icons, usually. It is a fact of life on here that we all live with and respect each others view point on this issue.

As the matter cannot be debated as to whether Trinitarianism is right, or wrong, I have nothing further to say on this particular issue.

 

[Avodat]

Jesus is the Messiah, but He is much much more then that.

Do you believe Yeshua died for your sin (And mine)?

You, also, are a Messianic believer, according to your icon, at least. You therefore know the answer to your own question ... but he is much, much more than that, as you say, and I believe.

Don't see your problem!

 

[Qnts2]

I get the idea - I've been a believer for some 30 years!

BTW Large print, bold or not, is akin to shouting on these fora!

It doesn't change the fact some on here are non-Trinitarian - they have Menorah icons, usually. It is a fact of life on here that we all live with and respect each others view point on this issue.

As the matter cannot be debated as to whether Trinitarianism is right, or wrong, I have nothing further to say on this particular issue.

I was not debating Trinitarianism. I made a statement about the Holy Spirit indwelling. It was actually you who challenged me on Trinitarianism, when I made a statement about the Holy Spirit.

But, according to this forum, under statement of purpose, Messianic Judaism:

A few things to know about Messianic Believers: *we are using the MJAA here to provide further explaination.

• Main Stream Messianic Judaism affirms the Trinitarian nature of God-*The "Messianic Jewish identity" is wholly dependent on the person of Yeshua: God Himself come to earth to reconcile the Jewish people and all nations to Himself.
  

So, it is not out of line to mention the Holy Spirit on a Messianic Judaism forum.

Because of the varying theologies calling themselves Messianic which do not line up with Messianic Judaism, I do not like to call myself Messianic but had no other choice. I am a Messianic Jew and the statement of purpose under this section, does accurately align with my beliefs.

Added: also from the statement of purpose for Messianic Judaism.

In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action.

So, the established views of the faith group includes 'Messianic Judaism affirms the Trinitarian nature of God'

 

[Avodat]

I was not debating Trinitarianism. I made a statement about the Holy Spirit indwelling. It was actually you who challenged me on Trinitarianism, when I made a statement about the Holy Spirit.

But, according to this forum, under statement of purpose, Messianic Judaism:

A few things to know about Messianic Believers: *we are using the MJAA here to provide further explaination.

• Main Stream Messianic Judaism affirms the Trinitarian nature of God-*The "Messianic Jewish identity" is wholly dependent on the person of Yeshua: God Himself come to earth to reconcile the Jewish people and all nations to Himself.

So, it is not out of line to mention the Holy Spirit on a Messianic Judaism forum.

Because of the varying theologies calling themselves Messianic which do not line up with Messianic Judaism, I do not like to call myself Messianic but had no other choice. I am a Messianic Jew and the statement of purpose under this section, does accurately align with my beliefs.

Added: also from the statement of purpose for Messianic Judaism.

In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action.

So, the established views of the faith group includes 'Messianic Judaism affirms the Trinitarian nature of God'

I was wanting to stop our discussion going any further in the wrong direction as far as the rules are concerned, that's all, I could see we might easily put a foot wrong if we carried on.

 

[Gerat_Tzedek]

Interesting. I find it curious that so many introverts use forums.....because many responses from introverts, do not appear to be 'introverted" at all, but rather bold, and confrontational. if one is only like this on forums, but not in real life, it seems dishonest to me,

Adopting personas is not dishonest. We all wear different hats depending on where we are and who we are with. Far from being a lie, a persona is simply developing a part of yourself that is weaker but necessary. For example, I like having things organized and scheduled, but I'm a musician, and the norm for musicians is to be spontaneous and open--when I'm with my musician friends my persona is very colorful and flamboyant: it took me years to get it just right. Another example: I'm a hard core feeler. I wear my emotions on my sleeve. But this tends to go badly in print, there are way too many misunderstandings. So I have worked hard to develop an online persona that is more calm and reasonable. It's not that I'm not calm or that I'm unreasonable. It's just that those qualities are things in myself that I've needed to work on.

I think it's also important to make sure we are on the same page with regard to what introversion is. An Extrovert recharges their batteries by socializing. An Introvert recharges their batteries by creating space. I LOVE people! But they drain me, and I need my alone time to regroup. Being an introvert does NOT mean you are a doormat that everyone walks all over. Visit any INFJ forum (Introverted, iNtuitive, Feeling, Judging) and you will instantly see just how opinionated and feisty introverts can be.

 

[Gerat_Tzedek]

That was my poor wording.

Well you did a fabulous job of clarifying! Thanks.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
Interesting. I find it curious that so many introverts use forums.....because many responses from introverts, do not appear to be 'introverted" at all, but rather bold, and confrontational. if one is only like this on forums, but not in real life, it seems dishonest to me,

Adopting personas is not dishonest. We all wear different hats depending on where we are and who we are with. Far from being a lie, a persona is simply developing a part of yourself that is weaker but necessary. For example, I like having things organized and scheduled, but I'm a musician, and the norm for musicians is to be spontaneous and open--when I'm with my musician friends my persona is very colorful and flamboyant: it took me years to get it just right. Another example: I'm a hard core feeler. I wear my emotions on my sleeve. But this tends to go badly in print, there are way too many misunderstandings. So I have worked hard to develop an online persona that is more calm and reasonable. It's not that I'm not calm or that I'm unreasonable. It's just that those qualities are things in myself that I've needed to work on.

I think it's also important to make sure we are on the same page with regard to what introversion is. An Extrovert recharges their batteries by socializing. An Introvert recharges their batteries by creating space. I LOVE people! But they drain me, and I need my alone time to regroup. Being an introvert does NOT mean you are a doormat that everyone walks all over. Visit any INFJ forum (Introverted, iNtuitive, Feeling, Judging) and you will instantly see just how opinionated and feisty introverts can be.

I'm only referring to the surprise of finding those who describe themselves as introverts, who have been super bold and confrontational, and only because they are on the internet, and never, ever would say such in-yer-face things if they were in person, face-to-face.

I'm the same on-line and off-line. It continues to surprise me that so many use the internet to hide behind. it's kind of sleazy.

 

[Gerat_Tzedek]

I certainly agree with you that some people respond very poorly to the anonymity of the internet, and say all sorts of things they would never say in real life. I've seen it a wee bit in myself -- in real life I NEVER swear (when I loose my temper, I tell people to shut up, and then feel bad about that later LOL), but in yahoo chats (which really bring out the worst in me) I do occasionally swear, even use the F word. Then I have to apologize. Oy.

 

[yedida]

I don't like confrontation in either venue, but when necessary I'm more firm in person.
Both places I do try to be the peacemaker, the balancer, but online I will pull back more quickly than in person simply due to the venue.

 

[brinny]

I certainly agree with you that some people respond very poorly to the anonymity of the internet, and say all sorts of things they would never say in real life. I've seen it a wee bit in myself -- in real life I NEVER swear (when I loose my temper, I tell people to shut up, and then feel bad about that later LOL), but in yahoo chats (which really bring out the worst in me) I do occasionally swear, even use the F word. Then I have to apologize. Oy.

LOL! Seriously? I am a recovering "swear-er". i swore no matter where i was...the equivalent of a dozen raunchy sailors (yeah, it was baaaad....i mostly swore at ig'nant bullies and drug dealers, and in defense of others being intimidated by big ol' cowards, etc.)

God's been patient with me. I don't swear no more.

I believe we should be "transparent', online and off, and speak only those things we would say face-to-face, in person. Otherwise, we're not really being honest or authentic.

 

[SAM Wis]

NOTE: This observation is in NO WAY meant to condone the inappropriate actions of Mr.'s Messer and Long!!

Just wondering if anyone else has read this book:

Real Jews: Secular Versus Ultra-Orthodox: The Struggle for Jewish Identity in Israel by Noah J. Efron (Hardcover - May 27, 2003)

I read it in May 2011 and found it quite interesting and challenging, too.
Perhaps related to all of this discussion and concern about what constitutes a "real Rabbi" ?

A note from my journal after I read it:

"Reading this "Real Jews" book causes me to pale at the thought and responsibility of anyone thinking we know enough to teach what is right."


In some ways it seems to me that we "Messianics", especially American Messianics, are struggling with the very same issues that have separated all the various "sects" within Judaisim at large, (and the denominational churches too, for that matter!) but they have had more time to settle into more fixed patterns of difference. Not at all sure this is really any better.

May our Abba keep all of us back from presumptuous sin!

 

[brinny]

NOTE: This observation is in NO WAY meant to condone the inappropriate actions of Mr.'s Messer and Long!!

Just wondering if anyone else has read this book:

Real Jews: Secular Versus Ultra-Orthodox: The Struggle for Jewish Identity in Israel by Noah J. Efron (Hardcover - May 27, 2003)

I read it in May 2011 and found it quite interesting and challenging, too.
Perhaps related to all of this discussion and concern about what constitutes a "real Rabbi" ?

A note from my journal after I read it:

"Reading this "Real Jews" book causes me to pale at the thought and responsibility of anyone thinking we know enough to teach what is right."


In some ways it seems to me that we "Messianics", especially American Messianics, are struggling with the very same issues that have separated all the various "sects" within Judaisim at large, (and the denominational churches too, for that matter!) but they have had more time to settle into more fixed patterns of difference. Not at all sure this is really any better.

May our Abba keep all of us back from presumptuous sin!

In Proverbs (all throughout it) we are told to seek wisdom and embrace it. It is promised by God that we shall receive it and it will be placed like a crown on our heads, and long life and blessings will be ours. In James we are told to ask for it and God will surely grant it. Wisdom and discernment will be ours. We will then use it to bless and minister to others. God is GOOD. He gives us good gifts, praise His name.

 

[brinny]

Lisa Gerrard is singing background in this video of glimpses of the movie "Schindler's List", based on Oskar Schindler, an unlikely man to have a heart for the Jewish people...God's grace is inexplicable. He can win and turn the hearts of the most unlikeliest of people.

He was honored as a righteous Gentile by survivors of the holocaust.

Schindlers List - Lisa Gerrard-the valley of the moon - YouTube

 

[brinny]

Corrie Ten boom

You Are My Hiding Place: The Story of Corrie ten Boom - YouTube

 

[brinny]

I AM the GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! - YouTube

 

[ChavaK]

He's at it again....

 

[Lulav]

Praise God! you can't handle this, Praise god!

He's right, I can't handle it.

But he must have done this previously to the Eddie Long thing because he said it was Simchat Torah.

Imagine all that dirt, oils and such being wiped on that 400 year scroll. !