Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

abacabb3 · Feb 2, 2017

what are the ramifications of grace being uncreated in your mind?

If works by necessary consequence lead to God blessing man, how is that different that works compelling God to bless man or meriting blessing?

~Anastasia~ · Feb 2, 2017

abacabb3 said:
what are the ramifications of grace being uncreated in your mind?

If works by necessary consequence lead to God blessing man, how is that different that works compelling God to bless man or meriting blessing?

I'll give a try at answering.

Created grace seems to hand in hand with such things as "say three rosaries a day for fifty weeks and get seven years off your time in purgatory". It's a commodity, a transaction, a thing that can be measured, earned, and sometimes even bought and sold.

Uncreated grace is not so easily defined. But it is God working in us, with us (or rather, we cooperate with Him!) in the process of our transformation into Christlikeness.

Pray your prayer rule every day. You don't "earn" anything by it, and God certainly isn't obligated to give you x-amount of progress for doing so. But, the words sink into your spirit, become your own prayer. They shape how you view God, how you view man, how you approach God. God's energies are present, working within you, to transform you through this. The depth to which you let the prayer engage your heart can yield faster/more transformation. The mercy of God and how His grace works in us can yield faster/more transformation. But there is no formula.

We may pray deeply one day and not the next. We may even pray deeply one minute and not the next. God's mercy and help is not strictly a "reward" ... it CAN be, but He can also certainly choose to work more in a person who simply needs it more, not just one who is working harder for it.

I see the result of considering grace as the Energy of God to be a more organic, natural, synergistic approach to faith.

Compared to a more measured, calculated, defined approach.

Those are just tendencies in myself, given the background I have had, and the understanding I came to experience. I think for Catholics, it could be even more a dividing line. For someone whose thinking is, say, largely Pentecostal - while there are certainly other differences - the view of grace might be more easily connected to how they already view the Holy Spirit and so might not be such a new paradigm for them. I actually came, myself, from somewhere between the ends of the spectrum.

~Anastasia~ · Feb 2, 2017

abacabb3 said:
what are the ramifications of grace being uncreated in your mind?

If works by necessary consequence lead to God blessing man, how is that different that works compelling God to bless man or meriting blessing?

I'm not sure that I answered your second question. Well, I did, but I'm not sure it's obvious.

Nothing compels God. He never "owes" us x-amount of "progress" in exchange for x-amount of "works".

Indeed, I would argue that "progress" is something of an illusion, especially when viewed in the short term by one early on the path, though our human nature certainly seems to desire to measure ourselves in this way.

That's another topic though. But I would say, for a start, that progress is not akin to how far along a road we travel. It is better understood like peeling layers off an onion, to get to something true that is buried inside. But rather than a simple onion, there are false inclusions inside that can be exposed, but then must be identified and also peeled away. So what looks like "progress" might actually be the temporarily acceptance of a new false face, without even realizing it for a while.

That too, MIGHT show another part of the reason why measuring and counting can be deceptive?

ArmyMatt · Feb 2, 2017

abacabb3 said:
what are the ramifications of grace being uncreated in your mind?

only God is uncreated, so God's grace is God Himself, or more clearly, God Himself reaching into creation.

abacabb3 said:
If works by necessary consequence lead to God blessing man, how is that different that works compelling God to bless man or meriting blessing?

because God is free and He cannot be compelled. good works and faith open us up to God's blessing, but He is not compelled to do anything

abacabb3 · Feb 2, 2017

How do I approach a priest to begin catechismal instruction? Do i just show up at worship and speak to him afterwards? Are catechumens excluded from worship?

ArmyMatt · Feb 2, 2017

abacabb3 said:
How do I approach a priest to begin catechismal instruction? Do i just show up at worship and speak to him afterwards?

show up for a service and then speak to the priest afterwards. he will set you on your way.

abacabb3 said:
Are catechumens excluded from worship?

nope, in fact, there is an entire Litany for them after the Gospel reading.

abacabb3 · Feb 7, 2017

In the Creed of Dositheus it says:

We believe a man to be not simply justified through faith alone, but through faith which works through love, that is to say, through faith and works. But [the idea] that faith can fulfill the function of a hand that lays hold on the righteousness which is in Christ, and can then apply it unto us for salvation, we know to be far from all Orthodoxy. For faith so understood would be possible in all, and so none could miss salvation, which is obviously false. But on the contrary, we rather believe that it is not the correlative of faith, but the faith which is in us, justifies through works, with Christ. But we regard works not as witnesses certifying our calling, but as being fruits in themselves, through which faith becomes efficacious, and as in themselves meriting, through the Divine promises {cf. 2 Corinthians 5:10} that each of the Faithful may receive what is done through his own body, whether it be good or bad...But for the regenerated to do spiritual good — for the works of the believer being contributory to salvation and wrought by supernatural grace are properly called spiritual — it is necessary that he be guided and prevented [preceded] by grace, as has been said in treating of predestination.

I am being told the works do not merit salvation. Did Dositheus go to far in renouncing Calvin and adopted the Roman view?

abacabb3 · Feb 7, 2017

I am thinking that the Creed does not properly sum up Orthodox thought? It also condemns Scripture reading among the laity:

Nevertheless they should not be read by all, but only by those who with fitting research have inquired into the deep things of the Spirit, and who know in what manner the Divine Scriptures ought to be searched, and taught, and finally read. But to those who are not so disciplined, or who cannot distinguish, or who understand only literally, or in any other way contrary to Orthodoxy what is contained in the Scriptures, the Catholic Church, knowing by experience the damage that can cause, forbids them to read [Scripture]. Indeed, it is permitted to every Orthodox to hear the Scriptures, that he may believe with the heart unto righteousness, and confess with the mouth unto salvation {Romans 10:10}. But to read some parts of the Scriptures, and especially of the Old [Testament], is forbidden for these and other similar reasons.

ArmyMatt · Feb 7, 2017

abacabb3 said:
I am being told the works do not merit salvation. Did Dositheus go to far in renouncing Calvin and adopted the Roman view?

well, even though He uses the word merit (that could be just the translation), but says at the end:

abacabb3 said:
wrought by supernatural grace are properly called spiritual — it is necessary that he be guided and prevented [preceded] by grace, as has been said in treating of predestination.

so it is fueled and initiated by God, not man, and therefore there is nothing owed from our good works, since the very fact that we can do anything good is a gift of God. even the freedom to make the choice is grace.

ArmyMatt · Feb 7, 2017

abacabb3 said:
I am thinking that the Creed does not properly sum up Orthodox thought? It also condemns Scripture reading among the laity:

Nevertheless they should not be read by all, but only by those who with fitting research have inquired into the deep things of the Spirit, and who know in what manner the Divine Scriptures ought to be searched, and taught, and finally read. But to those who are not so disciplined, or who cannot distinguish, or who understand only literally, or in any other way contrary to Orthodoxy what is contained in the Scriptures, the Catholic Church, knowing by experience the damage that can cause, forbids them to read [Scripture]. Indeed, it is permitted to every Orthodox to hear the Scriptures, that he may believe with the heart unto righteousness, and confess with the mouth unto salvation {Romans 10:10}. But to read some parts of the Scriptures, and especially of the Old [Testament], is forbidden for these and other similar reasons.

well, his creed is not the Creed of the Church, so what he might be pointing out were local problems that he saw. maybe he saw too many folks injecting their own opinion or philosophy into the Gospel in a wrong way, and that is why he said not everyone should read them.

abacabb3 · Feb 7, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
well, even though He uses the word merit (that could be just the translation)...so it is fueled and initiated by God, not man, and therefore there is nothing owed from our good works, since the very fact that we can do anything good is a gift of God. even the freedom to make the choice is grace.

This is a stumbling block for me. It is essentially saying, "Your own works don't save you, but good works you do by the grace of God do play a part in earning salvation."

To quote p.1600 in the Orthodox Study Bible: "good works flow out of authentic faith. Works cannot earn us this great treasure--it is a pure gift--but those who receive this gift do good. We are no saved by good works but for good works."

The above does not deny that God does good works through us. But, it does deny that salvation is the recompense for work, wrought through the agency of God or otherwise.

Would it be accurate to say that there would be some Orthodox that ultimately, at some level, affirm the Roman view of merits when it pertains to justification (such as Dositheus in the above) and others that do not (Fr. John Breck, Jeremias II, the editors of the study Bible, etc.)

Thank you so much for your insight.

ArmyMatt · Feb 7, 2017

abacabb3 said:
"Your own works don't save you, but good works you do by the grace of God do play a part in earning salvation."

they don't save, but they do play a part in salvation, just not earning salvation.

abacabb3 said:
Would it be accurate to say that there would be some Orthodox that ultimately, at some level, affirm the Roman view of merits when it pertains to justification (such as Dositheus in the above) and others that do not (Fr. John Breck, Jeremias II, the editors of the study Bible, etc.)

but even Dositheus does not say the Roman view if you look at the whole quote, and not just what you highlighted. the last couple of lines I think pretty much trash the idea of the Roman understanding, even if he uses the Roman wording

abacabb3 · Feb 7, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
they don't save, but they do play a part in salvation, just not earning salvation.

Yes, as works perfect faith, and we are being increasingly transformed into the image of the Lord, right?

but even Dositheus does not say the Roman view if you look at the whole quote, and not just what you highlighted. the last couple of lines I think pretty much trash the idea of the Roman understanding, even if he uses the Roman wording

Can you differentiate the two views for me? I am not seeing it, it awfully sounds like he is saying works merit salvation, and they contribute to salvation. Contribute, perhaps as they perfect faith, but merit? The Roman view also teaches that God's grace precedes works.

ArmyMatt · Feb 7, 2017

abacabb3 said:
Yes, as works perfect faith, and we are being increasingly transformed into the image of the Lord, right?

yep.

abacabb3 said:
Can you differentiate the two views for me? I am not seeing it, it awfully sounds like he is saying works merit salvation, and they contribute to salvation. Contribute, perhaps as they perfect faith, but merit? The Roman view also teaches that God's grace precedes works.

yes, but in the catechism you quoted and defined earlier, it says that merits are owed. Dositheus says:

abacabb3 said:
wrought by supernatural grace are properly called spiritual

grace is God's uncreated energy, ie God Himself. so the works he is speaking of are wrought by God. not simply that God precedes works, but He wrought the works in man.

abacabb3 · Feb 7, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
grace is God's uncreated energy, ie God Himself. so the works he is speaking of are wrought by God. not simply that God precedes works, but He wrought the works in man.

Can God wrought works in man that do not demand recompense from Himself?

BTW I don't think Catholics believe grace merely precedes works, but it actually accomplishes the work within man. Either way, the work being done demands recompense.

ArmyMatt · Feb 7, 2017

abacabb3 said:
Can God wrought works in man that do not demand recompense from Himself?

of course He can. if God is love, He does not demand recompense for anything He does.

abacabb3 said:
BTW I don't think Catholics believe grace merely precedes works, but it actually accomplishes the work within man. Either way, the work being done demands recompense.

but they do believe grace is created, unlike us who believe that grace is God Himself. if the grace working through man is God, there is no demand of recompense from Him.

abacabb3 · Feb 7, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
but they do believe grace is created, unlike us who believe that grace is God Himself.

what is the importance of this vis a vis the EO and RCC views of justification?

if the grace working through man is God, there is no demand of recompense from Him.

Then why does it sometimes merit?

ArmyMatt · Feb 7, 2017

abacabb3 said:
what is the importance of this vis a vis the EO and RCC views of justification?

not sure what Rome's view on this is, but for us, our salvation is our justification which is theosis. justification is participation in God's Divine life, and knowing Him fully in His grace.

abacabb3 said:
Then why does it sometimes merit?

dunno, depends on what he was talking about, who he was talking to, and what it means in original context and language

abacabb3 · Feb 7, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
dunno, depends on what he was talking about, who he was talking to, and what it means in original context and language

could he be wron or speaking in such a way EO don't normally understand?

ArmyMatt · Feb 7, 2017

abacabb3 said:
could he be wron or speaking in such a way EO don't normally understand?

not knowing enough I can say maybe. even some saints have been wrong, and he absolutely could be speaking in a way that folks take out of context.

Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

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