Easiest Defense of Sola Scriptura

[samir]

Incorrect use of the word "Word."

John 1 says Jesus is the Word.

But we believe it to be true, and that's assumed by the nature of the question.

You believe scripture is true because of tradition. Yet you want to reject tradition and rely on scripture alone. You can't have it both ways.

Incorrect use of the word "tradition."

Telling me I'm wrong without explaining why isn't helpful.

 

[Geralt]

yeah right. pharisees seems to think that way too until their tradition became the authority over their lives.

There's two kinds of tradition. Sacred Tradition is God's word. 't'radition is man made. Paul told his followers to abide by the traditions he taught them, did he not?

 

[Geralt]

ah the old argument, going personal eh.
christ being God and the apostles bearing his authority justifies itself to be authority and therefore scripture.

what? you expect "your church" told me this ? ridiculous.

Christ acknowledged the OT at the written word of God. The NT was not around yet. So I will ask again, who told you that scripture (including the NT) is the word of God?

How do they follow the same approach? Please give me an example.

 

[samir]

Interesting. What do you mean by this?

I mean it is impossible to prove that every word of scripture is true so it is hypocritical to demand that people prove the unwritten tradition is true.

 

[Albion]

I mean it is impossible to prove that every word of scripture is true so it is hypocritical to demand that people prove the unwritten tradition is true.

No, it isn't--not when all the opponents of SS say that their way, Tradition, is better. It isn't. You can't name even one doctrine from Tradition that you know for a fact is God's truth and yet you want us to doubt God's word in Scripture.

 

[chilehed]

4) Prove another source of incontrovertible truth.

Sacred Scripture is a collection of ancient documents. How do you know which ancient documents are what they claim to be, and which ones truly belong in the collection? For example, how do you know that Paul's letter to the Hebrews was actually written by Paul?

 

[Rick Otto]

Sorry, that is NOT the definition of SS that I know of. SS is a Christian theological doctrine which holds that the Christian Scriptures are the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice.

That is the definition of SS. Yours does not match.

Right. Thank you for acknowledging that.
The problem I have with your definition is that it is vague enough in terminology to allow for argument.
I would reiterate that spiritual truth from any source can be calibrated by its agreement with the truth found in scripture.
Survival being first priority, we look to it to learn eternal life.
It tells us to judge the spirits and it tells us how to.
I totally agree that even SS is pretty useless if you don't relate to your maker and your saviour personally, though.
I ain't no doctrine nazi.

I think to frame an objection with an "every word of scripture must be true" stipulation, is invitation to argument.

 

[samir]

No, it isn't--not when all the opponents of SS say that their way, Tradition, is better. It isn't.

I don't know any opponents of SS who claim the unwritten tradition is better than the written tradition (scripture). Everyone I know thinks God's word is equal and the highest authority whether it is written or unwritten.

It is the supporters of SS who claim the written word of God is better than the unwritten word of God.

You can't name even one doctrine from Tradition that you know for a fact is God's truth

Sure I can. I believe the Trinity is true based on Tradition. I believe the four gospels are scripture based on Tradition. I believe in baptismal regeneration, infant baptism, and the necessity of baptism for salvation based on Tradition.

you want us to doubt God's word in Scripture.

That is a completely false accusation. I consider God's word the highest authority and don't want anyone to doubt it.

 

[fhansen]

Since all of those things are supported by Scripture and believed by Christians for that reason, Holy Tradition doesn't play a role in any of it.

Well, there are also plenty of Christians who'd deny that those things are supported by Scripture.

 

[Rick Otto]

These are premises; there's nothing incontrovertible about any of them. It's a matter of opinion that Scripture is God's word, an opinion that, with His grace, I agree with. Likewise it's a matter of opinion by some that God can and has spoken through other means as well.

Right. It is a right and reasonable generalization.
That passage in Deuteronomy endorsing slavery is not OK.
Thou shalt not kill should say murder.
etc.

 

[samir]

Well, there are also plenty of Christians who'd deny that those things are supported by Scripture.

Yeah, the majority of Protestants I know think they are opposed to scripture. I wonder if Albion thinks those Protestants are not Christians.

 

[Rick Otto]

QUOTE="samir, post:I don't know any opponents of SS who claim the unwritten tradition is better than the written tradition (scripture). Everyone I know thinks God's word is equal and the highest authority whether it is written or unwritten.

LOL... excuse me,... you must not get out much.
That sounds true about polite face to face conversation, not the norm for a debate area.
But I do believe you, and consider the sense of community you have that embraces this, as helpful.

It is the supporters of SS who claim the written word of God is better than the unwritten word of God.

Welllllllll,... yeahhhhhh.... but hopefully not in some repulsively smug way. It is better in the sense that it's origins and specifics are less debatable, being documents. That's all.
You can still be saved without it.
You can even be holier.

Sure I can. I believe the Trinity is true based on Tradition. I believe the four gospels are scripture based on Tradition. I believe in baptismal regeneration, infant baptism, and the necessity of baptism for salvation based on Tradition.

I have no trouble respecting that.

That is a completely false accusation. I consider God's word the highest authority and don't want anyone to doubt it.

Me too! Much love, bro.

 

[Rick Otto]

Yeah, the majority of Protestants I know think they are opposed to scripture. I wonder if Albion thinks those Protestants are not Christians.

Be yee not too concerned with his opinion.


Mine is far more valuable!

 

[Rick Otto]

So the Holy Spirit told YOU specifically that the Bible is the written word of God? Ok, thats fair, then let me ask you this, exactly where did the Bible come from? When was it first introduced to the world?

Me some too, please?
I believe it was delivered in parts by inspiration, to the authors, and that a similar inspiration drives men to preserve it.
The truth is perfect, the vessels thereof less so.
I believe the angels probably taught Adam stuff.
What we have starts with Moses, doesn't it?

 

[JacksBratt]

Jesus told us to listen to the Church. Not everything Jesus taught is in the bible.

What did Jesus teach here?

Acts 1
3After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God

Oh, hmm, can you show me where Jesus told us to "listen to the church"?
Because, I am told to live by the words of God, not the church.

Matthew 4:4King James Version (KJV)

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


Of course, not everything Jesus taught is in the bible and not everything that man will try to get you to do in the name of a religion, is in the bible either.:

John 21:25King James Version (KJV)

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

 

[samir]

Welllllllll,... yeahhhhhh.... but hopefully not in some repulsively smug way. It is better in the sense that it's origins and specifics are less debatable, being documents. That's all.

I'm not so sure about that. The church decided which books to include and which translations to approve. If the church's tradition was false then the church was false which means it could have included the wrong books or translated them incorrectly. Since a false church is guided by Satan, not Christ, how can I trust them to preserve God's word faithfully?

You can still be saved without it.

You can be saved without scripture. The early Christians didn't even agree on which books were scripture until the 4th century. Even though the bible contains the same 73 books they choose in the 4th century, some churches use bibles with more books and some with less books.

You can even be holier.

You can even be holier without scripture which wasn't accessible to many Christians in the early church due to the cost of bibles and people not knowing how to read.

 

[JacksBratt]

The true word is Living, the written word is of man writing about God. The Christian church may establish membership rules around SS but that doesn't mean the scripture is all true. There are many mistakes in scripture but no mistakes in God.

Yes the Bible is the "living" Word of God (better get my capitalization right here).

However, it is not the written word of man writing about God.

It is God breathed, God inspired and would not have existed for over 4000 years if it was not condoned by God.

It is truly amazing that the evil powers that control the world have not been able to destroy any part of the Bible.
It has been smuggled, died for, fought over and treasured and sworn on and endured for millennia.

Scripture is true. All of it. Down to the dots on the I's and the crossed t's Christ even said so...

Matthew 5:18King James Version (KJV)

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And, don't forget.... ALL SCRIPTURE:

2 Timothy 3:16King James Version (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


Doesn't sound, to me, like it's something God believes has errors in it...just say'n.

 

[samir]

Oh, hmm, can you show me where Jesus told us to "listen to the church"?

Sure. Matthew 18:17. "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."

If you believe Jesus then people who refuse to listen to the church should be treated as heathens (which means unbelievers).

 

[civilwarbuff]

Christ is sending the Spirit to HIS CHURCH,

So only the Church gets the Holy Spirit and not believers?

If you were one Church, you'd have one voice, one doctrine.

We do, it is called the Body of Christ.....all true believers....not just members of a particular denomination.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I mean it is impossible to prove that every word of scripture is true so it is hypocritical to demand that people prove the unwritten tradition is true.

Yeah, it is called faith.....belief in that which you cannot see.....maybe you heard of it.....