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Easiest Defense of Sola Scriptura

PeaceByJesus

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Now we're getting into your opinion, which is like everyone else's.
Really? So outside of your objection to Rome's manifest desire to control Jerusalem being characterized as lust, which definition is in the eye of the beholder, what is simply my opinion in my statement that this desire "was for direct control, either thru or without internationalization of Jerusalem, which is arrogance in either case. The Jews were given the land by God, and lost it by disobedience, but after great suffering the Hebrew people regained a good portion of it, and defended it many times at the cost of much of her own blood and with manifest Divine help, and as a sovereign nation no other entity has a right to control parts out it, any more than the UN does here?"
 
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PeaceByJesus

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No, it doesn't. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference.
I'm sorry you can't tell the difference. If there is only one Catholic Church, which is the one Paul referred as the "one body, its excludes all other churches who are not part of Rome from being part of that body.

You can argue that Prots are actually part of the church of Rome=the mystical body, but which is contrary to so many magisterial statements, as shown, and ignored by you.
I have repeatedly said that there is only one Church Christ founded, and that all of us baptized conform to Christ imperfectly, regardless of what label we put on ourselves.
What you said was that there is only one Catholic Church, which is the one body Paul referred to, and thus those who are not part of the capital "C" Catholic Church are not part of the body of Christ.

Papal teaching is indeed that the mystical body of Christ and the visible, organic church of Rome are one in the same, and those who are not in submission to the pope, who are not in her bosom, but recede even in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium, are not part of that body.

Why evade this admission?

Or are you using "catholic" as saying that Church of Christ subsists also in Christian communities separated from Rome? If so, what do you do with the RCs who disagree with you? And if not, then you are saying that the church which Paul referred to is only the RCC, as charged.
As for "RC's" that disagree with me, so what? There's "RC's" that disagree with me on abortion and gay marriage, too. The Church is right, not necessarily those who claim to be part of The Church.
And they say the same, but here the weight of evidence is with the traditionalists, that Church of Christ does not subsists also in Christian communities separated from Rome.

And your church has stated that the idea that the one Church of Christ could subsist also in non-Catholic churches and ecclesial communities is contrary to the authentic meaning of Lumen Gentium, versus only salvific elements existing in them.

Which, as your traditionalists charge, is obviously different than the time in which those who are not in submission to Rome, who do not remain in the bosom of the RCC, were excluded as being part of the body of Christ.

The body of Christ "the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved," is described as that which believes in the Cath Eucharist, and that she has always held that they were "outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium," and that "in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors," that "all who want to belong to the true and only Church of Christ must honor and obey this Apostolic See and Roman Pontiff," for "subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ's faithful," so that "even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," and anathematizes those who hold "that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy." Sources
See above. People who all claim to be Democrats, Republicans, or members of any denomination don't agree on everything. That's why they tend to splinter from the main group. The main group still exists, though.Your opinion means little, really.
That is absurd, for it is manifestly not my opinion that Prots can be part of the body of Christ is that is only the Catholic church, for this elite unScriptural arrogance is abundantly substantiated by historical RC teaching!

And your analogy does not correspond to my argument, that a church which uniquely claims to be the body of Christ, and excludes as its members those who recede even in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium, cannot claim those who do so as being part of the body of Christ.

Just admit it.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Thank you for the most excellent and exhaustive discussion of this vital topic. I note that nobody from the opposing side has seen fit to respond to it. Thus, I think you have successfully made the case for a canon of scripture without the deutercanonical books.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Thank you for the most excellent and exhaustive discussion of this vital topic.
Well, it is far from exhaustive, but thank God for what light it provides.
 
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Root of Jesse

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You mean, other than the fact that the canon was determined in local councils in the 4th century? And that they include the deuterocanon?
 
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PeaceByJesus

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You mean, other than the fact that the canon was determined in local councils in the 4th century? And that they include the deuterocanon?

No, the fact that the canon was not determined/settled for the whole church in local councils in the 4th century or any century, and thus scholarly disagreements over the canonicity (proper) of certain books continued down through the centuries and right into Trent, which provided the first "infallible," indisputable canon — after the death of Luther.

And the (local) Council of Laodicea forbade the readings in church of uncanonical books, and its 60th canon only sanctioned "the 22 books of the Hebrew Bible, plus the Book of Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy...Around 350 AD, Cyril of Jerusalem produced a list matching that from the Council of Laodicea," (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Laodicea) though the authenticity of the 60th canon is disputed.

Moreover, Webster finds,

“The seventh Ecumenical Council officially accepted the Trullan Canons as part of the sixth Ecumenical Council. The importance of this is underscored by canon II of Trullo which officially authorized the decrees of Carthage, thereby elevating them to a place of ecumenical authority. However, the Council also sanctioned were the canons of Athanasius and Amphilochius that had to do with the canon and both of these fathers rejected the major books of the Apocrypha. In addition, the Council sanctioned the Apostolical canons which, in canon eighty-five, gave a list of canonical books which included 3 Maccabees, a book never accepted as canonical in the West.101 Furthermore, the Apostolical canons were condemned and rejected as apocryphal in the decrees of Popes Gelasius and Hormisdas.102 Thus indicating that the approval given was not specific but general.” (http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/Apocrypha3.html)


Furthermore, the claim that the Council of Rome (382) approved the canon depends upon the Decretum Gelasianum, the authority of which is disputed (among RC's themselves), based upon evidence that it was pseudepigraphical, being a sixth century compilation put together in northern Italy or southern France. In addition the Council of Rome found many opponents in Africa. More: http://www.tertullian.org/articles/burkitt_gelasianum.htm
 
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Rick Otto

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Are you aware of the actual historical details of the Balfore Decision, who the players were and how it fit into the geopolitics of globalization?
The reappearance of the nation of Israel is so sinister, it should effect your perspective on how it fulfills prophecy. I say reappearance as opposed to restoration.
 
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Bible2+

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Rick Otto said in post 1567:

The reappearance of the nation of Israel is so sinister, it should effect your perspective on how it fulfills prophecy.

Note that the prophecy of the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the literal, fruitless fig tree (Matthew 21:19) foreshadowed his curse on the part of Old Covenant Israel which rejected him (Matthew 21:43), for sola scriptura shows that a fig tree can represent Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9). And the Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at his 1st coming, insofar as it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman army.

But sola scriptura shows that Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in Jesus when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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^^ at which time they that preferred a king in rejection of God as outlined in Samuel will have the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and the sins of Benjamin will be remembered no more.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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Western culture tends to place a huge amount of value upon literacy i have learned recently...i wonder if sola scriptura was developed because of our culture's natural biased to literacy as being the be all, end all of communication and record keeping.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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You forget that God himself ordained scripture and personally penned the 10 commandments, IN STONE, the origin of an idiom that survives today, "written in stone".

You put the cart before the horse. Literacy is the response to God's command to proclaim the gospel and teach God's word to the world. Are you unfamiliar with how much the Church has been involved in translating the Bible into every language and teaching even remote people to be literate for the purpose of reading scripture?

Recognize the prophesy in Daniel that in the end times knowledge will increase.

Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”​

Acknowledge that literacy is key to widespread knowledge. The invention of the printing press was a disruptive technology that enabled knowledge to be distributed to the masses. The book that has been printed the most is the Bible. Today we have a further disruptive technology for knowledge. The internet and Google now offer free, unbounded access to information on just about all the knowledge of the world. All knowledge is at the fingertips of all people. This is truly fulfillment of the Daniel prophesy.

Now for the claim that literacy is just a thing of western cultures, you need to do a little more research before making such crass statements.
 
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PanDeVida

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Anti, really, Sola Scriptura? Is it really Sola Scriptura and nothing Else?

Yes, Thanks to the Catholic Early Church Fathers who compiled Scripture guided by the Holy Spirit, that many say "Sola Scriptura", in which the early Church Fathers never said or believed in Sola Scriptura.

Anti, However, can Sola Scriptura in itself, can it teach for itself, Baptize anyone, Marry anyone, Bind and Lose, Forgive or Retain sins, etc...???

Anti, if Sola Scriptura can not do any of the above itself, then it is not only Sola Scriptura as you say.

It is both, the Catholic Church and Scripture go hand in hand with each other, having one without the other is only having half truths and not the Full Truth.

Now why do I say Catholic Church? Well, it is an "easy defense" and that is, who compiled Scripture into a Bible? Catholic Church.
 
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Bible2+

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PanDeVida said in post 1573:

However, can Sola Scriptura in itself, can it teach for itself . . .

Yes, of course, in the sense that it was inspired by God the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:15-17), who can teach by himself. For:

2 Peter 1:19 ¶We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

PanDeVida said in post 1573:

However, can Sola Scriptura in itself, can it teach for itself, Baptize anyone . . .

Regarding baptism, note that the Holy Spirit himself teaches through sola scriptura that in order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). The original Greek noun for "baptism" (baptismos) is derived from the original Greek verb for "baptize" (baptizo), which means to immerse. For it is derived from the original Greek verb "bapto", which means to cover wholly with a fluid. We are to be "buried" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12), and no one is buried by having some water merely sprinkled on his forehead. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits that "In the Latin Church, immersion seems to have prevailed until the twelfth century. After that time it is found in some places even as late as the sixteenth century. Infusion and aspersion, however, were growing common in the thirteenth century and gradually prevailed in the Western Church". On what basis did the Catholic Church, or any other church for that matter, abandon the requirement of immersion?

PanDeVida said in post 1573:

Now why do I say Catholic Church? Well, it is an "easy defense" and that is, who compiled Scripture into a Bible? Catholic Church.

Biblical Christians believe that the Bible is God's Word (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4, John 8:31b), not because of some intellectual trust on their part in a purportedly infallible church, but because Biblical Christians have been granted God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b) and some measure of God's own Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:11-16). And so they are able to spiritually recognize if something is said by God (John 10:4,27; 1 Corinthians 14:37), or only by some "stranger" (John 10:5).

And Biblical Christians know that the Bible is God's Word not only because of the spiritual evidence of faith (Hebrews 11:1), but also because Jesus confirms that the entire Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). And the entire New Testament was written by eyewitnesses of Jesus (2 Peter 1:16; 1 John 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 9:1, John 19:35, John 21:24; 1 Peter 5:1, Luke 24:48, Revelation 1:17-19), or their immediate followers (Luke 1:1-2, Hebrews 2:3). And Jesus' New Testament suffering and death for our sins on the Cross, and his physical resurrection from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4), fulfilled Old Testament prophecy (Acts 26:22-23, Isaiah 53, Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Also, no doctrine in the Bible has ever been proven false, so there is no reason for any Christian to reject any doctrine taught by the Bible.

It is the Bible which is able to make people wise unto salvation through faith which is in Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 3:15; 1 Peter 1:23-25, Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, James 1:18). All of the Bible's teachings were given by the inspiration of God, and so they are all true and God's Word (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4). Jesus says: "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31). Christians must be willing to die before they would deny any part of his Word (Mark 8:35-38). One of Satan's prime aims is to get people to reject all or parts of God's Word and start believing something else which sounds better to them as humans (Genesis 3:1-6, Matthew 16:21-23; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), but which cannot save their souls, so that they will end up suffering in fire and brimstone with Satan and his fallen angels forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).
 
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sculleywr

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What good is a written word to a person who can't read? He still has to receive it by oral modes and trust that the person speaking doesn't alter it. And he still has to remember it in the same way he remembers oral traditions, so to him, it is no different from oral tradition.

On top of that, what good is the Scripture to you if you have to travel 500 miles by foot to get to a single letter of it?
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Since we just celebrated the resurrection of Jesus, and
the debate on Sola Scriptura and the Reformation will never die,
I resurrect my thread, to point out this is debated to death.

And yet I still have not been shown either
1) Another source of always incontrovertible truth besides scripture
2) A doctrine/teaching required for salvation, not in scripture
 
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thecolorsblend

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Interesting observation, actually. The ancients placed a tremendous premium on oration. It was of far greater value to them since written documents could not be questioned; public speakers could.

This "sola scriptura" thing could really only have developed in societies with higher literacy rates along with access to cheap publication methods; states of being which didn't exist in the first 1,500 years of the Church's existence and arguably don't exist on a global basis even now.
 
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Albion

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Not really. We have Early Church Fathers and the writers of the Nicene Creed crediting Scripture as the source of their doctrinal assertions--and nothing else. No Tradition, no Magisterium, nothing of that sort.

It did not take 1,500 years and a certain level of literacy for the notion of "Sacred Tradition" to develop, but it wasn't a belief of the Apostolic or the Ancient churches.
 
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fhansen

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If the word of God is not the only source of pure truth, what, then, is the document or person that could Vito what the Word of God says?
Nothing can veto God's Word. The Church was established to, among other things, correctly understand and proclaim God's Word, as we all desire to do.
 
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