Ebionites

[GeratTzedek]

References to the Ebionties have come up before in our discussions of the One Law movement. However, with Michael's various posts regarding his desire for a "Judeo-Christian" forum and icon, I think it is appropriate to discuss the Ebionite movement in more detail, since Michael has appropriately made it clear that he is NOT Messianic nor Christian.

So far as history is concerned, it is important not to confuse the Ebionites with the Nazoreans. While the Ebionites were gentiles which preached that gentiles of Yeshua-faith needed to observe Torah, the Nazoreans appear to have been Jewish communities of Yeshua-faith, largely uninterested in getting gentiles to observe Torah. I say "appear" because little is actually known about the Netzarim -- the early Church confused these two groups, and much of what the Church stated about the Netzarim is actually about the Ebionites. But the distinction is made because of the earliest reference made in Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho (c. 140). Justin distinguishes between Jewish Christians who observe Mosaid Law but do not require its observance of others, and those who believe the Mosaic Law to be obligatory on all. (btw) this would tend to negate Michael's idea that he is Judeo-Christian)

The Ebionites are not only distinctive in that they believe in a UNIVERSAL following of Mosaic law (rather than only the Jews), and reject utterly Paul's teachings. In fact, they call Paul an j"apostate of the Law", and reject all of his writings.

Of course, we know from Michael that they consider Jesus to have been purely human, and not at all divine. Also rejected are his pre-existence, virgin birth, atoning death, and resurrection. Of the books of the Newer Testament, they accept ONLY a Hebrew translation of the book of Matthew (actually a slightly modified Aramaic translation, written in Hebrew characters), sometimes called the Ebionite gospel.

The word Evyonim in Hebrew means "Poor Ones," referring to spiritual as well as physical poverty, and was trendy at that time among some pious Jewish circles.

Later in history, a more gnostic form of the Ebionites developed as well.

 

[shlomoh]

Nazarenes denotes the group of people who were immediate disciples of Jesus. The group known as nazarenes may have predated Jesus. The name "nazarene" may have one of several possible meanings.
The Ebionites were a Jewish group of believers which probably evolved out of the Nazarene group headed by James, brother of Jesus.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Nazarenes denotes the group of people who were immediate disciples of Jesus. The group known as nazarenes may have predated Jesus. The name "nazarene" may have one of several possible meanings.
The Ebionites were a Jewish group of believers which probably evolved out of the Nazarene group headed by James, brother of Jesus.

You are mistaken Shlo. Do a little research, and you will find out that the Ebionites were gentile groups that followed Mosaic law. They may have thought of themselves as Israel, but they were not Jews.

 

[Henaynei]

You are mistaken Shlo. Do a little research, and you will find out that the Ebionites were gentile groups that followed Mosaic law. They may have thought of themselves as Israel, but they were not Jews.

could you provide some of your reference sources so folks can read for themselves?

 

[GeratTzedek]

could you provide some of your reference sources so folks can read for themselves?

You don't know how to google?

First of all, these are not "my" references. I studied church history for years, especially the early church. I actually read *books.* (gasp!) However, I doubt if I recommended them, you would get them.

If you want to learn more about modern Ebionite groups with folks like Michael, the best site is:
www.ebionite.com

Sites regarding the history of the Ebionites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=22&letter=E (btw this artical refers to the ebionites as judeo-christians; this may have been where michael picked up the term)

http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/ebionites.php
But it was not until after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the founding of Aelia Capitolina by Hadrian, in 134, that Jewish Christianity became a distinct school, gradually becoming more and more heretical till it separated into the two sects of Ebionites proper and Nazarenes. The latter still held to Paul as an apostle, and, while they kept the law themselves, did not demand its observance of the Gentile Christians. The former held the observance of the law to be obligatory upon all Christians alike, and rejected Paul as an apostate.

http://www.compassionatespirit.com/ebionites-article.htm

According to Epiphanius, they rejected orthodox Christian beliefs about the divinity of Jesus, were vegetarians, opposed animal sacrifice, and rejected certain texts in the Jewish scriptures (most especially, those pertaining to animal sacrifice). They were loyal to the Mosaic law, but had an idiosyncratic view of that law. They called themselves Ebionites (based on ebionim, "the poor") because, they said, at the time of the apostles they gave all their possessions to the early church (Acts 4:32-35). The Ebionites claimed to have the biological relatives of Jesus among their own number, described by ancient writers as the "desposynoi" ("those who belong to the master").​

http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=4128
They denied the Divinity and the virginal birth of Christ; they clung to the observance of the Jewish Law ; they regarded St. Paul as an apostate, and used only a Gospel according to St. Matthew (Adv. Haer., I, xxvi, 2; III, xxi, 2; IV, xxxiii, 4; V, i, 3). Their doctrines are similarly described by Hippolytus (Philos., VIII, xxii, X, xviii) and Tertullian (De carne Chr., xiv, 18), but their observance of the Law seems no longer so prominent a feature of their system as in the account given by Irenaeus. Origen is the first (C. Cels., V, lxi) to mark a distinction between two classes of Ebionites, a distinction which Eusebius also gives (Hist. Eccl., III, xxvii). Some Ebionites accept, but others reject, the virginal birth of Christ, though all reject His pre-existence and His Divinity. Those who accepted the virginal birth seem to have had more exalted views concerning Christ and, besides observing the Sabbath, to have kept the Sunday as a memorial of His Resurrection. The milder sort of Ebionites were probably fewer and less important than their stricter brethren, because the denial of the virgin birth was commonly attributed to all. ( Origen, Hom. in Luc., xvii) St. Epiphanius calls the more heretical section Ebionites, and the more Catholic-minded, Nazarenes.​

 

[Steve Petersen]

You are mistaken Shlo. Do a little research, and you will find out that the Ebionites were gentile groups that followed Mosaic law. They may have thought of themselves as Israel, but they were not Jews.

The Ebionites (Greek: Ἐβιωναῖοι Ebionaioi from Hebrew; אביונים, Ebyonim, "the Poor Ones") were an early Jewish Christian sect that lived in and around Judea and Palestine from the 1st to the 4th century.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites

The Dictionary of Judaism in the Biblical Period by Neusner and Green says the Ebionites were Jewish Christians.

 

[GeratTzedek]

The Ebionites (Greek: Ἐβιωναῖοι Ebionaioi from Hebrew; אביונים, Ebyonim, "the Poor Ones") were an early Jewish Christian sect that lived in and around Judea and Palestine from the 1st to the 4th century.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites

The Dictionary of Judaism in the Biblical Period by Neusner and Green says the Ebionites were Jewish Christians.

And what does "Jewish Christians" mean? That they were Jews who were Christian? Or that they were Christians who were Jewish in observance? If you read further, you find that it is in fact the latter, and not the former. The very fact that they insisted that gentiles observe Mosaic law indicates they were gentiles, or partly gentiles. Had they been entirely made up of Jews, such a doctrine would have existed.

It was the Netzarim which were the Jews who were also of Yeshua faith. In the earliest days, it is possible these were one in the same group. However, it is obvious that if they were not split from the beginning, they were certainly split later on.

 

[Wags]

You don't know how to google?

First of all, these are not "my" references. I studied church history for years, especially the early church. I actually read *books.* (gasp!) However, I doubt if I recommended them, you would get them.

You don't know how to be nice?

You really should have more respect for your elders.

 

[simchat_torah]

Ger,

Even your own sources state that the Ebionites were a strictly Jewish sect:

Most patristic sources portray the Ebionites as traditional yet ascetic Jews, who zealously followed the Law of Moses, revered Jerusalem as the holiest city,[23] and restricted table fellowship only to Gentiles who converted to Judaism.[22]

and if you read early Christian History, you'd know that Justin Martyr clearly stated that the Ebionites were limited to Jews.

And what does "Jewish Christians" mean? That they were Jews who were Christian?

Well, if you read further down, in the very sources you provide, you will find the very answer to your question. It means strictly Jews who believed in Jesus as the Messiah, thus the term Jewish Christians. The Ebionites did not even associate with Gentiles at a dinner table.

The very fact that they insisted that gentiles observe Mosaic law indicates they were gentiles, or partly gentiles.

Quite wrong. REad on in the paper that you're quoting from. It continues on to say the Ebionites required formal conversion to Judaism for any Gentile who wanted to gain entry into their sect.

Fact: Ebionites were a strictly Jewish sect.

MTAA is not an Ebionite. He is a Sacred Namer.

 

[simchat_torah]

Reading through the rest of the sources you provided, and not just relying upon the most thorough of the bunch (the wiki entry) we find the following:

Jewish Encyclopedia: Makes no mention of Gentiles whatsoever.

EarlyChurch.org: states, "The Jews who accept Christ are called Ebionites."

Compassionate Spirit: states, "They were one of several "Jewish Christian" groups, early followers of Jesus who considered themselves Jews." It too makes not one mention of Gentiles in the entire article.

Catholic.org's Encyclopedia: Makes absolutely no mention of Gentiles whatsoever. In fact, the only reference to who was a part of the Ebionites is referenced in Typho's "Conversation with a Jew".

Finally, if we turn to Christian History, Origen plainly states that Ebionites were composed entirely of Jews and only Jews.

Sorry Ger, but you're wrong on this one.

 

[shlomoh]

The Ebionites (Greek: Ἐβιωναῖοι Ebionaioi from Hebrew; אביונים, Ebyonim, "the Poor Ones") were an early Jewish Christian sect that lived in and around Judea and Palestine from the 1st to the 4th century.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites

The Dictionary of Judaism in the Biblical Period by Neusner and Green says the Ebionites were Jewish Christians.

Everything I have ever read about Ebionites indicates they were Jewish. If someone claimed they were gentile I would be curious to know how and why they observed Mosaic law.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Everything I have ever read about Ebionites indicates they were Jewish. If someone claimed they were gentile I would be curious to know how and why they observed Mosaic law.

Weeeell, shlo, that's the whole point about the Ebionites -- they taught the UNIVERSALITY of Mosaic law. And all sources agree on that. Now I ask you, if the Ebionite community were entirely Jewish, why would they have a doctrine like that? Do you think they held this doctrine, and then just sat back while gentiles went to the Christian Church for conversion? This sect proselytized gentiles into the Judaic lifestyle, indeed considered it salvicatory. That is precisely WHY the orthodox Church considered them heretical.

You have to consider: the Christian gospel, whatever it may be, is for the whole world. If a sect believes that gospel includes conversion to Judaic lifestyle, acceptance into Israel, and observance of all the mitzvot, there would be no seperation between Israel and the goyim... there would in that ideal world be no goyim!
THAT is anti-thetical to Messianic Judaism.

And this forum is FILLED with gentiles who observe Mosaic law. They are part of what is called the "One Law" movement. So... ask away!

There are also gentiles within the MJ community who, while they do not feel obligated to observe mitzvot, do so because they are part of a Jewish community. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. I believe the only standard the MJ Rabbinical Council lays upon gentile members of the UMJC congregations is regarding the eating of kosher certified meats, arguing that even the Noachide laws deal with cruelty to animals, that the prohibition of ingesting blood is universal.

 

[simchat_torah]

lol, just like always, Ger ignores my posts

 

[GeratTzedek]

simchat:

sigh* I knew things were going to get too complicated. Things changed as history developed. First of all, in the beginning, during the time of the apostles, all these terms, Netzarim, Essenes, Ebyonim, etc, were being flung around, and there were scads of different groups. Anyone who wants to claim that during these years there were organized movements has only done superficial reading. They were more like schools of thought that overlapped among many different groups.

Later in time, these schools did begin to differentiate out from the Church, and from each other. However, it is difficult at best to sort out the truth, because the Church fathers and other sources are little better than people today -- they tended to put all the "others" in one basket and treat them as if they were the same.

Most of the websites are giving you only an overview, and I can't recreate for you all the books I've read -- many of which were original source documents. I don't claim to be a historian or an expert, but I probably know more than most of the people writing those websites. What am I supposed to say to you? It's a matter of reading all the documents and WEIGHING them, which is something I've done.

I can give you this argument: it makes no sense for a group to have a doctrine that gentiles need to observe mosaic law if there are no gentiles within that community. Simply put, while the Ebionites BEGAN as a Jewish group (I believe they are the ones referred to in Acts 15 which insisted gentiles had to be circumcised for salvation) they PROSELYTIZED... and did not remain Jewish.

The Netzarim, on the other hand, who were also Jews, did not believe gentiles had to be observant, and therefore did not proselytize, and therefore remained Jewish communities.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Simchat:

Yes, it is obvious he is into the sacred namer stuff. It is obvious he is into a LOT of strange stuff. He appears to be attracted to esoteric teachings.

What did I ignore that you thought was important?

I ALWAYS ignore you????? now you hoit my feewings. Well, you are obviously attention depraved. I shall have to tickle you forthwith.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Deleted post in respect to Post #29, and being reported by a poster for the link. Peace.

Google Results 1 - 10 of about 72,100 for what are Ebionites

John 4:22 ye are worshipping what ye have not perceived; we are worshipping what we have perceived, that the Salvation out-of the Jews/Judeans/ioudaiwn <2453> is;

 

[GeratTzedek]

I would tend to agree.
I found this article interesting and I pray Orthodox Jews will not take offense of this being an "anti-Jewish" site as it specifically examines the word used for "Jew" in the Bible, mainly the GNT.
Can you give me your take on ,and as for myself, I do not consider myself either Jew or Gentile but I do want to learn more about the YHWH of the Bible? Shalom.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jew.htm

A Jew or Judean is one who is a resident of Judea regardless of his religion, race, or nationality. Every resident of Palestine is a "Jew" whereas the so-called Jews living abroad are not Jews at all, neither by residence, nor by birth, nor by religion. This is confirmed by the Bible in the Old and New Testaments, Jewish historians such as Josephus, Professor of Medieval Jewish History at Tel Aviv University, A. N. Poliak in his book Khazaria (1944, 1951); American historian Professor Dunlop of Columbia University in his article on the Khazars in the Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971); Noam Chomsky in his book, Fateful Triangle, Arthur Koestler in his masterpiece, The Thirteenth Tribe; Professor Heinrich H. Graetz in his History of the Jews, p. 141 (1891-98); Soviet archaeologist M. I. Artamonov in Istoria Khazar, Benjamin Freedman in Facts are Facts, Chief Rabbi of the United States, the late Steven S. Wise, the Message of William Branham the Prophet of Malachi 4:5-6 and Revelation 10:7, every Jewish and all Gentile encyclopaedias affirm that barely any so-called Jew is an Israelite let alone Semitic. Note also that Judaism is Pharisaism based on the Talmud, which is the antithesis of pre-exilic Yahweh Torah or Yahwism, the Law and the Prophets, and accursed of God in Matthew 15:1-9, and Moses in Deuteronomy 5:22; 12:32).

Lamb, this is the last forum where you want to come with your nonsense that you are neither Jew nor gentile or calling Jews "Judeans," or posting links to anti-semitic websites. According to what you just posted, a Palestinian is a Jew. Rubbish. Go away.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I came to that conclusion months ago. LLOJ is on my ignore list.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Lamb, this is the last forum where you want to come with your nonsense that you are neither Jew nor gentile or calling Jews "Judeans," or posting links to anti-semitic websites. According to what you just posted, a Palestinian is a Jew. Rubbish. Go away.

Hi. I would like to hear from an Orthodox Jew on this. And exactly how is that particular article "anti-semitic"?
It gave the proper definition of the greek word for "jew" in the GNT.
[Btw, are you the one who reported me for posting the link?]

John 7:1 And was walking, the Jesus, after these-things, in the Galilee, for not He desired in the Judea/ioudaia <2449>to be walking, that sought Him, the Judeans/ioudaioi <2453>, to kill,

Luke 21:21 then those in the Judea/ioudaia <2449>, let them be fleeing into the mountains; and those in midst of her, let them be out-coming; and those in the countries, no let them be into-coming into to her;

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I came to that conclusion months ago. LLOJ is on my ignore list.

Ironic that I have never ever been called "anti-semitic" by Orthodox Jews, or Muslims, just Messianics. I want to hear from Orthodox Jews on it since that is the main reason I even came to this board.
If an Orthodox Jew tells me it is inapproriate, I will delete it pronto. Shalom.