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Ecclisiastic Authority?

TCat

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Recently I failed to attend a meeting called by my pastors at my husbands insistance that I remain at home and let him attend to the business at hand. Unfortuately I have been severely chastised by my ministry leader and pastors for not attending.
When I got to speak to the assoc. pastor he cited ecclisiastic (sp) authority, saying that I should have attended the meeting regardless of what my husband wanted.
Is this right? Is there some type of authority over me beyond my husband? Should I have refused to submit to my spouse and gone to the meeting because my pastors called it?
The meeting concerned my teenaged son and his girlfriend, they were chastised and disciplined for their actions but my not being there was not really relevant.
 

porterross

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Hi, TCat. I can't imagine not wanting to be part of such a meeting that involved my child and I am a bit confused as to why your husband insisted you not attend. Maybe he felt that because it involved your son, it was more of a male issue that he could and should address????

What strikes me as odd about what you've shared is that your husband insisted you stay home and not be involved in a process that involved your child. Wow! That would have never flown with me (not that my husband would suggest it) if someone was going to discipline my child for something as I would think mothers offer a unique advocacy for, and understanding of, their children.

Maybe your relationships with your son and husband are different than those I'm aware of, but a husband's place as spiritual head of the household doesn't preclude a wife's right to be equally involved in important matters within the church that affect the family. In fact, I believe the opposite to be true and apparently your pastors do, too. Good for them!

Again, I can't get over the fact that your husband insisted you not be part of something that involved your child. I was raised in the LCMS and I've never heard of such attitudes being put forth by men. If there had been, I'd have never come back to it, but then I am very sensitive to women's fair treatment and consideration, especially living in a society that does nothing but further repress and degrade them under the false heading of individual rights to be free to glorify one's self. Ugh!

Perhaps one of our learned ordained can further help by defining the real roles of men in the household as our heads, because I honestly believe it is woefully misunderstood and abused. Forgive me if I've rambled.
 
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Tangible

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Hi, TCat. Sorry for asking, but it's not really clear from your message. Was your husband invited to the meeting too? And what exactly do you mean by "business at hand"?

I know that my wife and I would have placed a very high priority on being present (especially if asked) in a disciplinary meeting for our son, and we would be seeking the pastors' advice on how to best handle the situation at home in a way that did not duplicate any punitive actions, yet was in full support of the pastor's authority.
 
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DaRev

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The biblical role of headship of the husband in the family is one of servitude. The husband is the servant of his wife and family, providing for and protecting. It is not a role of lord and master. In fact, an ancient Hebraic word for "husband" is the word "ba'al" which means "lord and master". It fell out of use because of its negative (and unbiblical) connotation.

It's difficult to get a proper handle on your situation from what you posted, but it seems to me that your pastors should not be as concerned with your absence as much as they should be concerned with your husband's insistance that you not attend.
 
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TCat

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Thank you for your replys, my husband was trying to be protective in that he understood our pastor to be very angry at our son for his actions and feared that our family may be coming under attack at the meeting. My husband also knows that my heart was devastated by some of the issues we were dealing with and he felt as if he were being the "white knight" coming to the defense of his family and asking me to stay home so as not to be further hurt. Actually I was very proud of him for stepping up and defending his family and asking me to stay home, but that is not the issue.

I know it's complicated and my question remains about "ecclisiastic authority". As a result of not attending the meeting I have been dismissed from a ministry that I have been very actively involved in for the last 3 years. My ministry leader was very angry that I did not go to the meeting even though it had nothing to do with the ministry I was involved in and told me to talk to my assoc. pastor about it. When he finally got around to talking to me about it 2 months later he said that I should have come regardless of my husband because in the Lutheran tradition there is something called "Ecclisiatic Authority". I have never heard of it and wondered what he was talking about.

BTW, all is well, I am continuing to serve in the ministry that God has called me into, I no longer have the title but that was never something I needed to love and serve those people in need and fellowship.
 
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Tangible

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While "ecclesiastical authority" is not a term you hear very often, it is definitely something that is bound up in the Office of the Keys and church discipline.

Something in what you are writing just doesn't add up to me. I still don't understand why your husband at least would not want to meet with your pastors about a situation regarding your son. The more serious the issue, the more I would be seeking my pastor's guidance.

But it's not really my place to pry. If you are asking for advice then unless there is some breach of ethics or ministerial malpractice by the pastor involved, I would advise you to meet with your pastor. If there are serious problems with your pastor, then you should definitely be meeting with your elders and/or your district office.
 
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porterross

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Well, no one should be angry with you to that degree, no matter what your teenager did. That sounds a bit odd, but given what you've stated above, it seems the initial description of your husband's motives were misunderstood. He sounds like a sweetheart and was indeed looking to protect his family, but I can't imagine a situation where anyone should be afraid of their pastor or anyone in leadership in the church.

Color me confused, but I can't imagine removing a member from a ministry position because of an unrelated family matter, especially if your lack of attendance was explained by your husband, who thought he was doing the right thing. That all seems a bit unfair as you've explained it, but again, I find it extraordinary that your pastor would demand a meeting with anger motivating his desire to address something. How can that benefit anyone or does someone at your church have control issues? :sorry:

I'm glad you're still able to take part in what you enjoy to benefit others and I hope your family can get past the issue. Hopefully, your son learned a valuable lesson from all the grief he caused you. :pray:
 
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TCat

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Thank you for your replys, yes there are some control issues in our church leadership and yes there was anger from the pastor, he is a good man but Satan is on the move and I think is stirring the pot.
I was asking about the authority issue because my assoc. pastor brought in up as to the reason I should have attended that meeting. I wanted to be certain that I had not missed something important, something I had never heard before.
 
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BigNorsk

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Generally in the LCMS, the congregation, the church, has been seen as the authority. Hearing an LCMS minister appeal to ecclesiatical authority strikes me as a bit unusual.

I could see the point of it if it was a meeting with you as to your position of ministry.

However, I thought this was a meeting concerning your family and your husband is in the God given position of the head of the household, as such, since it was not sinful for you to not attend, it was your husband's call according to his office.
 
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Sorry I disagree. We don't even have the full story here at all, and we are already judging the Pastor. I think your walking on very thin ice here, and surely one that meets within the confines of the 8th commandment, and what does this mean.

My 2 cents
 
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BigNorsk

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I think the real story is a parishioner being told they are wrong because of something they don't have a clue what it even is.

How is one to know something if they have not even heard?

Everyone involved is trying to do the right thing. The pastors are concerned about the child, so are the parents, the husband wants to protect his wife, and so on.

It really shouldn't turn into a big power struggle.
 
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But it's not really my place to pry. If you are asking for advice then unless there is some breach of ethics or ministerial malpractice by the pastor involved, I would advise you to meet with your pastor. If there are serious problems with your pastor, then you should definitely be meeting with your elders and/or your district office.

I don't think this kind of advise is the norm for anyone who is a member of a Lutheran Church Body. I think its Unethial, and I also think that the whole story hasn't even been presented here period. The pastor has a job to do, and he is trained in seminary in how to deal with these issues.

I think the issue presented was her husband told her to stay home and that he would take of the problem, what ever that was.

Let's get all of the facts out and presented before we offer such advise, that should never been presented.

Just by reading the whole presentation here, it seems the pastor is that bad guy. I don't see that way at all. Seem like the person who caused all of this is the son's actions, or problems, which have never been address.

As well, the mother has never come back and presented the whole story, has she? She hasn't presented her husband side, her son's side, or the pastor side.

So here we are saying the pastor has an anger problem, and the devil has influenced him in some way. I say bull. Where is the proof of that. Again, if your a Lutheran, the 8th Commandment applies.
 
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Tangible

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See that little word "if"?

In the OP and follow up posts, the poster (whether she meant to or not) gave me the impression that she or her husband felt that they had something to fear from their pastor.

I expressed doubts about this, but it would be terribly naïve to think that it is not possible for pastors to behave badly, and to say with certainty that this is the case here. To mention this possibility is also (IMO) not a transgression of the 8th commandment. Of course I could be wrong.

I think our desire to discuss this issue perhaps has outstripped the original poster's request for opinions. She has not given us the full story, nor does she need to. It is a private matter.

We can continue to speculate and offer conjecture as to what we think the real problem is or what is really going on, but it won't solve her problem and it won't be productive.
 
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This is what Lutheran Believe, teach, and confess. Its meaning can be used today, just as it was when Luther wrote.

The Eighth Commandment. Part One!

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Over and above our own body, spouse, and temporal
possessions, we have yet another treasure, namely, honor
and good report [the illustrious testimony of an upright
and unsullied name and reputation], with which we cannot
dispense. For it is intolerable to live among men in open
shame and general contempt. Therefore God wishes the
reputation, good name, and upright character of our
neighbor to be taken away or diminished as little as his
money and possessions, that every one may stand in his
integrity before wife, children, servants, and neighbors.
And in the first place, we take the plainest meaning of
this commandment according to the words (Thou shalt not
bear false witness), as pertaining to the public courts
of justice, where a poor innocent man is accused and
oppressed by false witnesses in order to be punished in
his body, property, or honor.

Now, this appears as if it were of little concern to us
at present; but with the Jews it was quite a common and
ordinary matter. For the people were organized under an
excellent and regular government; and where there is
still such a government, instances of this sin will not
be wanting. The cause of it is that where judges,
burgomasters, princes, or others in authority sit in
judgment, things never fail to go according to the course
of the world; namely, men do not like to offend anybody,
flatter, and speak to gain favor, money, prospects, or
friendship; and in consequence a poor man and his cause
must be oppressed, denounced as wrong, and suffer
punishment. And it is a common calamity in the world that
in courts of justice there seldom preside godly men.

For to be a judge requires above all things a godly man,
and not only a godly, but also a wise, modest, yea, a
brave and bold man; likewise, to be a witness requires a
fearless and especially a godly man. For a person who is
to judge all matters rightly and carry them through with
his decision will often offend good friends, relatives,
neighbors, and the rich and powerful, who can greatly
serve or injure him. Therefore he must be quite blind,
have his eyes and ears closed, neither see nor hear, but
go straight forward in everything that comes before him,
and decide accordingly.

Therefore this commandment is given first of all that
every one shall help his neighbor to secure his rights,
and not allow them to be hindered or twisted, but shall
promote and strictly maintain them, no matter whether he
be judge or witness, and let it pertain to whatsoever it
will. And especially is a goal set up here for our
jurists that they be careful to deal truly and uprightly
with every case, allowing right to remain right, and, on
the other hand, not perverting anything [by their tricks
and technical points turning black into white and making
wrong out to be right], nor glossing it over or keeping
silent concerning it, irrespective of a person's money,
possession, honor, or power. This is one part and the
plainest sense of this commandment concerning all that
takes place in court.

Next, it extends very much further, if we are to apply it
to spiritual jurisdiction or administration; here it is a
common occurrence that every one bears false witness
against his neighbor. For wherever there are godly
preachers and Christians, they must bear the sentence
before the world that they are called heretics,
apostates, yea, seditious and desperately wicked
miscreants. Besides the Word of God must suffer in the
most shameful and malicious manner, being persecuted
blasphemed, contradicted, perverted and falsely cited and
interpreted. But let this pass; for it is the way of the
blind world that she condemns and persecutes the truth
and the children of God, and yet esteems it no sin.

In the third place, what concerns us all, this
commandment forbids all sins of the tongue whereby we may
injure or approach too closely to our neighbor. For to
bear false witness is nothing else than a work of the
tongue. Now, whatever is done with the tongue against a
fellow-man God would have prohibited, whether it be false
preachers with their doctrine and blasphemy, false judges
and witnesses with their verdict, or outside of court by
lying and evil-speaking. Here belongs particularly the
detestable, shameful vice of speaking behind a person's
back and slandering, to which the devil spurs us on and
of which there would be much to be said. For it is a
common evil plague that every one prefers hearing evil to
hearing good of his neighbor; and although we ourselves
are so bad that we cannot suffer that any one should say
anything bad about us, but every one would much rather
that all the world should speak of him in terms of gold,
yet we cannot bear that the best is spoken about others.

Therefore, to avoid this vice we should note that no one
is allowed publicly to judge and reprove his neighbor,
although he may see him sin, unless he have a command to
judge and to reprove. For there is a great difference
between these two things, judging sin and knowing sin.
You may indeed know it, but you are not to judge it. I
can indeed see and hear that my neighbor sins, but I have
no command to report it to others. Now, if I rush in,
judging and passing sentence, I fall into a sin which is
greater than his. But if you know it, do nothing else
than turn your ears into a grave and cover it, until you
are appointed to be judge and to punish by virtue of your
office.

Those, then, are called slanderers who are not content
with knowing a thing, but proceed to assume jurisdiction,
and when they know a slight offense of another, carry it
into every corner, and are delighted and tickled that
they can stir up another's displeasure [baseness], as
swine roll themselves in the dirt and root in it with the
snout. This is nothing else than meddling with the
judgment and office of God, and pronouncing sentence and
punishment with the most severe verdict. For no judge can
punish to a higher degree nor go farther than to say: "He
is a thief, a murderer, a traitor," etc. Therefore,
whoever presumes to say the same of his neighbor goes
just as far as the emperor and all governments. For
although you do not wield the sword, you employ your
poisonous tongue to the shame and hurt of your neighbor.

God therefore would have it prohibited that any one speak
evil of another even though he be guilty, and the latter
know it right well; much less if he do not know it, and
have it only from hearsay. But you say: Shall I not say
it if it be the truth? Answer: Why do you not make
accusation to regular judges? Ah, I cannot prove it
publicly, and hence I might be silenced and turned away
in a harsh manner [incur the penalty of a false
accusation]. "Ah, indeed, do you smell the roast?" If you
do not trust yourself to stand before the proper
authorities and to make answer, then hold your tongue.
But if you know it, know it for yourself and not for
another. For if you tell it to others, although it be
true, you will appear as a liar, because you cannot prove
it, and you are, besides acting like a knave. For we
ought never to deprive any one of his honor or good name
unless it be first taken away from him publicly.

False witness, then, is everything which cannot be
properly proved. Therefore, what is not manifest upon
sufficient evidence no one shall make public or declare
for truth; and in short, whatever is secret should be
allowed to remain secret, or, at any rate, should be
secretly reproved, as we shall hear. Therefore, if you
encounter an idle tongue which betrays and slanders some
one, contradict such a one promptly to his face, that he
may blush thus many a one will hold his tongue who else
would bring some poor man into bad repute from which he
would not easily extricate himself. For honor and a good
name are easily taken away, but not easily restored.

Thus you see that it is summarily forbidden to speak any
evil of our neighbor, however the civil government,
preachers, father and mother excepted, on the
understanding that this commandment does not allow evil
to go unpunished. Now, as according to the Fifth
Commandment no one is to be injured in body, and yet
Master Hannes [the executioner] is excepted, who by
virtue of his office does his neighbor no good, but only
evil and harm, and nevertheless does not sin against
God's commandment, because God has on His own account
instituted that office; for He has reserved punishment
for His own good pleasure, as He threatens in the First
Commandment, -- just so also, although no one has a right
in his own person to judge and condemn anybody, yet if
they to whose office it belongs fail to do it, they sin
as well as he who would do so of his own accord, without
such office. For here necessity requires one to speak of
the evil, to prefer charges, to investigate and testify;
and it is not different from the case of a physician who
is sometimes compelled to examine and handle the patient
whom he is to cure in secret parts. Just so governments,
father and mother, brothers and sisters, and other good
friends, are under obligation to each other to reprove
evil wherever it is needful and profitable.

But the true way in this matter would be to observe the
order according to the Gospel, Matt. 18, 15, where Christ
says: If thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and
tell him his fault between thee and him alone. Here you
have a precious and excellent teaching for governing well
the tongue, which is to be carefully observed against
this detestable misuse. Let this, then, be your rule,
that you do not too readily spread evil concerning your
neighbor and slander him to others, but admonish him
privately that he may amend [his life]. Likewise, also,
if some one report to you what this or that one has done,
teach him, too, to go and admonish him personally if he
have seen it himself; but if not, that he hold his
tongue.

The same you can learn also from the daily government of
the household. For when the master of the house sees that
the servant does not do what he ought, he admonishes him
personally. But if he were so foolish as to let the
servant sit at home, and went on the streets to complain
of him to his neighbors, he would no doubt be told: "You
fool, what does that concern us? Why do you not tell it
to him ?" Behold, that would be acting quite brotherly,
so that the evil would be stayed, and your neighbor would
retain his honor. As Christ also says in the same place:
If he hear thee, thou host gained thy brother. Then you
have done a great and excellent work; for do you think it
is a little matter to gain a brother? Let all monks and
holy orders step forth, with all their works melted
together into one mass, and see if they can boast that
they have gained a brother.

Further, Christ teaches: But if he will not hear thee,
then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of
two or three witnesses every word may be established. So
he whom it concerns is always to be treated with
personally, and not to be spoken of without his
knowledge. But if that do not avail, then bring it
publicly before the community, whether before the civil
or the ecclesiastical tribunal. For then you do not stand
alone, but you have those witnesses with you by whom you
can convict the guilty one, relying on whom the judge can
pronounce sentence and punish. This is the right and
regular course for checking and reforming a wicked
person. But if we gossip about another in all corners and
stir the filth, no one will be reformed, and afterwards
when we are to stand up and bear witness, we deny having
said so. Therefore it would serve such tongues right if
their itch for slander were severely punished, as a
warning to others. If you were acting for your neighbor's
reformation or from love of the truth, you would not
sneak about secretly nor shun the day and the light.

All this has been said regarding secret sins. But where
the sin is quite public so that the judge and everybody
know it you can without any sin avoid him and let him go,
because he has brought himself into disgrace, and you may
also publicly testify concerning him. For when a matter
is public in the light of day, there can be no slandering
or false judging or testifying; as, when we now reprove
the Pope with his doctrine, which is publicly set forth
in books and proclaimed in all the world. For where the
sin is public, the reproof also must be public, that
every one may learn to guard against it.
 
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The 8th Commandment and meaning part 2


Thus we have now the sum and general understanding of
this commandment, to wit, that no one do any injury with
the tongue to his neighbor, whether friend or foe, nor
speak evil of him, no matter whether it be true or false,
unless it be done by commandment or for his reformation,
but that every one employ his tongue and make it serve
for the best of every one else, to cover up his
neighbor's sins and infirmities, excuse them, palliate
and garnish them with his own reputation. The chief
reason for this should be the one which Christ alleges in
the Gospel, in which He comprehends all commandments
respecting our neighbor, Matt. 7, 12: Whatsoever ye would
that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.

Even nature teaches the same thing in our own bodies, as
St. Paul says, 1 Cor. 12, 22: Much more, those members of
the body which seem to be more feeble are necessary; and
those members of the body which we think to be less
honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and
our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. No one
covers his face, eyes, nose, and mouth, for they, being
in themselves the most honorable members which we have,
do not require it. But the most infirm members, of which
we are ashamed, we cover with all diligence; hands, eyes,
and the whole body must help to cover and conceal them.
Thus also among ourselves should we adorn whatever
blemishes and infirmities we find in our neighbor, and
serve and help him to promote his honor to the best of
our ability, and, on the other hand, prevent whatever may
be discreditable to him. And it is especially an
excellent and noble virtue for one always to explain
advantageously and put the best construction upon all he
may hear of his neighbor (if it be not notoriously evil),
or at any rate to condone it over and against the
poisonous tongues that are busy wherever they can pry out
and discover something to blame in a neighbor, and that
explain and pervert it in the worst way; as is done now
especially with the precious Word of God and its
preachers.

There are comprehended therefore in this commandment
quite a multitude of good works which please God most
highly, and bring abundant good and blessing, if only the
blind world and the false saints would recognize them.
For there is nothing on or in entire man which can do
both greater and more extensive good or harm in spiritual
and in temporal matters than the tongue, though it is the
least and feeblest member.
 
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We don't know the pastor do we? We don't know the whole story period. I think the whole thing should never have been posted. Seems that what we have here is a failure to communicate, between husband, wife, and son.

I don't believe that all pastors are perfect, and I sure don't believe that all Christians are perfect either.

However, many pastors have been wronged by lay people, and church members who want to be better then their pastors and want to be a control freaks, and control the pastor like a pupit on a string.

Many pastors have quit the ministry just because of this, and many have lost their jobs because the members of the congregations thought more about their church, instead of remembering its not their church to start with, its Christ's church. They forget that the man in that office is there to represent Christ in that Office.

To me it comes down to the lack of respect for the Office of the Keys, as well as the person who has been put into that office. As it was presented here, by a few posters.

Did Christ ever get angry? Have you ever been angry? I know I have, its part of human nature. However, do we really know if the pastor was really full of anger? No we weren't there, and as we have stated its all a matter of hear say, and nothing more.

Maybe that's the reason why so many pastors have good lawyers now days! Surely the Office of the Keys is not as respected as it once was!
 
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DaRev

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Maybe that's the reason why so many pastors have good lawyers now days! Surely the Office of the Keys is not as respected as it once was!

Das ist gewiblich wahr!!


If I remember (without going back to the OP), the point of this thread was the use of the term "ecclesiastical authority" and the context in which it was used. We don't need to know about the son's behavioral problem or the husband's action. What would be a great help is if the OP would elaborate a bit on her position in the ministry of her congregation. That might help clarify the context of the use of that term.
 
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