Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

[~Anastasia~]

The phrase continually used was o m g. It wasn't being used in connection to thanking God for anything.
The people this is concerning are members of a non mainstream christian denomination.
My theory is, the denomination follows the written code/ not the Holy Spirit(rom7:6)

But to continue this would be to go beyond the remit of what the thread concerns

I see ...

Well, it's just my habit that I tend to consider denominations based on their theology, but yes, it does creep into behavior in some cases.

If the person is very young, by the way, I do see WAY too much of that expression being used. There seems to be, sometimes, some disconnect because of the so-common use in texting, etc.

Not that I'm defending it. It bothers me too, to hear it. But the truth is, people do all sorts of things that bother me, and I've generally found it's best that it's not my place to focus on those, usually. I think that's one of my particular crosses.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I see ...

Well, it's just my habit that I tend to consider denominations based on their theology, but yes, it does creep into behavior in some cases.

If the person is very young, by the way, I do see WAY too much of that expression being used. There seems to be, sometimes, some disconnect because of the so-common use in texting, etc.

Not that I'm defending it. It bothers me too, to hear it. But the truth is, people do all sorts of things that bother me, and I've generally found it's best that it's not my place to focus on those, usually. I think that's one of my particular crosses.

In over fifty years of going to various denominational churches, I had never previously come across anyone laughing, almost hysterically as they repeatedly used that phrase, only by people using it who were not members of a mainstream denomination. To me that was an eye opener, it said a lot

 

[stuart lawrence]

And I agree that heartfelt conviction should be our guide, and that should be above everything. Essentially, I actually agree I think with all you've said in the topic, except that it does seem that we don't always have a full revelation from the very beginning.

But, I don't know what's in anyone else's heart. So I don't know if they haven't gotten the revelation, or if they are justifying some behavior because they want or think they need to, or they've seared their conscience, or they are uncomfortable but ignoring that discomfort for now, or some other possible situation.

I only know myself.

I'll share something with you then. I'm not sure I can explain this, but it was very profound for me.

Don't get me wrong - I'm very blessed. My basic needs are met, I have a couple of family members nearby, I love my parish community, I enjoy painting and growing things and I have what I need to be able to do that, I have a most awesome little cat - in short I could go on, but I wanted to preface what I'm about to share by saying I AM very blessed.

But I know lots of people who live in nice houses, who get to take vacations and go on cruises, who buy their clothes new, who don't view tires wearing out as a major financial crisis. And so on.

When I was baptized, an understanding settled on me over the first few days. I saw that I had a sort of sense of deprivation, because my situation wasn't comparable to the people around me.

I'm very grieved by my whole former mindset now, but I realized quite suddenly that my whole life was colored by covetousness. Not that I went around drooling over and wishing for what others had, but I didn't truly rejoice for their blessings and they often only made me aware of my lack.

And it broke my heart that it was such a pervasive thing in my life. It was like covetousness was the very air I breathed, and so I was living in sin, in a way, in violation of one of the Ten Commandments, no less.

A week before I was baptized, that thought would have been impossible for me to recognize, I think.

That was a while back, and thank God, I now recognize how deeply blessed I am, and I can certainly rejoice for whatever someone else has. My brother and his fiancée completed an Ironman together while I was dealing with cancer. That's probably the biggest gap between me and someone else to intrude in my life recently, and thankfully - I am nothing but proud of him and happy for them! can equally happy for whatever good happens to whoever else, without that twinge of hurt wishing in even a small way it could be me, glory to God. I couldn't have changed that on my own.

But my real point is that to me, it was a HUGE SIN, because it permeated my life, and yet I was blind to it shortly before. And I know the Ten Commandments, and have been seeking God most of my life, many years. And I knew what coveting was - directly desiring to have something belonging to someone else - and was careful not to let myself think that way.

But I learned that just the heart behind it was also covetousness, or even more so than simple acts of coveting, which I had been careful to avoid. Instead I became covetousness, without realizing it. That generated some deep repentance. And thank God, He changed me as a result.

This wasn't easy to explain, because it's more an internal realization and not a direct act or even thought, but I hope it made sense.

And I think God's law was already written on my heart, of course - yet I honestly did not recognize how I was violating that. I chose "violate" purposely, rather than "break" ... I would also say that I had previously kept the letter of that law pretty well, but the spirit had apparently eluded me.

I see where you are coming from now. And yes, strictly speaking what you mention is coveting. And such as you describe does not always immediately convict us the moment we become Christians. Easy to see why Paul termed the TC as the letter that kills isn't it! In that circumstance, though you officially break the TC I would say it is simply being part of a work in progress.

But would you consider stealing, or adultery the same? I wouldn't. In those circumstances I would say you should immediately know. The problem with having strict theological beliefs is, in practice they can be too narrow definitions if you see what I mean. Spiritual discernment must be allowed for in situations.
In my view, the first and Last of the TC are probable the hardest to follow.
On the flipside of what you wrote:
When I was young I used to wonder why. Thou shalt not covet was one of the TC. It didn't seem anywhere near as important as the rest. I understood murder, adultery, theft etc were very important to avoid. But thou shalt not covet seemed trivial compared to them. But at the time I thought that commandment only referred to material goods, ie a persons house or car.
But, though, when I reached puberty I still held that view, I was convicted impure thoughts were sin. So, though I had no true understanding of the meaning of the tenth commandment simply by reading it in my bible, I did understand in my heart and mind what obedience to that commandment entailed.
In my view, you certainly are a true Christian.

 

[~Anastasia~]

In over fifty years of going to various denominational churches, I had never previously come across anyone laughing, almost hysterically as they repeatedly used that phrase, only by people using it who were not members of a mainstream denomination. To me that was an eye opener, it said a lot

When I try to imagine what you describe, I am reminded of a parody of a movie scene, maybe, of teenage girls. It CAN BE something of a speech mannerism for some people.

I remember when I was about 14, I had picked up the habit of using the word "like" three or four times in every sentence. Thankfully, some friends were "kind" enough to mock me continually until I was able to focus on that mannerism, and stop it. It took a week or two to completely eradicate, and a 14-year-old girl being mocked is in a highly motivated state, lol.

That still wouldn't excuse it. And maybe that's not the case of the person you describe.

If it happens IN Church (but didn't you mention elsewhere it was outside?), but if no one in a Church says anything, and it's been some time, I'd wonder about that. And I'm still imagining a teen girl with a speech mannerism.

But if it happens only outside of Church, it's not a speech mannerism.

I do see your point of view. I've never seen such a thing being accepted in a Church setting.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I see where you are coming from now. And yes, strictly speaking what you mention is coveting. And such as you describe does not always immediately convict us the moment we become Christians. Easy to see why Paul termed the TC as the letter that kills isn't it! In that circumstance, though you officially break the TC I would say it is simply being part of a work in progress.

But would you consider stealing, or adultery the same? I wouldn't. In those circumstances I would say you should immediately know. The problem with having strict theological beliefs is, in practice they can be too narrow definitions if you see what I mean. Spiritual discernment must be allowed for in situations.
In my view, the first and Last of the TC are probable the hardest to follow.
On the flipside of what you wrote:
When I was young I used to wonder why. Thou shalt not covet was one of the TC. It didn't seem anywhere near as important as the rest. I understood murder, adultery, theft etc were very important to avoid. But thou shalt not covet seemed trivial compared to them. But at the time I thought that commandment only referred to material goods, ie a persons house or car.
But, though, when I reached puberty I still held that view, I was convicted impure thoughts were sin. So, though I had no true understanding of the meaning of the tenth commandment simply by reading it in my bible, I did understand in my heart and mind what obedience to that commandment entailed.
In my view, you certainly are a true Christian.

I do think stealing and adultery are in another category.

But people will justify themselves. The person who steals a stapler from the office, justifying it because they feel they are underpaid. Again, it's not right, and I'm not saying it isn't sin, but it is a different heart motive than, say, running a con scheme that makes paupers of elderly people.

I don't mean that morality is relative. I am just saying that people commonly justify themselves (I think this can risk searing the conscience). And that some sins indicate a much more serious heart sickness than others.

But I do see your point. And in one's heart, I don't think a Christian could not understand that stealing or adultery are sins. The very attempt to justify oneself shows that sin is recognized ... we wouldn't try to justify ourselves if we didn't think on some level that we were doing something wrong.

 

[~Anastasia~]

By the way, I agree that the first and last Commandments are the most difficult. The first simply covers SO much, and in a sense, I think the last for the same reason, because of the story I shared.

It does seem not so difficult (and not so serious) to avoid wishing you yourself have your neighbor's car, or tv, or whatever. But while I'm not sure how deep the layers potentially go, I think that when you get past the surface understanding, it is connected on a deep level with beginning to love your neighbor as yourself.

And I think the first commandment is likewise especially connected to loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.

I think the importance makes them both the hardest to keep, as well as the most beneficial.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I do think stealing and adultery are in another category.

But people will justify themselves. The person who steals a stapler from the office, justifying it because they feel they are underpaid. Again, it's not right, and I'm not saying it isn't sin, but it is a different heart motive than, say, running a con scheme that makes paupers of elderly people.

I don't mean that morality is relative. I am just saying that people commonly justify themselves (I think this can risk searing the conscience). And that some sins indicate a much more serious heart sickness than others.

But I do see your point. And in one's heart, I don't think a Christian could not understand that stealing or adultery are sins. The very attempt to justify oneself shows that sin is recognized ... we wouldn't try to justify ourselves if we didn't think on some level that we were doing something wrong.

Good points.
Which leads me to ask you something. A friend of mine remarked that if the TC are written on your mind and placed on your heart, how can some try and be justified by obeying them, they must know they fail. I thought that was a very good point to make.
I heard a minister once state that85% of people who make a commitment to Christ subsequently give up with the faith. I refuse to believe they were all insincere.
Why do some, who try and justify their Christianity according to their own personal goodness ( must be by observing the lawTC) remain in church, and relentlessly stress you.must obey the TC to attain heaven, whereas others give up crushed by their inability to do so, not feeling able to justify/ excuse their sin?

 

[stuart lawrence]

When I try to imagine what you describe, I am reminded of a parody of a movie scene, maybe, of teenage girls. It CAN BE something of a speech mannerism for some people.

I remember when I was about 14, I had picked up the habit of using the word "like" three or four times in every sentence. Thankfully, some friends were "kind" enough to mock me continually until I was able to focus on that mannerism, and stop it. It took a week or two to completely eradicate, and a 14-year-old girl being mocked is in a highly motivated state, lol.

That still wouldn't excuse it. And maybe that's not the case of the person you describe.

If it happens IN Church (but didn't you mention elsewhere it was outside?), but if no one in a Church says anything, and it's been some time, I'd wonder about that. And I'm still imagining a teen girl with a speech mannerism.

But if it happens only outside of Church, it's not a speech mannerism.

I do see your point of view. I've never seen such a thing being accepted in a Church setting.

As I said previously, I dont want to err beyond the remit of the thread( something unfortunately I am prone to do)

I have been referring to many conversations between two people where this took place. I wondered if it was just them. However, I then went to a church service at their church. A woman passed by me and under her breath said o m g.
So it is only at this one denomination I have personally found people casually taking the Lords name in vain.
The interesting thing to me is, this denomination is the most vehement I have ever known to stress you must obey the Ten Commandments.
Is there a connection? Strangely, I believe there is.

 

[~Anastasia~]

As I said previously, I dont want to err beyond the remit of the thread( something unfortunately I am prone to do)

I have been referring to many conversations between two people where this took place. I wondered if it was just them. However, I then went to a church service at their church. A woman passed by me and under her breath said o m g.
So it is only at this one denomination I have personally found people casually taking the Lords name in vain.
The interesting thing to me is, this denomination is the most vehement I have ever known to stress you must obey the Ten Commandments.
Is there a connection? Strangely, I believe there is.

Well, I admit now you've got my curiosity, and I see your point more clearly.

Personally, I like to trace developments of theologies - not terribly important but just a matter of interest to me.

But it seems you are expanding to include the psychology and behavior associated with that as well.

I've paid attention to that in cases that were pretty glaring to me (such as the belief that ONLY those who publicly "speak in tongues" are saved at all, and the rather grieving effect that can have on many people who feel pressured by that teaching).

I fear it is something I'd have to be most careful in considering myself, because it is helpful for my own personal mindset to always try to ascribe the best possible motives and excuses to others, especially in their obvious failinings.

For that reason, I think it's made it a little harder for you and I to understand one another, but I am beginning to really see where you are coming from.

And that can certainly be a valid concern, especially for the sake of people who are wrongly affected by it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Good points.
Which leads me to ask you something. A friend of mine remarked that if the TC are written on your mind and placed on your heart, how can some try and be justified by obeying them, they must know they fail. I thought that was a very good point to make.
I heard a minister once state that85% of people who make a commitment to Christ subsequently give up with the faith. I refuse to believe they were all insincere.
Why do some, who try and justify their Christianity according to their own personal goodness ( must be by observing the lawTC) remain in church, and relentlessly stress you.must obey the TC to attain heaven, whereas others give up crushed by their inability to do so, not feeling able to justify/ excuse their sin?

I may need to think about this a bit more.

My first thought was that I shouldn't have used the word "justify" their sins, because I mean they create reasons or excuses for them, and I don't want to confuse that with the idea of justification before God, but maybe there is more a connection after all.

I'm not sure if I can address that purely theoretically, which I'd have to do if I can't relate it to my own experience, since I can only consider theory, or my own experience (I won't start delving into other real people's motives and their salvation.).

I will try to think on this some more, and see if I can better understand what you mean.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I may need to think about this a bit more.

My first thought was that I shouldn't have used the word "justify" their sins, because I mean they create reasons or excuses for them, and I don't want to confuse that with the idea of justification before God, but maybe there is more a connection after all.

I'm not sure if I can address that purely theoretically, which I'd have to do if I can't relate it to my own experience, since I can only consider theory, or my own experience (I won't start delving into other real people's motives and their salvation.).

I will try to think on this some more, and see if I can better understand what you mean.

You used the phrase
Justify their sins.

You learn some things in fifty years( you should do shouldn't you!)

Its a strange thing. But those who most earnestly stress you must obey the TC( with the inference heaven is attained if you obey them) I have found least reflect what Christ termed the higher points of the law in their lives.
And the person I personally have known who most earnestly and repeatedly stressed you must obey the TC if you want to attain heaven, justified their sin to a degree I have known no one else try and do. The person had multiple affairs, and justified them( the sin) by saying: All sin is equal in Gods sight and no one is perfect.

It is strange. People who stress the christians righteousness is faith in Christ, are accused by many( not you) of preaching a licence to sin. I have found the reality is the opposite of that.

But then, who were the worst offenders in Christs view when he walked this earth?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, I admit now you've got my curiosity, and I see your point more clearly.



Personally, I like to trace developments of theologies - not terribly important but just a matter of interest to me.

But it seems you are expanding to include the psychology and behavior associated with that as well.

I've paid attention to that in cases that were pretty glaring to me (such as the belief that ONLY those who publicly "speak in tongues" are saved at all, and the rather grieving effect that can have on many people who feel pressured by that teaching).

I fear it is something I'd have to be most careful in considering myself, because it is helpful for my own personal mindset to always try to ascribe the best possible motives and excuses to others, especially in their obvious failinings.

For that reason, I think it's made it a little harder for you and I to understand one another, but I am beginning to really see where you are coming from.

And that can certainly be a valid concern, especially for the sake of people who are wrongly affected by it.

Though I believe speaking in tongues is valid for today, I completely agree with you concerning what you wrote. It is tragic Tha many who go to certain churches feel despondant, almost left out if they themselves do not speak in tongues due to what the church teaches. My heart goes out to such people.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, I admit now you've got my curiosity, and I see your point more clearly.

Personally, I like to trace developments of theologies - not terribly important but just a matter of interest to me.

But it seems you are expanding to include the psychology and behavior associated with that as well.

.

Absolutely.

Who did Jesus say were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean on the inside?
The people who most earnestly strove to have a righteousness of observing the law

Paul the Christian looking back to the time when as a young Pharisee he reached the age to make a personal commitment to his religion:

For I had not have known lust, except the law had said: Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking advantage by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.
Rom7:7&8