Easiest Defense of Sola Scriptura

[Alonso_Castillo]

It still means, if interpreted the way you want, that none of us can be saved, since all are sinners. Even the just man falls seven times a day, so he'd be lost too.

It Means that you have to obey and clean your sins by Confesion to the Priests:

John 20:23

when you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven, when you hold them bound, they are held bound.

 

[Albion]

The point of following God is not that we will ever stop sinning, it is that we want to stop and try to stop. So grace is still the reason for our salvation, but effort is the command.

Just to be clear, none of that was denied by what I wrote earlier, although it appears that all of it is denied by Alonso's thinking.

 

[Albion]

It Means that you have to obey and clean your sins by Confesion to the Priests:

John 20:23

when you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven, when you hold them bound, they are held bound.

Let me help you with that. This was spoken to the Apostles, so we believe that the authority to pronounce God's forgiveness is given to the church, but nothing in that says that this is "THE" way or "THE ONLY" way for any of us to repent and be forgiven.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Let me help you with that. This was spoken to the Apostles, so we believe that the authority to pronounce God's forgiveness is given to the church, but nothing in that says that this is "THE" way or "THE ONLY" way for any of us to repent and be forgiven.

It says that Jesús Wanted it that way and if you refuse to obey him you are going to be bound to your sins.

 

[Albion]

It says that Jesús Wanted it that way and if you refuse to obey him you are going to be bound to your sins.

I see that you have now qualified what you wrote earlier and moved in the direction of "AnticipateHisComing's" point in post #482. So, that's to the good.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

I see that you have now qualified what you wrote earlier and moved in the direction of "AnticipateHisComing's" point in post #482. So, that's to the good.

No, it is not the same, Because the Narrow Way is Obedience in Repentance and Confession of sins the way Jesús wants, while the ways all non Catholic Christians create to make their stances suitable for salvation hope are not the way of Jesús.

Disobedience implies making oneself ways and rejecting Christ way.

 

[FireDragon76]

That "rule" would effectively eliminate all of us.

The point of the incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ is not that he will save those who are obedient (for that is what the existing policy already was at the time of Jesus' birth) but that he will save sinners.

Are you saying obedience is impossible?

I think a lot of this issue is down to the more platonic/aristotilian notion of justice common in western Christianity that is completely at odds with the Jewish conceptualization of righteousness as faithfulness. That doesn't imply perfection, that is more of a Greek way of thinking of "goodness".

 

[Albion]

That is Gringo Cartoon fantasy.

the ways all non Catholic Christians create to make their stances suitable for salvation hope are not the way of Jesús.

^ This is what I'm reading. It cancels out all the amateur theologizing that has been posted along with it.

 

[Albion]

Are you saying obedience is impossible?

Of course. If anyone were righteous for having kept the Commandments perfectly at all times, he would be righteous on his own account and not need a Savior.

 

[JacksBratt]

In my theology Jesus isn't the second person of Triune deity, he is a creation of the Trinity.

Heresy is a term invented by the "brown shirts" of church government to maintain control of the people and the churches message.......for everyone's own good of coarse.

If He is a creation "of" the trinity......who are the members of the trinity?

 

[FireDragon76]

Of course. If anyone were righteous for having kept the Commandments perfectly at all times, he would be righteous on his own account and not need a Savior.

Not true. There is still the matter of death. This is why a purely juridical account of salvation is wrong. Incarnation, Ascension, all that stuff is part of salvation, not just the Cross. In fact the emphasis on the Cross as a settling of a debt with God is incomplete at best.

 

[JacksBratt]

No where in the catechism of the Catholic Church you read of Peter at the Gates of Heaven. That is Gringo Cartoon fantasy.



When James died A new Bishop was put in his place just before Jerusalem was Destroyed.

Saint Simeón of Jerusalem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_of_Jerusalem

And, who, exactly, determined that he was of the same honor as James? Who says that any man has this power anymore?

 

[JacksBratt]

I think you missed Catastrophically the Book of Revelation:


Revelation 5:8

8 and when he disclosed it,[1] the four living figures and the twenty-four elders fell down in the Lamb’s presence. Each bore a harp, and they had golden bowls full of incense, the prayers of the saints.


Now, how did the Prayers of the Believers reached the bowls of the Elders in heaven???????

The saints mentioned here are the saved people who have died and the martyrs of the tribulation. Basicly any person who has accepted the saving grace of God and is saved is a Saint and that is who they are talking about here and the prayers are not to other saints they are prayers "from" saints, the saved, to God.

 

[tatteredsoul]

Of course. If anyone were righteous for having kept the Commandments perfectly at all times, he would be righteous on his own account and not need a Savior.

There is a difference between striving to be 100% righteous out of obedience, and trying to be obedient because the law demands it 100% - in order to be saved.

I think we all agree The Man is Christ, and He is the only One that can, at least, be said to be 100% sinless from birth to death - fully obedient to God. In fact, His death was a literal sacrifice because by universal law He is due to continue to live (which is what happened by consequence: He resurrected.)

There are some people, though, that have been sanctified - 90.9459% righteous. Of course because of past sin they are condemned.

So, I don't think any learned student of God would burden his or herself with the law as an atlas stone to follow in order to get salvation. Through sanctification, people actually come to want to follow ALL of God''s law - like a mature child realizes his or her parent "suddenly" makes sense.

All of this inherently implies there are LAWS and/or RULES to follow - not ignore.

 

[JacksBratt]

It Means that you have to obey and clean your sins by Confesion to the Priests:

John 20:23

when you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven, when you hold them bound, they are held bound.

I do not need a priest. Christ opened the line directly to Himself, when He was on the cross. I can pray directly to Him and ask Him for forgiveness. I can do it at home, in the car, in a church, on the golf course, in a plane, on a tractor, at work........where ever I am.
The need for anyone to intercede for me was done the moment the curtain, veil, was rent from top to bottom signalling that there was no division between God and man anymore.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

And, who, exactly, determined that he was of the same honor as James? Who says that any man has this power anymore?

Barnabas was also regarded as an apostle. Yet he was not called directly by the Lord in person, (Acts 14:14)

And in the case of Mathias the apostles ratified him as an apostle, yet he was not called by Jesús in person.

The Apostles/Bishops share responsability over the church, but we differenciate the Apostle title to the Ones the Sacred Scripture regards as Apostles.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

I do not need a priest. Christ opened the line directly to Himself, when He was on the cross. I can pray directly to Him and ask Him for forgiveness. I can do it at home, in the car, in a church, on the golf course, in a plane, on a tractor, at work........where ever I am.
The need for anyone to intercede for me was done the moment the curtain, veil, was rent from top to bottom signalling that there was no division between God and man anymore.

Christ COMMANDED CONFESSION the very Day of His Resurrection, At least read the Bible, John 20 .

If your claim was true why then would Christ ratified his command after resurrection? that way we know your claim is fake.

 

[Albion]

There is a difference between striving to be 100% righteous out of obedience, and trying to be obedient because the law demands it 100% - in order to be saved.

Then let's stick with the first of those and agree that it--Works Righteousness--is not the reason any of us has the prospect of salvation.

I think we all agree The Man is Christ, and He is the only One that can, at least, be said to be 100% sinless from birth to death - fully obedient to God.

He IS God, so of course he was sinless by nature.

So, I don't think any learned student of God would burden his or herself with the law as an atlas stone to follow in order to get salvation.

Hopefully, that's so. But so also does it apply to the "good works" that such a person may perform after conversion. No one should think that these are even partially responsible for the salvation of any believer.

 

[JacksBratt]

Christ will Save those who obeyed him, If Christ spoke of His CHURCH, and not of his CHURCHES is because he was Forming ONE FLOCK not MANY FLOCKS, Christ has ONLY ONE BODY, NOT MANY BODIES.

Hebrews 3:18-19

18 To whom did he swear that they should never attain his rest? Those who disobey him.
19 We see, then, the consequences of unbelief; this it was that denied them entrance.

18 τίσιν δὲ ὤμοσεν μὴ εἰσελεύσεσθαι εἰς τὴν κατάπαυσιν αὐτοῦ εἰ μὴ τοῖς ἀπειθήσασιν;
19 καὶ βλέπομεν ὅτι οὐκ ἠδυνήθησαν εἰσελθεῖν δι' ἀπιστίαν.

It is arrogant for any man made denomonation to determine that they alone are the Church or body of Christ. Any human who has accepted Christ as their savior is part of the body of Christ. God could care less what "denomonation" your parents were.... it's nothing but an earthly denotation. God sees your heart. A person born Muslim, who accepts Christ is now a member of the church. A Budist, who accepts Christ is now a member. A Catholic. Anglican, Baptist, Jew or Tibetin monk who accept Christ for who He is, the savior, is then at that moment and forever after a member of the Church or the Body of Christ...

So, lets drop the arguing over who has a special club ticket to salvation. It is for all mankind.

 

[JacksBratt]

Christ COMMANDED CONFESSION the very Day of His Resurrection, At least read the Bible, John 20 .

If your claim was true why then would Christ ratified his command after resurrection? that way we know your claim is fake.

John 20 says nothing of confession...
Secondly, I can daily confess my sins directly to Christ. Every hour, minute, day ,week whatever, He will always be there for me... I need no body to intercede for my. Christ is beside me. He walks with me, talks with me, every second of my life on this earth. And, when I close my eyes on this earth for the last time, when I open them I will be in His presence for eternity.