Easiest Defense of Sola Scriptura

[JacksBratt]

We do have evidence of the epistles of Ignatius and Polycarp (sub apostolic period) of the prolific use of the NT we have today.

In Polycarp's epistle to the Philippians there is prolific use of NT passages. This version linked below shows chapter and verse (as we know them now) in the NT and OT Polycarp teaches and exhorts from:

http://www.cogwriter.com/polycarpletter.htm

The above shows quotes and/or allusions to statements in all 27 books of the New Testament in this single letter from Polycarp. And, like Peter (2 Peter 3:16), Polycarp refers to a writing of the Apostle Paul as scripture.

Point being? Long before church leaders decided to catalogue the NT, it existed, was being used throughout the Roman Empire and perhaps beyond. No internet. No national library. Pretty amazing. Of course being less than a generation from the apostles many of these bishops and teachers memorized the words of Jesus Christ, the apostles and have either heard and/or read the epistles and books of the NT. What skeptics like to point out is the Bible is a late 3rd-to 4th century 'event.' When in fact the very NT books we have today were widely used since the death of the Apostles.

Of the earliest work of great length I like to read Irenaeus' Against Heresies. Against Heresies is dated circa mid 2nd Century (140-150 AD.). Take a look around Against Heresies and look at the rich references to the OT and NT.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm

Thank you for that information.

 

[samir]

If you were one Church, you'd have one voice, one doctrine.

We do, it is called the Body of Christ.....all true believers....not just members of a particular denomination.

Really? What is your Church's (the "Body of Christ" composed of "all true believers") one teaching regarding baptism? Is it necessary for salvation? Does it regenerate believers? Is it valid for infants?

 

[samir]

Yeah, it is called faith.....belief in that which you cannot see.....maybe you heard of it.....

So scripture is true because you believe it is true?

If faith is proof, then my proof that Tradition is true is my faith.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

So only the Church gets the Holy Spirit and not believers?

We do, it is called the Body of Christ.....all true believers....not just members of a particular denomination.

"Belief" is completely useless by itself. It's like giving lip service to a brand of high-end wine all the time, but then when it comes to actually buying wine, you always buy the cheaper kind you put down. The Holy Spirit is not just a thing you can possess, the Holy Spirit is God himself, and he works through his Church, which is the continuation of Israel. God delinted his Church with a structure to ensure its members were regulated, which really kind of makes sense, since there are loads of people calling themselves believers out there who believe all kinds of crazy things and interpret the Bible in very questionable ways.

 

[Colter]

Yes the Bible is the "living" Word of God (better get my capitalization right here).

However, it is not the written word of man writing about God.

It is God breathed, God inspired and would not have existed for over 4000 years if it was not condoned by God.

It is truly amazing that the evil powers that control the world have not been able to destroy any part of the Bible.
It has been smuggled, died for, fought over and treasured and sworn on and endured for millennia.

Scripture is true. All of it. Down to the dots on the I's and the crossed t's Christ even said so...

Matthew 5:18King James Version (KJV)

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And, don't forget.... ALL SCRIPTURE:

2 Timothy 3:16King James Version (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


Doesn't sound, to me, like it's something God believes has errors in it...just say'n.

What you describe is a form of idolatry, it keeps people ignorant.

The revelation of the Father in the Son is proof that the monster God of the OT is merely a God created in the image of the men who wrote, edited and rewrote the OT. The same kind of men who were enemies of Jesus. He said their father was the devil.

Jesus was talking about the old law, it's still there, the Judaism still has it LoL!
2 Timothy wasn't scripture when it was written, it was Just a mans opinion.

Unbiased honest people can see that the Bible has a number of errors and contradictions. People make the Bible the Word because it's easier than having a relationship with the living God.

 

[JacksBratt]

Sure. Matthew 18:17. "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."

If you believe Jesus then people who refuse to listen to the church should be treated as heathens (which means unbelievers).

We must be careful of how we take the context of scripture. This passage, you posted, Mathew 18:17, is but a portion of the long line of people that you are to contact if you are done wrong by someone.

In other words, if your neighbor takes your wheel barrow and doesn't give it back, you should ask him. If that doesn't work you should get some buddies and the four of you approach him. If that still doesn't work you are to take it to the elders of the church.

This is NOT a passage that instructs us to "listen to the church" as apposed to "listening to the scripture", The Word of God, as they are written.

This does not put the word of the church above the Word of God.

 

[aiki]

This is not going to be some long winded word game. It is easy.

1) God's Word is True, incontrovertibly true.
2) Scripture is God's Word.
3) Scripture is incontrovertibly true.

4) Prove another source of incontrovertible truth.
5) No other physical source of incontrovertible truth on earth has been proven.

1. To those who accept the evidence that it is, yes.
2. To those who accept the evidence that it is, yes.
3. To those who accept the evidence that it is, yes.
4. To what end?
5. Um, I think you're going too far here. What do you mean by "incontrovertible," exactly? What sort of truth are you talking about? All truth? Spiritual truth? Would you say 1+1=2 is incontrovertibly true? I would. Does this mean, to your way of thinking, that a mathematics textbook would also be "incontrovertible"?

By default, there is only Sola Scriptura.

Hmmm...I certainly hold to the idea of Sola Scriptura but I think "There is only Sola Scriptura" is a bit over-the-top.

Did the Early Church establish the truth of Scripture? Did it confer spiritual authority upon the canon of Scripture? I don't think so. The Early Church (not the RC church) merely recognized the truth and divine origin of Scripture and adopted those texts so recognized as the word of God. The Early Church, however, did not make Scripture true and/or divinely inspired. Those texts constituting the canon of Scripture were authoritative and God-breathed long before the RC Church formally acknowledged that they were.

Selah.

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm not so sure about that. The church decided which books to include and which translations to approve. If the church's tradition was false then the church was false which means it could have included the wrong books or translated them incorrectly. Since a false church is guided by Satan, not Christ, how can I trust them to preserve God's word faithfully?

easy.
Give the credit to God and individuals and not to whoever it is you're calling the church.
Satan like Judas, is even in the leadership of plenty of churches.
Are you sure you're not imposing artificial definitions and boundaries?

You can be saved without scripture. The early Christians didn't even agree on which books were scripture until the 4th century. Even though the bible contains the same 73 books they choose in the 4th century, some churches use bibles with more books and some with less books.

Yes! Again, thank you. Those are very important points, except that the 4 gospels and the epistles were pretty uniformly accepted. And I especially like the fact that one can be saved without scripture. I would naturally come to that conclusion, but imagine how inspiring it was for me when I discovered Psalm 19 confirming that.

You can even be holier without scripture which wasn't accessible to many Christians in the early church due to the cost of bibles and people not knowing how to read.

AMEN to that. And that is another reason why I find claims of catholicity of beliefs to be half myth.
Not a problem for my faith in or love for God our Father in heaven.

 

[Winken]

What you describe is a form of idolatry, it keeps people ignorant.

The revelation of the Father in the Son is proof that the monster God of the OT is merely a God created in the image of the men who wrote, edited and rewrote the OT. The same kind of men who were enemies of Jesus. He said their father was the devil.

Jesus was talking about the old law, it's still there, the Judaism still has it LoL!
2 Timothy wasn't scripture when it was written, it was Just a mans opinion.

Unbiased honest people can see that the Bible has a number of errors and contradictions. People make the Bible the Word because it's easier than having a relationship with the living God.

If the message of the Bible can be blown out of all proportion, this is the sine qua non.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

What you describe is a form of idolatry, it keeps people ignorant.

The revelation of the Father in the Son is proof that the monster God of the OT is merely a God created in the image of the men who wrote, edited and rewrote the OT. The same kind of men who were enemies of Jesus. He said their father was the devil.

Jesus was talking about the old law, it's still there, the Judaism still has it LoL!
2 Timothy wasn't scripture when it was written, it was Just a mans opinion.

Unbiased honest people can see that the Bible has a number of errors and contradictions. People make the Bible the Word because it's easier than having a relationship with the living God.

If you're a Gnostic, you can't post on this board.

 

[redleghunter]

Your argument, common among Protestants, that one doesn't need teachers because one simply gets all one needs to directly from the Holy Spirit, is not really convincing

Did I make such a statement? I don't think so.

You asked where does one learn contrition. Jesus Christ directly taught what I posted.

If you can find a statement from me or the Westminster Confession of Faith downplaying the importance of the teaching office, overseer and the importance of councils, please point it out.

 

[JacksBratt]

What you describe is a form of idolatry, it keeps people ignorant.

The revelation of the Father in the Son is proof that the monster God of the OT is merely a God created in the image of the men who wrote, edited and rewrote the OT. The same kind of men who were enemies of Jesus. He said their father was the devil.

Jesus was talking about the old law, it's still there, the Judaism still has it LoL!
2 Timothy wasn't scripture when it was written, it was Just a mans opinion.

The "monster" God? Are you serious.

How do you explain these verses then? We know Jesus is God, He is one third of the Trinity. He was there at the time of "let there be light". He created all things.

Not only that but Jesus simply states that He is the "I am". Remember when Moses asked God what he should call God. And God, through the burning bush, said "I am that I am".... Remember?

That was God. The God of the OT. Not a monster, but our savior......DON'T let the new age types take away the literal wealth of the truth of all scripture and our loving God.

Hebrews 13:8King James Version (KJV)

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

John 1:3King James Version (KJV)

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:16King James Version (KJV)

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

John 1King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


2 The same was in the beginning with God.


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Revelation 22:13King James Version (KJV)
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

John 8:58King James Version (KJV)
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Did I make such a statement? I don't think so.

You asked where does one learn contrition. Jesus Christ directly taught what I posted.

If you can find a statement from me or the Westminster Confession of Faith downplaying the importance of the teaching office, overseer and the importance of councils, please point it out.

I said cultivating contrition. We all already know contrition is central to Christianity, but cultivating it properly is something else. And some do have it more than others.

 

[Winken]

Sure. Matthew 18:17. "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."

If you believe Jesus then people who refuse to listen to the church should be treated as heathens (which means unbelievers).

One might take note of the fact that Matthew 18:17 was not written to The Church, the Body of Christ. The Greek affords the meaning "a gathering of citizens," "assembly of the people," and "any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance," in context, the Jews of that day.

 

[redleghunter]

Christ is sending the Spirit to HIS CHURCH, and the Church keeps a uniform understanding.

Since we are in a thread speaking of the Holy Scriptures as authoritative please point me where the Holy Spirit is sent to the Church.

 

[JacksBratt]

So scripture is true because you believe it is true?

If faith is proof, then my proof that Tradition is true is my faith.

If the Bible is not true..... we are to be pitied.

1 Corinthians 15:12-19New International Version (NIV)

The Resurrection of the Dead
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

 

[seashale76]

1 Timothy 3:15 tells us that pillar and foundation of truth is the Church. The Church uses the scriptures. The Church compiled the scriptures, decided which ones were actually scripture, and also interprets them. This is part of Holy Tradition and this is guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Since we are in a thread speaking of the Holy Scriptures as authoritative please point me where the Holy Spirit is sent to the Church.

Acts 2

 

[Winken]

1 Timothy 3:15 tells us that pillar and foundation of truth is the Church. The Church uses the scriptures. The Church compiled the scriptures, decided which ones were actually scripture, and also interprets them. This is part of Holy Tradition and this is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Then what they compiled is accurate? It reflects the will of God?

 

[redleghunter]

I mean it is impossible to prove that every word of scripture is true so it is hypocritical to demand that people prove the unwritten tradition is true.

Which truths do you find unproven?