(Eastern Orthodox Only) Are forced conversions immoral?

[All4Christ]

I also would say, as a clarification to my view, that the priest should open up the doors to tend to the spiritual needs of all who desire to learn about Orthodoxy and to spread the good word. We should all be ready and willing to share our testimony and our faith. If a recipient of that service is interested in learning why we believe what we believe, then that spiritual care should absolutely be available to them as well. We should make ourselves accessible to others. They should be willing to give spiritual counsel and / or emotional support even if a person isn’t ready or wanting to convert to Orthodoxy, but they shouldn’t only be willing to provide their spiritual services to the workers. The saints in Alaska shared their beliefs with all who wanted to know, and the monks went from village to village to share with them as well. The services provided should not be contingent on them converting, but we shouldn’t “hide our faith under a bushel” either.

 

[Not David]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I take Buz more to be condemning a particular type of proselytism, not "proselytism" per se as we generally speak of it in English (i.e. mission work). I mean, these anti-proselytism laws in Eastern Europe basically get passed because Prots (or worse: JWs) come in and don't have any sense of caution about their effect on fragmenting families and communities. Christ taught us that this fragmentation will occur, but what doesn't process with many Prots is that this doesn't mean you go looking to cause fragmentation. When you engage in forceful tactics, let alone outright forced conversion, you buy a very small short-term victory at the cost of a potential long-term victory with the culture. Respecting the context of the whole society is how Orthodoxy won Alaska. Not respecting the context of the whole society is what cost Catholics Japan.

What happened with Catholics in Japan?

 

[dzheremi]

Christianity was banned under the Tokugawa Shogunate (from the 1600s to the Meiji Restoration in 1868). See here for a brief history.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

Christianity was banned under the Tokugawa Shogunate (from the 1600s to the Meiji Restoration in 1868). See here for a brief history.

That was the result. A good movie that portrays that is Silence. The cause is best related if you read the book Shogun. Barring that, watch the miniseries. Basically, the Portuguese used the Jesuits to make inroads into Japanese society that made it possible to create an exploitative trade situation. The Japanese were already resistant to the incursion of foreigners, but ever since they found out about this, they have been livid at Catholicism. The novel Silence, written in 1966, was Shusaku Endo's expressing how frustrated he was as a Japanese Catholic that, 350 years after those events, the Japanese still have an implicit grudge, and the Catholic hierarchy still doesn't understand the country.

 

[GoingByzantine]

Honestly, if you aren’t bribing people, what is wrong with trying to help people who are disadvantaged? Coming to live in a place and doing something like opening up an orphanage, for example, isn’t forcing people to become Orthodox. If we only witnessed to people through waiting for local leaders to search for Orthodoxy, then the places with no knowledge of God would have no chance to learn about Orthodoxy.

A good example of Orthodox evangelism is the process of bringing Orthodoxy to Alaska. That is the epitome of Orthodox evangelism. Another example is St John Maximovitch of Shenghai. He founded an orphanage there in China and was quickly involved in local charities.

Bribing people is wrong. Evangelism in its proper context, however, certainly is compatible with Orthodoxy

Yes, you raise valid points. I suppose my opposition to the whole "humanitarian aid" approach is that the people who are converted often don't really know what they are signing up for. Often there is no catechesis beyond accepting the ideolically tinged musings of a random pastor/missonary, and the distribution of bibles. These people are then asked to convert their neighbors, which often leads to major upheval and strife.

If Orthodox want to provide humanitarian aid while also working on the evangelization of people, I have no problem with this, but that evangelization has to be a slow building process where the people learn the faith and understand the fullness of what they would be getting with Orthodoxy. Then it has to be their decision whether they accept Orthodoxy or not.

 

[buzuxi02]

the Japanese still have an implicit grudge, and the Catholic hierarchy still doesn't understand the country.

Bad enough we incinerated a japanese city which happened to have the largest Christian population at the time by dropping an A-bomb on an RC cathedral on Sunday morning mass. Try getting Japanese to convert to christianity now, it poisoned the well.


During and after WW2 the uniates tried to expand in Greece by opening up hospitals and orphanages, as they had access to money the Orthodox church did not, luckily they did not succeed with their "acts of charity". No different than what anglicanism has become today. A vehicle to extoll the virtues of serving man, in reality treating the less materialistic man like a domesticated pet reliant on the more wealthy (with its perceived superiority) group to provide menial luxuries.

 

[All4Christ]

Yes, you raise valid points. I suppose my opposition to the whole "humanitarian aid" approach is that the people who are converted often don't really know what they are signing up for. Often there is no catechesis beyond accepting the ideolically tinged musings of a random pastor/missonary, and the distribution of bibles. These people are then asked to convert their neighbors, which often leads to major upheval and strife.

If Orthodox want to provide humanitarian aid while also working on the evangelization of people, I have no problem with this, but that evangelization has to be a slow building process where the people learn the faith and understand the fullness of what they would be getting with Orthodoxy. Then it has to be their decision whether they accept Orthodoxy or not.

Agreed. That’s why Ss Methodius and Cyril, as well as some saints in Alaska and other areas established parishes and monasteries, created catecheses in the native language and translated Scripture to the native language. They ensured that the faith was accessible and ensured that those interested understood what Orthodoxy means and what the commitment entails.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I know one priest who has spent years in a small villiage, learning the language, translating the Scriptures and services, lovingly serving the people. He is there as helper and servant and friend, not forcing anyone in any way, and this seems to be a many-years effort. I thought that's the way it was generally done? (At least in terms of serving people and not rushing them or coercing them.)

 

[prodromos]

I know one priest who has spent years in a small villiage, learning the language, translating the Scriptures and services, lovingly serving the people. He is there as helper and servant and friend, not forcing anyone in any way, and this seems to be a many-years effort. I thought that's the way it was generally done? (At least in terms of serving people and not rushing them or coercing them.)

Traditionally, Orthodox missionaries expect to be buried at their mission.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Traditionally, Orthodox missionaries expect to be buried at their mission.

Ah ... well it seems this priest has that approach. He doesn't seem to plan to ever go anywhere else.

 

[Markie Boy]

We are called to teach and evangelize, all with love.

I think "forced conversion" is an oxymoron. So much of salvation in Scripture refers to Believing - which is voluntary and comes from the heart - you can not force that.

Was listening to AFR and Search the Scriptures Live, and she mentioned how someone said: You can join the Church unwillingly, you can receive the sacraments, unwillingly, but nobody can believe unwillingly.

I believe there is no such thing as "forced conversion".

Is it immoral - yes. If God does not violate a person's free will, does someone think they are above God and can do so?

 

[Newtheran]

The only Sacrament that does seem dependent on will for it's efficacious effects is the Eucharist, where those who receive the Eucharist unworthily receive it unto damnation, according to Saint Paul. But if the person isn't unworthy, or isn't capable of being unworthy, the Eucharist still has efficacious effects

There is no "forced conversion", really. There can be forced modification of external behavior. As such, I would think a forced conversion would put the person who was "converted" at a much higher risk of receiving the Eucharist unworthily unto damnation. The unfortunate reality of the Roman patriarchate is that since 1054 - and certainly since the end of the second crusade - much of its behavior and doctrine have been oriented towards increasing the power and wealth of the Roman pontiff rather than advancing the great commission.

 

[Barney2.0]

Heresy. If this were really true, the Orthodox wouldn't have canonized Saint Cyril and Methodius, who converted the Slavs, Saint Vladimir, who converted the Rus, Saint Herman of Alaska, who converted the Native Alaskans, and Saint John Maximovith - the lattermost who actually operated a Western Rite Orthodox Church in France. Not to mention Saint Benedict of Nursia, who went into Pagan temples and smashed idols, converting them to Churches.

If it is actually true, then Orthodoxy is objectively false and deserves the most detestable anathematization possible.

Question: My interest in Orthodoxy from a Roman Catholic background has, in fact, brought in a lot of division in my family. Am I sinning?

Saint Cyril and Saint Methodius didn’t proselytize using the Roman Catholic or evangelical way of buying the faith of the ignorant pagan natives with schools, hospitals, and paying people to convert to Christianity as we unfortunately see happening in many places around the world. Saint Cyril and Saint Methodius preached the faith with no compromise, just full Orthodoxy.

 

[All4Christ]

Having schools and hospitals doesn’t necessitate “buying” people to be Christians. Many saints have done similar things, including orphanages, schools, and more. The key is not making those services contingent on someone joining the faith, and to ensure that people interested in the faith understand what they are doing through teaching and catechism.


Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.