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Ecclisiastic Authority?

QuiltAngel

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I don't think thats going to happen! Seems like there is no communication here either. She seems to have disappeared into cyber space!

TCat has 1600 posts in 3 years. I don't think she has totally disappeared. I am thinking she received an answer that was helpful. Some members do have busy lives so don't post as often as others of us. It is my hope and prayer that she has taken the replies here and returned to her Pastor to discuss the issue.

There are times when I wonder why people continue posting and debating an OP when the OP seems to have what they need and are no longer posting on that thread.

Sometimes a person, even a Pastor, will use a term or phrase we do not understand and my not explain the meaning very well. That is what I was getting from her posts. She was wondering what Ecclesiastic Authority is. In asking the question, she gave a brief background to the question.


I am just wondering, are you a Pastor Donsfreespirit?
 
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TCat

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Ok, a little more detail, but first let me clarify something. My pastor's are not bad guys, sinners and saints and I would not suggest otherwise. That we are sideways does not make them bad in anyway, likewise I hope they hold the same view about me and my family.

Several months ago my 16 yr old son texted me that he'd had sex w/ his gf. I was shocked and dismayed. I knew they were overly friendly as in to much PDA but I did not realize that they had overstepped the bounds and sinned in this manner.
My husband and I talked about it, he wanted to get condoms for our son right away and then tell him not to have sex. I did not want to condone the sin in anyway and we were stuck as to how to handle the situation.
I called my pastor for advice, he has two teenaged sons. His words to me on the phone that morning were "If your son has had sex with his gf, his world is going to come crashing down on him!" "I'll talk to both the kids at school"
Both children attended our Lutheran High School. Pastor called me 2 hours later said
"I am withdrawing your financial support from school, and bringing your son home this morning!" "He has coerced gf into sex, twice at your home and once on church property"
An hour later my pastor, the assoc. pastor and youth minister dropped my son off at my home, pastor said "this boy needs disicpline, he should go into the army" "we're having a discipline meeting at church tonight"
I was stunned, yes my son had been blowing off his school work all semester, getting poor grades by not doing his homework so I understand the school part of it, even if I did not like it. But I was coerced into sex as a child, in otherwards molested, and I KNOW that my son did not rape, violate, force or harm his gf. Pastor knows my backround so to use that terminology was an arrow to my heart and triggered alot of fear and anger.
My husband saw my anger and fear and was very upset that pastor was angry. He felt that he was going to the meeting to protect our son and our family name if they choose to place all the blame on our son. The meeting, as my husband explained to me later was ok. First the gf denied having sex at all to her family, even though she had told pastor the truth earlier then after being chastised for lying said that yes they had sex. Both pastors were angry that I was not at the meeting even after my husband explained that he asked me to stay home. The Assoc. pastor more that our senior pastor.
The next day I spent a lot of time in prayer not wanting to be angry or bitter or frustrated about any of this and the vs. that came to my mind over and over was "If your brother has something against you, go and be reconcilced...I left a message on pastors office phone to pls call me when convienent so that we might talk. His secretary called me later in the day and said he'd be around til 6:00 at church. I text his cell and asked him to meet me for a few minutes at 6:00 if possible as I would be at church then too.
I then called my ministry leader to ask her to hold me accountable and was I doing the right thing in trying to make amends before there were any problems. She told me to leave pastor alone as he was busy. I did.
That night I went to church preparing to lead my small group and was taken aside by my ministry leader and told that I was out of leadership on pastors orders because I failed to attend the meeting.
Pastor called me the next morning, said he understood my not coming to the meeting but that it could not wait til I was "emotionally stable" to hold such meeting and that he had nothing to do with my being out of the ministry. I left a message for my assoc. pastor apologizing for not attending the meeting and asking him to call if he wanted to talk about it. He never did.
I then spent weeks in prayer, trying to figure out where I'd sinned what I'd done wrong to be asked to leave a ministry that I loved so much and was so passionate about. Missing people who were coming to know the Lord and seeing Him at work in their hurts and lives.
I finally called both pastors and the youth leader at home to ask their forgiveness for whatever it was that I had done. Sr. Pastor told me I had not sinned against him and that he had nothing to do with that ministry. Assoc. Pastor met with me and the ministry leader and told me that it was not about missing the meeting but that I had issues I needed to deal with. He refused to clarify what he meant so I am still at a loss. My ministry leader said it was because I had harrassed our Sr. pastor after she told me to leave him alone. I did not talk to him at all but she refuses to believe that. And both of them are adement that our Sr. Pastor is to valuable and important to our church to be bothered by me. I was given strict orders not to talk to him again!
Ok, I know doesn't make sense does it. 3 months went by and I finally got to talk to the ministry leader, she apologized for not backing me up as a team member but insisted once again that the mandate to step out of leadership was not her call, it had come from the pastors.
I spoke to our Assoc. Pastor and he make it clear it wasn't his call to ask me out but stated that the church leaders, that is both pastors and my ministry leader have been having discussions about those underlings in leadership and it was decided that since I once sought marrige counseling last year, and my son was sinning that I needed to be out of leadership. Oh and he said he'd heard that I gossiped about a friend 6 months ago.
WHAT??? News to me but ok. That my not coming to the meeting was breaking ecclisastical authoity but that was only a small part of it.

I know this is long but you asked for it so...
 
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TCat

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The end result of all of this garbage is that I am struggling to go to church each week. I love my church family and simply want to serve them and worship with them. My DH and I are heavily involved in Sunday School, he in men's ministry and I in CR and choir.
I am working on forgiveness, trying to just let it go, forget that Pastor called my son a molestor and trying to get past the hurt of the situation. BTW no one thinks my son is a molestor, it was just something said to hurt me in the heat of the moment. But I am not supposed to talk to Pastor so I am leaving it alone, although it is a bitter pill to swallow.
I just wanted to know what the heck this authority thing was, no I see it was just another excuse to toss out as in reality I have not sinned against anyone in this situation.
It was assumed that I was angry and refused to attend the meeting out of spite and anger. I WAS angry but did not attend at my husbands request.
I am asking God now if I should stay or go to another church. My head says leave, my heart says stay. God is not saying anything, maybe I should just be still. But it hurts to hear messages from the pulpit proclaiming God's grace and love, His value of people and how our job as Christians is to love and serve one another. And know that my value at church is that of a leper.
A co-leader friend of mine, a much wiser, older woman has come along side me in this and is also baffled, she attended the meeting with my Assoc Pastor and mininsty leader and said she also does not understand the animosity and lack of love and grace. That is until she was chastised for loving me thru all of this, and told by our Sr. Pastor that he questions her judgement in gossiping with me over all of this.
I did not think crying out our pain and seeking comfort and aid with a fellow believer was gossip but I guess it is.
 
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porterross

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:( Wow, TCat. You've had a rough go of it and I'm sorry that you've been treated so badly and are hurting so much.

IMO, your pastors handled the situation with your son very badly and I would have been furious if that had been done to, or those things said about, my child. Based on the quotes you've shared here, it seems there are those in that church who honestly believe your son and GF are the first two Lutheran teens to EVER have sex outside of marriage. Good grief!

How you could ever think about going back to that church astounds me, but maybe I'm not reading things as clearly as others will. :sorry:
 
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TCat

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Thanks porterross for the afirmation. It just seems so surreal, I know that my pastor's are not bad guys, I know that they have hearts for God and His people. This has to be Satan stirring up a lot of trouble in a very active, vibrant church fighting for the Kingdom.
In spite of all the mess, I do love this church, I love my fellow worshippers and I love serving there. I am just struggling to separate the "man from the message" during the sermons at church. I know the Word is being preached in Truth, but I have lately had such bad experiences with the man it's tough to listen and not get twisted up inside. Last week I ducked out of both sermons during the two services and found that my heart was in much better shape on Sunday afternoon rather than being squeezed dry all day.
My husband says all churches are the same, the polotics don't change no matter what church we choose to attend. His advice, just lay low, love quietly and forget about the pastors all together.
Oh, BTW the church discipline that both my son and his gf recieved is that they are not allowed onto church property without a parent at all times. Nothing about dealing with the sin, loving the sinner, ministering to either kid. Just DON'T come to church alone.
 
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JTornado1

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If the people in that church treated me and my family that way, I would have left a long time ago. There is no excuse for accusing your kid of being a molester, accusing you of gossiping, denying you access to the senior pastor, etc. I have no need of their version of "ecclesiatic authority." I would get out of that toxic environment and find another church, but that's me.
 
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QuiltAngel

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TCat
I would recommend that you and your husband request a meeting with both Pastors and whoever else to get this discussed and get away from the "he said, she said" stuff that seems to be going on. If that doesn't work, see if you can find someone to mediate. If after all of that, the situation can not be resolved, then I would say you would be better off transferring to another church.

It is not the same at all churches. You will find some very compassionate people at others churches. I know that in the past that if a person in certain positions were having personal problems they were expected to step down from that position. I did not know that was being done anywhere now.

Also, do you know if your son and gf has repented and sought forgiveness during a private confession and absolution? It may be that they have not. If they have, wow.

By treating the kids this way, there is the risk that you are turning them away from the church entirely. It is this kind of thing that I have heard over and over why people have nothing to do with churches. Let them know that not all are like that.

Keeping you and your family as well as the Pastors in my prayers.
 
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BoC

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And interesting theme is running through this thread and through the LCMS synod suit against the church in CA. That is blaming another party for an unCHristitan action and not taking responsibility for that same action. What I'm refering to is the laity laying fault at the pastors feet or the pastor laying fault on the laity. I've seen pastors complain that members of the congregation have made very unChristian accusations towards the pastors and treated them badly or conversly the pastor has gone over an above his call and gone into areas that are not his responsibility or business. Even to the extent of exercising false authority over a situation.

Whose resposibility is or was it to achieve Christian harmony with each other?
 
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TCat

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Thanks QuiltAngel, actually after my son was excused from his Lutheran High School, because he was there on scholarship this year, we put him in a quasimilitary style school. Thank God he is thriving. loving the environment, the discipline, and amazingly enough started a Bible study with fellow cadets. He is actually surrounded by Christian men who are ministering to him daily.
What my son told me he learned from this stuff with our church is that to confess your sins to anyone is ludicrous. He said he felt guilty about the sex and that is why he told me, not realizing that the world was going to "come crashing down on him" for confessing. I learned to keep my "laundry" private and not ask or reveal to much in church especailly leadership.

I understand what you are saying about people sometimes being involved in ministry and having to many personal issues needing to step down for a while. I agree that is often a good idea. If someone, anyone had some concerns and had come and talked to me, expressed concerns about my personal life, warned me about some issues I would have understood.
We have had to ask others to step down from leadership on occasion to work on some things or because they needed a break. There are clear guidlines as to how this is done within the leadership setting, and I have been involved in those dealing before.

In my case I was out without warning, then given all kinds of excuses, buck passing and excuse me but, lies. This was not discipline but punishment, but of what I still am not sure. I know the minisrty leader laughs about being a control freak and that she and our Sr. Pastor joke about who has the most problems with control but WOW> Then, at church, fellow leaders and participants have approached me over and over asking what I did to no longer be a leader, I answer that I do not know, they can ask the ministry leader.
Ahhh bitterness is so ugly...
 
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DaRev

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My advice...

Leave that church. It's poisonous. I find the behavior of the pastors and so-called ministry leader inexcusible. Who has any authority to tell you that you cannot speak to your pastor? And what kind of pastor would refuse to speak with you and offer Christian counselling in such matters. I am appalled at what I am hearing about this.
 
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TCat

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Thanks Rev I think that I will continue to pray about this, finish my service with a course I am teaching, get thru Easter services, I am commited to the choir, and then leave.
All of your support and advice have helped me see more clearly what has been difficult to see from the inside. I knew something was wrong but kept thinking that somewhere I was missing something, somewhere I must be at fault, even thinking that I have let God down for being yanked from leadership. Maybe not...I continue ot pray for the church and it's leadership but as has been stated, it is toxic.
 
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TCat

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BoC, it is ever my desire to be in harmony and unity with my church and it's pastors.
This issue that I am referring to occured months ago, I have been in prayer and been working hard on forgiveness and grace for the last 5 months about it.
I think my pastors are wrong, and I agree I must have done something somewhere to have caused some of the problem. But I have tried to talk to both the Assoc Pastor and the ministry leader and both of them respond negatively and with accusation or ignorace. I am so tired of all of this and tired of the mess in trying to deal with it all. I have tried to honor their request to not bother the Sr. Pastor and he certainly has made to move to try to talk to me
 
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QuiltAngel

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Thanks Rev I think that I will continue to pray about this, finish my service with a course I am teaching, get thru Easter services, I am commited to the choir, and then leave.
All of your support and advice have helped me see more clearly what has been difficult to see from the inside. I knew something was wrong but kept thinking that somewhere I was missing something, somewhere I must be at fault, even thinking that I have let God down for being yanked from leadership. Maybe not...I continue ot pray for the church and it's leadership but as has been stated, it is toxic.

Glad we could help. It sounds like you have been in a tough situation for a while now and did everything you could to resolve it. Sometimes a person needs to step away from a situation that is going nowhere.

Let us know how things go when looking for another church. I hope and pray that things work out for your family.
 
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Tangible

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Wow. I'm so sorry all this happened. I believe you are right in thinking that there is some prowling and seeking to devour going on in all this.

My family has been through a lot this past year, and I don't know what I would have done if my pastors hadn't been there for us, and continue to do so.

I'm so glad your son has not turned his back on God through all this. Please make sure the bible studies and Christian friends he is making at his new school do not poison him against sacramental, Confessional Christianity.

I'm praying for you and your family and your church, TCat.
 
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BoC

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BoC, it is ever my desire to be in harmony and unity with my church and it's pastors.
This issue that I am referring to occured months ago, I have been in prayer and been working hard on forgiveness and grace for the last 5 months about it.
I think my pastors are wrong, and I agree I must have done something somewhere to have caused some of the problem. But I have tried to talk to both the Assoc Pastor and the ministry leader and both of them respond negatively and with accusation or ignorance. I am so tired of all of this and tired of the mess in trying to deal with it all. I have tried to honor their request to not bother the Sr. Pastor and he certainly has made to move to try to talk to me
Sorry if I sounded like I was pointing blame. I didn't mean that in my post. As I said I am seeing both in this thread and the other thread, about the LCMS lawsuit, where DaRev and Donsfreespirit talk about who is to blame with problems in congregations. I also see the same thing here. Either blames the other because of some carnal problem. Again I'll say, how do these situations arise? Is it because neither, or one party, is taking the truly Christian, servant approach?
Maybe I'm not making myself clear.
 
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