Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

~Anastasia~ said:

Yes, but redefining morality so as not to offend people?

I know of situations (not exactly the one we are discussing), and our priest handles them with great sensitivity and gentleness. But to simply decide that same-sex activity, or if you want to make it something less controversial, adultery, or fornication - for a pastor to simply overlook such behavior, not address it at all, and bless it, because he doesn't want to offend anyone? That is the kind of pastor you are asking for?


As I said, there needs to be sensitivity and gentleness with whatever a person is dealing with. But I can't agree with redefining sin, and you seem to accuse Orthodox priests of being callous and unfeeling because they won't do so.

I'm afraid I consider your assessment unfair. They have a responsibility before God for the souls they pastor - you would be asking them to voluntarily shoulder that guilt before God, and possibly endanger souls in the process.

It may be that on this, we will have to agree to disagree.

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On this I completely agree with you.
It is not possible to happily be in a homosexual relationship if you have been born again. The law written on your mind and placed on your heart would not allow for such a thing.

truefiction1 said:

These are not the belief sets of a denomination. Repentance unto God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the teaching of God in the Bible. Denominational belief sets are the fabrications of heretical teachers who choose to believe something other than what is plainly taught by the Christ, Whose ministry in the world began with the preaching of repentance in order to receive the Kingdom of God.

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I have been told some churches actually chant:

We believe in Christ and the gospels.

In other words, they are dubious as to much of what follows. Christ must be at the centre of our faith, but if you want to understand the new covenant explained you have to read beyond the gospels.
For then the Holy Spirit had been sent, and people could then bear the knowledge they could not bear while Christ was with his disciples

stuart lawrence said:

On this I completely agree with you.
It is not possible to happily be in a homosexual relationship if you have been born again. The law written on your mind and placed on your heart would not allow for such a thing.

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Actually I suspect that those who are truly same-sex attracted cannot be "happily" anything in terms of sexual expression. I think it must be a very great cross to bear. But if they simply convince themselves that it's ok because of their "need" they risk searing their conscience.

I don't have animosity toward people who are same-sex attracted. I have great compassion for them, and I don't get upset at their sin being some especially evil kind of sin, because adultery, pride, lying, and stealing are all sins just the same.

We all have this or that to struggle with. Thank God for His mercy, especially on those with heavier crosses.

stuart lawrence said:

I have been told some churches actually chant:

We believe in Christ and the gospels.

In other words, they are dubious as to what follows. Christ must be at the centre of our faith, but if you want to understand the new covenant explained you have to read beyond the gospels.
For then the Holy Spirit had been sent, and people could then bear the knowledge they could not bear while Christ was with his disciples

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I've never heard that in a church.

But I suppose it's possible they believe in Christ, the Gospels, the Epistles, Acts ... I would say chances are they do, and by saying "Christ and the Gospels" they probably don't mean "and nothing else". But I guess you'd have to ask them. Maybe there are people who believe that way, but I have never met any.

FireDragon76 said:

I don't agree in the moral equivalence of the comparison you are making, but its obvious you are not ready to have that sort of discussion and honestly this is not the appropriate forum for it, so we will have to agree to disagree.

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I'm not trying to imply moral equivalence. I'm trying to discuss principles, and it's easier with some example. But that always risks misunderstanding too - just not as much as without examples.

~Anastasia~ said:

I've never heard that in a church.

But I suppose it's possible they believe in Christ, the Gospels, the Epistles, Acts ... I would say chances are they do, and by saying "Christ and the Gospels" they probably don't mean "and nothing else". But I guess you'd have to ask them. Maybe there are people who believe that way, but I have never met any.

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I was informed of that by a kindly man in the salvation army. Though I have actually not cone accross it myself.
However, I was chatting to a minister once of a certain denomination, and they were horrified at the thought of the power of sin being the law for example.
So it might not be as far fetched as it may immediately appear

stuart lawrence said:

I would say cooperation with God, is looking to Christ and trusting him. If you are doing that, you cannot at the same time be wilfully seeking to serve the flesh.
The christian is called to put no confidence in the flesh( themself) phil3:3)

You cannot change yourself, victory over sin, is in dying to law and living by a sole righteousness of faith I Christ.
In my view, people actually live under the law without realising they are doing so. I know I did when i was young.
The Christian is called to surrender their life to Christ, they have chosen their master, the Holy Spirit has entered their life and placed the law within them.
Can a christian be unfaithful and commit wilful sin? Of course they can, for their flesh was not born again. But can a truly born again person happily commit wilfull sin without conscience?
NEVER. Such a person was not born again I the first place

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Well, I don't want to say much here, because we give this a great deal of attention.

I will say that yes, we must fully rely on God. Without Him, nothing is possible. But we aren't passive. We are told to be active, such as taking thoughts captive to Christ, resisting the devil, and more.

But I think I've said before in this thread, God really does desire to make us actually more like Christ, not just a positional statement. And we have our active part to play in cooperation - Scripture is full of such admonitions.

And we take this seriously.

But again, this is a lifelong effort - not a prerequisite to conversion, lest we get back into that misunderstanding.

stuart lawrence said:

I was informed of that by a kindly man in the salvation army. Though I have actually not cone accross it myself.
However, I was chatting to a minister once of a certain denomination, and they were horrified at the thought of the power of sin being the law for example.
So it might not be as far fetched as it may immediately appear

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I think Salvation Army is actually a denomination? If that's what he meant. I've heard they have some distinctives that most of the rest of Christianity would disagree with, but I've never checked to see if that's true, and I don't know what they are. I researched many denominations, but never got to that one.

~Anastasia~ said:

I think Salvation Army is actually a denomination? If that's what he meant. I've heard they have some distinctives that most of the rest of Christianity would disagree with, but I've never checked to see if that's true, and I don't know what they are. I researched many denominations, but never got to that one.

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On the one hand they don't believe baptism in water is neccessary, but on the other, I know of no other denomination who more exemplifies helping the poor and needy to the extent they do

~Anastasia~ said:

Well, I don't want to say much here, because we give this a great deal of attention.

I will say that yes, we must fully rely on God. Without Him, nothing is possible. But we aren't passive. We are told to be active, such as taking thoughts captive to Christ, resisting the devil, and more.

But I think I've said before in this thread, God really does desire to make us actually more like Christ, not just a positional statement. And we have our active part to play in cooperation - Scripture is full of such admonitions.

And we take this seriously.

But again, this is a lifelong effort - not a prerequisite to conversion, lest we get back into that misunderstanding.

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What I have previously written was in regard mainly to new converts.
I take your point concerning those who have somewhat matured in the faith.
Though in and of themselves people can do nothing.

stuart lawrence said:

What I have previously written was in regard mainly to new converts.
I take your point concerning those who have somewhat matured in the faith.
Though in and of themselves people can do nothing.

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See, I think we probably tend to agree on much. I find that, usually, if I talk to people long enough that we can truly understand one another. These things are not quickly laid on new converts. They most certainly don't come before conversion, as a necessary step before receiving God's grace.

And everything is the result of God's grace working in us.


I'm not sure if we agree on "doing nothing" but I'm talking about the kinds of things we read in Scripture.

Resist the devil.

Bring thoughts captive to Christ.

Think on good things.

Discipline the flesh.

Pray without ceasing.

These are the kinds of things we learn to do for our part. But the real work is God's. Without Him, we could do nothing. We know this.

Anyway, I hope we are starting to make sense to one another.

~Anastasia~ said:

See, I think we probably tend to agree on much. I find that, usually, if I talk to people long enough that we can truly understand one another. These things are not quickly laid on new converts. They most certainly don't come before conversion, as a necessary step before receiving God's grace.

And everything is the result of God's grace working in us.


I'm not sure if we agree on "doing nothing" but I'm talking about the kinds of things we read in Scripture.

Resist the devil.

Bring thoughts captive to Christ.

Think on good things.

Discipline the flesh.

Pray without ceasing.

These are the kinds of things we learn to do for our part. But the real work is God's. Without Him, we could do nothing. We know this.

Anyway, I hope we are starting to make sense to one another.

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But would you agree, our part is dependant on the power of the Holy Spirit within us?
In and of ourselves we can do nothing.
The power of God on this earth I the Holy Spirit.
Many try to do the our part in their own strength. They do not rely on the power of the Spirit to do the our part. They do not pray for the power of the Spirit to be manifest in their life so they nay be sanctified. And the christian is sanctified by the Spirit.

But before all of this, you have to get the foundation right, without Tha your house will collapse.
The christian has no righteousness/ justification before God of observing the law.

And sin is transgression of the law.

Do I hear an Amen?

Or a but?

I've just read a post of a poor young man. My heart goes out to him.
He fears he will end up I hell because of his lust. But he wants to follow Christ. But he Is afraid his sin will send him to hell.
Maybe someone told him God will only accept him if he has firstly foresaken all his sin.

Therefore no one will be declared righteous/ justified in His sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rom3:20

Sin is the transgression of the law
1john 3:4

Therefore romans 3:20 could be written:

No one will be declared righteous / justified by striving not to commit sin.


I guess some things in the bible are just too much to expect christians to accept

stuart lawrence said:

I have been told some churches actually chant:

We believe in Christ and the gospels.

In other words, they are dubious as to much of what follows. Christ must be at the centre of our faith, but if you want to understand the new covenant explained you have to read beyond the gospels.
For then the Holy Spirit had been sent, and people could then bear the knowledge they could not bear while Christ was with his disciples

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The Church regards all of the writings of the New Testament to be the Gospel. All the books are written after the Holy Spirit comes.

~Anastasia~ said:

I don't have animosity toward people who are same-sex attracted.

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That's important.

I think you can better understand where I am coming from, even if we don't agree.

We all have this or that to struggle with. Thank God for His mercy, especially on those with heavier crosses.

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I can agree to that, without necessarily agreeing every cross is something people should feel guilty for.

stuart lawrence said:

But would you agree, our part is dependant on the power of the Holy Spirit within us?
In and of ourselves we can do nothing.
The power of God on this earth I the Holy Spirit.
Many try to do the our part in their own strength. They do not rely on the power of the Spirit to do the our part. They do not pray for the power of the Spirit to be manifest in their life so they nay be sanctified. And the christian is sanctified by the Spirit.

But before all of this, you have to get the foundation right, without Tha your house will collapse.
The christian has no righteousness/ justification before God of observing the law.

And sin is transgression of the law.

Do I hear an Amen?

Or a but?

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Of course our part is dependent upon the power of God.

Our very breath is dependent upon God. Not everyone acknowledges this, but God has mercy and gives them physical life anyway.

NOTHING happens without the power of God.

We do nothing except to properly direct ourselves, and we do that by the power of God too.

No buts.

stuart lawrence said:

I've just read a post of a poor young man. My heart goes out to him.
He fears he will end up I hell because of his lust. But he wants to follow Christ. But he Is afraid his sin will send him to hell.
Maybe someone told him God will only accept him if he has firstly foresaken all his sin.

Therefore no one will be declared righteous/ justified in His sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rom3:20

Sin is the transgression of the law
1john 3:4

Therefore romans 3:20 could be written:

No one will be declared righteous / justified by striving not to commit sin.


I guess some things in the bible are just too much to expect christians to accept

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Lord have mercy on him.

The thing is, that young man, IMO, is being honest with himself about his real state. He knows that (like all of us) he cannot make himself righteous and he is a sinner. This is true for all of us. We trust in the mercy of God.

In some ways, that young man is closer to gaining the Kngdom by the very fact of recognizing that he cannot make himself righteous.

It can be a difficult concept to grasp, because it seems on the surface, contradictory to what I've been saying.

The holiest men among us will say they are great sinners, and mean it. They may never commit an act anyone could interpret as sinful anymore. They may never say the least wrong thing. Their eyes may shine with the love of God, and their every word and action may radiate love for God and man, and holiness. Yet, they will say, they are very great sinners, and cannot save themselves. As I said, our goal is Christ. And by the time they have achieved this level of sanctification, because it comes only by the power of God, they will be very familiar with God and in great communion with Him. So they will recognize how holy Christ is, and how far any man falls short, and how powerless we are to save himself. And God is pleased with them. (I do not mean to say that He is only pleased by such people, I think God delights in any turning of our hearts toward Him.)

I think it is summed up well in the words of one such holy man. "I am a very great sinner, but God loves very much."

We rely on God for every bit of this work done in us. We just let him do it. Because He won't force anyone. We have the choice at any moment to indulge any selfish desire we want. But as you rightly noted, God's desire for us becomes etched in our hearts, and we recognize what we should do. God desires to form us in the image of Christ. Generally I think most Protestants call this "sanctification". But of course, the power to do this is from God. We can prevent it happening, or we can cooperate. But yes, our cooperation is also by the power of God. We claim nothing, else it becomes "we have saved ourselves" - which of course is impossible.

I've gotten lost in emphasizing that. I hope I made the point I set out to make, lol.

Oh, the young man.

If he were an Orthodox Christian, he would receive prayers that God would forgive him, encouragement perhaps of how to resist the tempting thoughts, and be told to go in peace. And when he felt overcome by lust again, he could return once again, receive the same assurance that God forgives, more advice if it is helpful, and on and on. It is a lifelong journey that we struggle against temptation.

The expectation would be that he not go out to bars and find a new woman every night to fornicate with. But if he did do that, and regretted it, he could come and receive prayers for forgiveness.

As for temptations to lust, some may struggle with it every day for the rest of their lives, I suppose. That wouldn't keep him out of the Church.

We don't judge people's salvation, so we don't say the person certainly will be saved or won't be saved. We just don't do that.

But struggle does not automatically mean a person is condemned - not at all.

There's a little parable I read ... let me see if I can find it and post it. It might illustrate better what I mean.

Here is the story ...

Once there was a monk who lived in a monastery. He drank and got drunk every day and was the cause of scandal to the pilgrims. Eventually he died and this relieved some of the faithful who went on to tell the Elder that they were delighted that this huge problem was finally solved.

The Elder answered them that he knew about the death of the monk, because he had seen the entire battalion of angels who came to collect his soul.

The pilgrims were amazed and some of them protested and tried to explain to the Elder who they were talking about, thinking that the Elder did not understand.

The Elder explained to them: "I know who you you speak of. This particular monk was born in Asia Minor, shortly before the destruction by the Turks when they took away all the boys. So he would not be taken away, his parents would take him with them to the reaping, and so he wouldn't cry, they just put raki (a hard liquor) into his milk to make him sleep. Therefore he grew up as an alcoholic.

When he grew up, he found an elder and told him that he was an alcoholic, but wanted to be free. The elder gave him advice to do prostrations and prayers every night and to beg for help to reduce the drinking.

After a year he managed with struggle and repentance to make the 20 glasses he drank into 19 glasses. The struggle continued over the years and he eventually got down to 2-3 glasses, with which he would still get drunk."

The world for years saw an alcoholic monk who scandalized the pilgrims, but God saw a fighter who fought a long struggle to reduce his passion.

Without knowing what each one is trying to do what he wants to do, what right do we have to judge his effort?

This is part of what I mean by not judging others, by "keeping our eyes on our own plate", and by understanding that we are all sinners. The young man struggling with lust, if he WANTS to please God, may certainly please Him, even if he doesn't completely overcome. We don't measure our "success". Only God judges, and thankfully, He is merciful!

Now, this again does not mean our efforts save us. But as I said, it's a seeming paradox, and difficult to illustrate EVERY truth in one story.

Everything - everything - comes by the power of God. In ourselves, we can do nothing. That is why we say that we cooperate, not that we ourselves accomplish.

~Anastasia~ said:

Oh, the young man.

If he were an Orthodox Christian, he would receive prayers that God would forgive him, encouragement perhaps of how to resist the tempting thoughts, and be told to go in peace. And when he felt overcome by lust again, he could return once again, receive the same assurance that God forgives, more advice if it is helpful, and on and on. It is a lifelong journey that we struggle against temptation.

The expectation would be that he not go out to bars and find a new woman every night to fornicate with. But if he did do that, and regretted it, he could come and receive prayers for forgiveness.

As for temptations to lust, some may struggle with it every day for the rest of their lives, I suppose. That wouldn't keep him out of the Church.

We don't judge people's salvation, so we don't say the person certainly will be saved or won't be saved. We just don't do that.

But struggle does not automatically mean a person is condemned - not at all.

There's a little parable I read ... let me see if I can find it and post it. It might illustrate better what I mean.

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The problem is, in my view, he is living under a righteousness / justification of observing the law, for lust breaks the law of God. And he fears he may end up in hell due to failing to observe the relevant law.
This is an important point to note I my view. People, sincere people, without knowing it, try to justify their Christianity the way Paul repeatedly implores people not to try and justify it.
And according to Paul, if the young man stops trying to justify his Christianity by observing the law, sin shall not be his master.