Ecumenical Movement

[MORTANIUS]

So by comparing Roman Paganism to early Christianity, what you are saying is that Western Churches are the Roman pagans while the you are the Christians?

 

[MORTANIUS]

Apparently the path is narrower for the Ecumenical movement, seeing how opposition for it is stronger than support for it.

 

[Maximus]

So by comparing Roman Paganism to early Christianity, what you are saying is that Western Churches are the Roman pagans while the you are the Christians?

Read what I wrote. I made no such comparison.

My point was that Christianity is not about religious tolerance in the sense of accepting everyone else's religion.

 

[Maximus]

Apparently the path is narrower for the Ecumenical movement, seeing how opposition for it is stronger than support for it.

Really?

I think you would have a hard time backing that statement up.

All of the mainline Protestant churches, the Roman Catholics, the Non-Chalcedonians, and the more liberal Orthodox are involved in it.

The world loves it.

 

[sin_vladimirov]

Given what happened last time I opened my mouth about these sort of matters, I will just

 

[Maximus]

-quote deleted-

Actually, I did no such thing.

You accused us of "intolerance."

I pointed out that the Romans persecuted the early Christians precisely because the early Christians were intolerant.

I did not say or even imply that the heterodox Western churches are like pagan Romans.

I merely demonstrated that Christianity is not about tolerance and inclusion with regard to everyone else's religion.

 

[Maximus]

Roman Catholics are more inclined to believe as Orthodox do in terms of everyone coming to them for guidance.

The Roman Catholic Church is completely committed to the modern ecumenical movement.

Have you read the relevant sections of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on that subject? I have.

Have you read Unitatis Redintegratio, the Decree on Ecumenism, from Vatican II? I have.

Naturally, the RCC's approach to ecumenism is to have everyone agree to a minimalistic doctrinal statement and to unite under the authority of the Pope, but its commitment to and participation in the ecumenical movement is well known.

If you doubt me, just ask the folks over in OBOB. They'll tell you.

Protestant groups find a kinship with one another is some cases because of a shared experience and cultural history.

And a shared ecclesiology.

Please don't confuse these things with something that can't be backed up by your statements as well.

The statement that cannot be backed up was yours.

You said that there is more opposition to than support for the ecumenical movement.

That is not true, as I pointed out. The mainline Protestant churches, the Roman Catholic Church, the Non-Chalcedonians, and the more liberal Orthodox are all deeply involved in it.

Simply claiming "the world loves it" doesn't prove anything.

It wasn't meant to prove anything.

It was a statement of fact.

You would be surprised how many people feel bitterly about something as simple as Dialogue.

I guess that depends upon what you mean by "dialogue."

 

[ufonium2]

The involvement of the Orthodox in the WCC is the only thing that has kept the WCC from issuing blatantly pro-abortion decrees in the past. Of course, stuff like that has caused the WCC to form a "special commission" just for us, to figure out how to deal with us and how to keep us in their fold even as they are drifting farther from orthodox Christianity. Honestly, I don't see how our involvement in the WCC does us any good, but if it delays the WCC's descent into humanism, even by just a while, maybe it's worth it.

 

[Maximus]

The involvement of the Orthodox in the WCC is the only thing that has kept the WCC from issuing blatantly pro-abortion decrees in the past. Of course, stuff like that has caused the WCC to form a "special commission" just for us, to figure out how to deal with us and how to keep us in their fold even as they are drifting farther from orthodox Christianity. Honestly, I don't see how our involvement in the WCC does us any good, but if it delays the WCC's descent into humanism, even by just a while, maybe it's worth it.

It hasn't delayed it at all.

It has just prevented the WCC from issuing official pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage statements.

But with whom are we hobnobbing at WCC interfaith functions and "prayer meetings" if not with female, gay, and pro-abortion "clerics"?

How many of them have turned from the error of their ways as a result of our participation?

Are they not rather encouraged in their pursuits and given a false sense of security?

What of our witness to the world, which sees us as complicit in these things as a consequence of our membership in such apostate organizations?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

..

 

[sin_vladimirov]

Indeed.

 

[Maximus]

Mortanius -

Why continue to trouble us?

You invited us to a discussion on icons in the Lutheran Forum only to accuse us of idolatry.

Now you have posted this thread only to rail at us for our intolerance, pride, and arrogance.

Go in peace.

 

[xenia]

/MOD HAT/

Guest will be reminded that they may make two kinds of posts in TAW:

1. Fellowship posts.
2. Sincere questions about Eastern Orthodoxy.

Debating, arguing, insulting, hectoring.... these kinds of posts will be deleted and warnings will be issued according to CF protocol.

-Xenia

/MOD HAT OFF/

 

[pravoslavno]

...Orthodox participation in the Ecumenical Movement has degenerated more and more into an anarchical, truth-despising and canon-despising activity. As such, it cannot but have the strong condemnation of it by enlightened, pious Orthodox Christians. For they take their Faith with the greatest seriousness, regarding it as the only Truth—the Truth that leads to salvation. - —Dr. Constantine Cavarnos, "Fr. Georges Florovsky on Ecumenism," p. 15

"By pronouncing anathema against ecumenism, the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is protecting its flock from this apocalyptic temptation. At the same time it has involuntarily imposed a serious task upon the conscience of all local Churches as, sooner or later, they will have to resolve this issue in one way or another. Their further spiritual destiny in the Orthodox Church will depend on how they solve this problem. De jure, this anathema pronounced by us is of a purely local character (of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad), but, de facto, it is of great historical and universal significance only because ecumenism is itself the heresy of a universal scale. The place of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is apparently on the conscience of all Orthodox Christians. This is the large cross which the Lord has placed on our shoulders. It is impossible to keep silent any longer, because any further silence could be likened to a betrayal of the truth, and may God deliver us all from that" (Metropolitan Vitaly)

 

[Xpycoctomos]

I think it important to note, too, that while the WCC is a disappointment, there is genuine dialogue with those that are closest to us (OO and RC) that remains in a hopeful spirit.

kevin

That's fine, but do these relationships depend on the WCC?

 

[Maximus]

That's fine, but do these relationships depend on the WCC?

They depend on the same sorts of assumptions upon which the WCC and its activities depend.

The dialogues with the Non-Chalcedonians were begun under the auspices of the WCC.

 

[Padraig]

That's fine, but do these relationships depend on the WCC?

No, I don't think they do. Most of the dialogues and such take place outside the WCC. Really the only folks we have dialogue with at all are the OO's and RC's. A few years ago there was a dialogue with the Methodists but nothing came of it. Even if the Orthodox did pull out of the WCC, these dialogues would continue, I think. Maybe that's what we need to look at doing.

kevin

 

[MariaRegina]

Christianity is a highly intolerant faith.

Its Way is narrow, not broad and easy.

Why were Christians persecuted by the Romans?

Because Christians were tolerant and accepting of other religions?

The Romans were perfectly willing to add Christ to their ever-growing pantheon of gods.

Christians were persecuted precisely because they denied everyone else's religion.

Our obligation is to Christ and the truth, not to some worldly standard of tolerance and inclusion.

Excellent post!

The Romans accused the Early Christians of idolatry, believe it or not, because we won't worship their Emperor, who declared himself as god. Kind of reminds me of Star Wars. The Emperor was so devilish, wasn't he?

Not only that, the Romans accused the Christians of cannabalism.

Any wonder why we have that communion prayer,

Of Thy Mystic Supper, O Son of God,
accept me today as a communicant:
for I will not speak of Thy Mysteries to Thine enemies,
neither will I give Thee a kiss as did Judas;
but like the thief will I confess Thee:
Remember me, O Lord, in Thy Kingdom.

 

[Maximus]

How am I permitted to make "Fellowship Posts" According the majority of replies in this particular thread, their is no fellowship desire on the part of Orthodoxy? And then people such as Maximus complain I accuse them of "intolerance" when really he professed this on his own.

My point was that you apparently have a Protestant axe to grind, an agenda.

It is evident you did not come here to learn about Orthodoxy but to argue your point of view.

We will attempt to answer your questions, but you are not allowed to argue here or to make accusations.

Ever wonder why so many Lutherans - including myself - have become Orthodox?

Ever wonder why the greatest Lutheran scholar of the recent past, Jaroslav Pelikan, became Orthodox?

 

[sin_vladimirov]

Lol