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Easiest Defense of Sola Scriptura

Albion

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While related to the need for Sacred Tradition, the matter of SS "allegedly" leading to different interpretations is its own, separate, issue.
Right. This does need to be recognized when SS is the topic.

What an unbiased observer, say a secular historian, would consider interesting is the fact that for some reason the older churches, nearer in time to the beginning of Christianity, believe in a final state of purification for those who need it, prior to heaven
Most of them, that is. But they have quite different teachings concerning what that particular state is or does. If Tradition is your guide--and you're cool towards using Scripture--one would think that "Tradition" would produce some sort of agreement among the Tradition-oriented church bodies. The only way you can argue Purgatory and not be confronted with the fact that these churches have quite different ideas among themselves is to reduce Purgatory to the most simplistic description possible before pronouncing "See? They agree." Meanwhile, the oft-criticzed Sola Scriptura churches are almost unanimous in their view of Purgatory.

while most Protestants, going by Scripture alone, dismiss the idea entirely.
Exactly. The many Protestant churches, following Scripture, hold the same view of this subject while the various Catholic ones, following Tradition, are anything but united in their teachings about it.

Again, the matter of the Real Presence, the need for Baptism, infant Baptism, the priesthood, basic liturgical practices, sacramentology-all denied or debated among Protestants, due to SS, while these are simply the “way things are” with those churches-both east and west- whose continuous Traditions impact their theologies and practices.
Most of those are testified to in Scripture, so the claim that some mysterious "Tradition" instead was the cause of these churches believing in them is not convincing.
 
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JacksBratt

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Well, what works did Jesus bring up in His description of the judgement in Matthew? You know, sheep, goats?

So, as you have indicated, Jesus separates the sheep from the goats. The sheep are rewarded with eternal life because they showed generosity and kindness to those in need. Simple things like food for the hungry, clothes for the naked, a drink for the thirsty, a hug for the one who needs comfort, a visit to someone in the hospital etc.

The sheep are rewarded because they did this for these unfortunate people but were actually doing it for Christ.

The goats are punished because they didn't do it.

The goats would only have done it if it benefited them while the sheep did it without any expectation of it benefiting them.

The sheep did it out of kindness. The goats would have done it out of selfishness for their own gain.

These truths are evident by the sheep saying "when did we do these acts of kindness to You" (meaning Christ). They were oblivious to the fact that they were doing this for Christ, yet did it anyway.

The goats were also oblivious as to who they would have been showing kindness. Yet, they say that they would have IF they had known.

These examples of "works" that are evidence of our faith are not difficult. They are quite common to all people who live in a civilized society. Do you know anyone that doesn't give to charity, donate used clothes, buy a toy for a toy drive, visit sick, elderly, bring a dinner to the people who just lost a loved one, volunteer at a fundraiser? These are common actions of most communities.

This raises a question. If a person who has accepted Christ by faith and a person who refuses to accept that there is a God, Christ is God, they need a savior, and basically refuses to believe the biblical accounts of anything, let alone the gospel. If these two people are working fundraiser together to raise money for a homeless shelter....ARE BOTH PEOPLE SAVED?

Is the non believer going to be saved by these works? Can we agree that the believer's faith is evident by these works but the non believer is also showing works.

I know, and you probably do too, people who are the kindest, most thoughtful, generous, active people in a community. They are sometimes recognized for their efforts and sacrifices they have made in running charities and fund raisers.

However, these same people will outright deny the existence of a God, Jesus, their need for a savior.

In this case, these people are doomed to an eternity separate from God. Their works mean nothing. Their works cannot help them.

In contrast, there are people who are staunch believers in God, the Bible, Christ as their savior and fear for eternal damnation. These people, on the inside are true believers. However, due to whatever their life has had them experience, childhood events, cultural and social issues, mental problems, their personal character, whatever....

These people are never visibly seen doing the works listed here. They may go to church regularly, tithe, take communion etc, but they don't give candy on Halloween, don't put up Christmas lights, have signs up that say "keep off my grass", grumble at the neighborhood kids playing on the street or making noise.

We all know someone like this.

Let me ask, is this person going to be damned by Christ? Are we equipped to judge? They don't show the "works" indicated. Yet, they know Jesus. Will Christ send them to hell?

Or, should we remember this verses? God knows our hearts. Man may judge but that is not important:

Luke 16:15New International Version (NIV)
15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.

Jeremiah 17:10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 “I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give to each man according to his ways,
According to the results of his deeds.

But notice something else, as well, even Paul says that every man is judged by their works.
Can you give me the scripture reference for this please?
 
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Albion

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This raises a question. If a person who has accepted Christ by faith and a person who refuses to accept that there is a God, Christ is God, they need a savior, and basically refuses to believe the biblical accounts of anything, let alone the gospel. If these two people are working fundraiser together to raise money for a homeless shelter....ARE BOTH PEOPLE SAVED?
Of course not.

Is the non believer going to be saved by these works?
No.

.Can we agree that the believer's faith is evident by these works but the non believer is also showing works.
Sure.

I know, and you probably do too, people who are the kindest, most thoughtful, generous, active people in a community. They are sometimes recognized for their efforts and sacrifices they have made in running charities and fund raisers.

However, these same people will outright deny the existence of a God, Jesus, their need for a savior.

In this case, these people are doomed to an eternity separate from God. Their works mean nothing. Their works cannot help them.
There you go.

In contrast, there are people who are staunch believers in God, the Bible, Christ as their savior and fear for eternal damnation. These people, on the inside are true believers....These people are never visibly seen doing the works listed here. They may go to church regularly, tithe, take communion etc, but they don't give candy on Halloween, don't put up Christmas lights, have signs up that say "keep off my grass", grumble at the neighborhood kids playing on the street or making noise....Let me ask, is this person going to be damned by Christ?
Yes.

Are we equipped to judge?
Not really, but I'm going along with your series of questions and you presumed to know that the non-believers who performed good works were going to be saved, so if that's fair to speculate on, then the other side of the coin--which you also asked us to answer--is part and parcel of the same exercise. ;)

They don't show the "works" indicated. Yet, they know Jesus. Will Christ send them to hell?
That's what we are given to believe by the Bible.
 
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Rick Otto

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"To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ--their Lord and ours:" 1 Cor 1:2

There is only one "church of God", with many particular churches based on geography.
Geography, and even self assertions of authority and legitimacy attending claims of supremacy.
 
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JacksBratt

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Not really, but I'm going along with your series of questions and you presumed to know that the non-believers who performed good works were going to be saved, so if that's fair to speculate on, then the other side of the coin--which you also asked us to answer--is part and parcel of the same exercise. ;)

You have presumed wrong. The non-believer will not be saved. This is because it is the faith in Christ that is our salvation. Not any works.


That's what we are given to believe by the Bible.

This is where I would tend to disagree with you. Only Christ knows the heart of a man and why they behave the way they do. We cannot begin to judge what life has thrown at another.

I fully believe that there are going to be a lot of people who are surprised when they get to glory and they see who they are worshiping beside. People they had doomed to be damned, yet Christ kept them in the fold.

I also believe that there will be many who thought they had a room full of trophy's in heaven, for all their great works, yet will never enter into heaven to see that the room is empty.

God is just. God is merciful. God is Gracious.
 
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Albion

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You have presumed wrong. The non-believer will not be saved.
That's what I said.

This is where I would tend to disagree with you. Only Christ knows the heart of a man and why they behave the way they do. We cannot begin to judge what life has thrown at another.
That's also what I said.
 
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JacksBratt

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That's what I said.


That's also what I said.
I apologize but I thought you were presuming that I thought the non believer would be saved..

I also presumed that you were stating that the believer who had no outward evidence of works would be refused salvation.
 
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Albion

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On the second of those, I did indicate that we are not the ones who decide such things, BUT the Bible does give us reason to think that a strictly formal connection to Christ or a profession of Faith with the lips only--one that doesn't produce any change in the person's lifestyle, that is--will not meet with the Lord's approval on judgment day. Whether the few examples you gave us in your post are enough for any of us even guess at it, I suppose is open to question.
 
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samir

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Meaning you reject Orthodox or Catholic as faithfully following the ancient Christian faith taught in scripture and believed by the earliest Christians?

Incorrect. Orthodox and Catholic Christians follow the biblical gospel. Although I don't use things like statues, icons, and holy water, those are of little importance compared to getting the gospel correct. Those who love God and believe the biblical gospel are Christians even if they have some incorrect beliefs or engage in extra-biblical practices. Those who carefully avoid extra-biblical practices but choose to live in sin because they believe a false gospel that teaches any easy path to salvation are not following Christ.

Well then i would agree, but i would have to say that the non-denominational Protestants you know do not represent either what Reformers as Luther taught or multitudes of non-denominational Protestants.

I've been to almost every non-denominational Protestant congregation where I live and had numerous discussions with non-denominational Protestants online in multiple forums and found the vast majority didn't care what Christ taught and had no interest in following Christ. They just wanted to believe something easy to avoid going to hell and wanted others to pat them on the back to confirm they were right with God despite refusing to turn from sin and obey His commandments. Even Luther and other "reformers" acknowledged their teaching caused a huge decline in morality and that most of their followers who accepted their new faith alone tradition abandoned morality and lived to please their carnal desires and sinful natures.

It's not always "big" sins like fornication, adultery, drunkenness, and debauchery. For many, especially older people who have less interest in the sins of youth, their sin of choice is pride. They like feeling like they are better than everyone else and go around pointing fingers and judging people. Just like the Pharisees, they judge good Christians living moral lives and tell them they're going to hell because they won't agree with their man-made traditions. IMO, these "conservative" modern day Pharisees who pay their tithes, go to church, and pray, are worse than liberal Protestants who commit so-called "bigger" sins because they neglect the more important parts of the law.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. (Matthew 23:23, NKJV)"

I hope they heed Jesus' warning before it's too late, "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:20, NKJV)"

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (John 5:28-29, NKJV)"
 
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sculleywr

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Part of Martin Luther's problem with Rome was the fact that Popes contradicted each other. Sola Scriputra doesn't change, but the Popes have been inconsistent over the years. Just because people disagree on what the Bible means doesn't negate Sola Scriputra. But the fact that Popes have demonstrated their fallibility does negate their authority.
Sola Scriptura doesn't change????????????? Only several thousand times has Sola Scriptura changed. Every denomination of Protestantism represents a change in Sola Scriptura.

Both Sola Scriptura and Papal Supremacy have resulted in untold thousands of doctrinal innovations. That much is certain. So saying that Sola Scriptura doesn't change is like saying the wind doesn't blow.
 
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PapaZoom

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Sola Scriptura doesn't change????????????? Only several thousand times has Sola Scriptura changed. Every denomination of Protestantism represents a change in Sola Scriptura.

Both Sola Scriptura and Papal Supremacy have resulted in untold thousands of doctrinal innovations. That much is certain. So saying that Sola Scriptura doesn't change is like saying the wind doesn't blow.

Nonsense, the understanding of SS has remained consistent since the beginning. How people misapply the text is another matter. And we all know that the RCC has misapplied scripture over and over again. Which is why the Reformation was necessary in the first place and why the Orthodox broke off from RC due to it's penchant to embrace error.
 
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sculleywr

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So, as you have indicated, Jesus separates the sheep from the goats. The sheep are rewarded with eternal life because they showed generosity and kindness to those in need. Simple things like food for the hungry, clothes for the naked, a drink for the thirsty, a hug for the one who needs comfort, a visit to someone in the hospital etc.

The sheep are rewarded because they did this for these unfortunate people but were actually doing it for Christ.

The goats are punished because they didn't do it.

The goats would only have done it if it benefited them while the sheep did it without any expectation of it benefiting them.

The sheep did it out of kindness. The goats would have done it out of selfishness for their own gain.

These truths are evident by the sheep saying "when did we do these acts of kindness to You" (meaning Christ). They were oblivious to the fact that they were doing this for Christ, yet did it anyway.

The goats were also oblivious as to who they would have been showing kindness. Yet, they say that they would have IF they had known.

These examples of "works" that are evidence of our faith are not difficult. They are quite common to all people who live in a civilized society. Do you know anyone that doesn't give to charity, donate used clothes, buy a toy for a toy drive, visit sick, elderly, bring a dinner to the people who just lost a loved one, volunteer at a fundraiser? These are common actions of most communities.

This raises a question. If a person who has accepted Christ by faith and a person who refuses to accept that there is a God, Christ is God, they need a savior, and basically refuses to believe the biblical accounts of anything, let alone the gospel. If these two people are working fundraiser together to raise money for a homeless shelter....ARE BOTH PEOPLE SAVED?

Is the non believer going to be saved by these works? Can we agree that the believer's faith is evident by these works but the non believer is also showing works.

I know, and you probably do too, people who are the kindest, most thoughtful, generous, active people in a community. They are sometimes recognized for their efforts and sacrifices they have made in running charities and fund raisers.

However, these same people will outright deny the existence of a God, Jesus, their need for a savior.

In this case, these people are doomed to an eternity separate from God. Their works mean nothing. Their works cannot help them.

In contrast, there are people who are staunch believers in God, the Bible, Christ as their savior and fear for eternal damnation. These people, on the inside are true believers. However, due to whatever their life has had them experience, childhood events, cultural and social issues, mental problems, their personal character, whatever....

These people are never visibly seen doing the works listed here. They may go to church regularly, tithe, take communion etc, but they don't give candy on Halloween, don't put up Christmas lights, have signs up that say "keep off my grass", grumble at the neighborhood kids playing on the street or making noise.

We all know someone like this.

Let me ask, is this person going to be damned by Christ? Are we equipped to judge? They don't show the "works" indicated. Yet, they know Jesus. Will Christ send them to hell?

Or, should we remember this verses? God knows our hearts. Man may judge but that is not important:

Luke 16:15New International Version (NIV)
15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.

Jeremiah 17:10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 “I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give to each man according to his ways,
According to the results of his deeds.


Can you give me the scripture reference for this please?
Romans 2:6 says that.

However, Scripture never says anything about those people who are outside of the boundaries of what the Church can know. So how God judges those who cannot know from the Church Who God is, well that's outside of our wheelhouse. What of the man who does the best he can while living in the jungle? We don't know.

What we know of how God judges men is based on the depictions of the Judgment Seat in Matthew and Revelation. None of them ask "did you accept Jesus Christ into your heart?" We know that "To whom much is given, much is required. to whom little is given, little is required." God's requirements for salvation are not overbearing or impossible, because He makes it possible for us to meet them by empowering us through the Spirit.
 
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sculleywr

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Nonsense, the understanding of SS has remained consistent since the beginning. How people misapply the text is another matter. And we all know that the RCC has misapplied scripture over and over again. Which is why the Reformation was necessary in the first place and why the Orthodox broke off from RC due to it's penchant to embrace error.
No, it hasn't. It has not been consistent, because of several things:

1. There is no consistent definition of which passages are clear or unclear
2. There is no consistent definition of what Scripture is.
3. There is no consistent definition of how Scripture is to be used.

The Reformation was not necessary, because necessity implies that there wasn't already a proper Church following the proper Truth. If there wasn't a Church that was presenting the whole Truth, then there wasn't a Truth to reform to. And if there was, there was no need to reform the church you are in. Rather, just become part of the Church which is presenting the whole Truth.

Sola Scriptura isn't consistent. If it were, then everyone who believes it would come to a consistent outcome. Consistency leads to consistency.
 
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Albion

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I've been to almost every non-denominational Protestant congregation where I live and had numerous discussions with non-denominational Protestants online in multiple forums and found the vast majority didn't care what Christ taught and had no interest in following Christ.
Even if that were true, confining yourself to 5% or so of the Protestants isn't much of a way to learn what's out there with Christians who don't belong to either the RC or EO denominations. :rolleyes:
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Even though I'm Protestant, I have nothing in common with most non-denominational Protestants I know and don't even consider them Christians ...
For all your claims to superior knowledge over your fellow Protestants, to slander them as not being Christian, you don't even know what a Christian is. Even the Catholics call the Protestants Christian and in the end think them saved. So what good does all this knowledge do if it results in such bitter animosity to those you disagree with?

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.
 
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JacksBratt

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Romans 2:6 says that.

Says what?

However, Scripture never says anything about those people who are outside of the boundaries of what the Church can know. So how God judges those who cannot know from the Church Who God is, well that's outside of our wheelhouse. What of the man who does the best he can while living in the jungle? We don't know.

Ya, I'm not talking about these people. Every human will have had enough observable proof of God for their judgement by God. That will be totally Gods call.

But, not my point.

What we know of how God judges men is based on the depictions of the Judgment Seat in Matthew and Revelation. None of them ask "did you accept Jesus Christ into your heart?" We know that "To whom much is given, much is required. to whom little is given, little is required." God's requirements for salvation are not overbearing or impossible, because He makes it possible for us to meet them by empowering us through the Spirit.

It will never use terms we use today. They are modern words for Biblical details. So, ya, not going to hear or read " did you accept Christ into your heart".

God's requirement for salvation is simple, "believe" in Christ, "believe" He was Christ the son of God, "believe" He can forgive your sins, "believe" He died for you, basically believe.... and.... that takes one thing.....Faith.

This is what saves us, Faith to believe that what Christ said is the truth and we are saved by our faith in His Mercy and Grace.

I fail to see the relevance of the "too whom much is given" quote. That is expected all of us. Our talents, gifts, wealth, time.... In any event, these are not to question our salvation. They are to determine our rewards in our guaranteed final home in paradise.

Like you said before, you cannot sin away salvation. You can also not lose it though not doing what you are capable of doing.

This is the only unforgivable sin:

Mark 3:28-29New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28 “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—
 
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sculleywr

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Says what?



Ya, I'm not talking about these people. Every human will have had enough observable proof of God for their judgement by God. That will be totally Gods call.

But, not my point.



It will never use terms we use today. They are modern words for Biblical details. So, ya, not going to hear or read " did you accept Christ into your heart".

God's requirement for salvation is simple, "believe" in Christ, "believe" He was Christ the son of God, "believe" He can forgive your sins, "believe" He died for you, basically believe.... and.... that takes one thing.....Faith.

This is what saves us, Faith to believe that what Christ said is the truth and we are saved by our faith in His Mercy and Grace.

I fail to see the relevance of the "too whom much is given" quote. That is expected all of us. Our talents, gifts, wealth, time.... In any event, these are not to question our salvation. They are to determine our rewards in our guaranteed final home in paradise.

Like you said before, you cannot sin away salvation. You can also not lose it though not doing what you are capable of doing.

This is the only unforgivable sin:

Mark 3:28-29New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28 “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—
The problem is that believe, or Pistis, in the Greek, is not a one time thing. Pistis, or Pisteuo (verbal form), both come in the Perfect Continuous tense, something that doesn't really have a corollary in the English language. It means that it is something that must carry through continuously, and not just an action done once that has future effects.

The closest one could get to properly translating the word Pisteuo is to use the word "Faith" as a verb. In the English, the closest we have is faithfulness. To Pisteuo in God, you can't just do it once. You must live in Pistis continuously. Until your Pistis has the same nature as the Pistis of God, salvation, Sozo, is not yet complete in you. This is why Paul speaks of salvation in two different ways. We are saved, for we have been forgiven. That is even reflected in how we refer to salvation in the song which follows the receiving of Communion in the Orthodox Church:

We have found the true Light!
We have received the heavenly Spirit!
We have found the true Faith,
worshiping the undivided Trinity,
for He has saved us!
In terms of forgiveness, we are saved. However, salvation is also continuous, as Paul said, we "are being saved", as well. Certainly, we have received the forgiveness of God, but like any present we receive, we must put that gift to use if we expect to benefit from it. My mother received a Kitchenaid mixer for her birthday from my father. Now, if my mother were to put that mixer in the attic and never use it, would she have really benefited from that gift? Of course not! It will profit her nothing in a box in the attic. If she wishes to benefit from that gift, she must use the mixer, for the mixer will not use itself. Likewise, God will do nothing in our lives in any way which would compromise our free will. Certainly, there are many benefits of the gift of salvation. Christ Himself even said we would do greater things than He did. That was not said only of the Apostles, but of all the Saints. The reason we do not see miracles in the same way is because we are like Peter trying to walk on the water, to whom Christ would say "oh ye of little faith".

Salvation's greatest gift, however, is for us to become like God, through Christ. The person who has reached complete salvation is the person who has become, through the Grace which God is, what God is by nature. This is the fullest realization of what the Psalmist said in the Scriptures: “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High.” (Psalm 82:6) Now this does not mean we become EQUAL to God, for we will never be equal to Him. What it means is that we have rid ourselves of the Passions, those feelings of greed, lust, and pride, and replaced them with the Virtues by way of the Grace God gives us. This is the end of salvation, the glorification of the man to become what God intended from the beginning for us all to be.

This is why we are both saved in the past, being saved today, and we will be saved in the future.

I was saved 2000 years ago when God became man, and willingly gave up His life on the Cross to defeat death
I am being saved today in my constant struggle.
I will be saved in the future when God glorifies my body and rids it of all imperfections, both the physical colitis, anemia, and pain of this earth, and the spiritual lusts and sins which still linger in my flesh.

But He will not save the unwilling man. He respects us and loves us enough to allow us to be the deciding factor, not because we are more powerful than He, but because He loves us enough not to be overbearing. Certainly, God could save any person, with or without their will. But in His love for mankind, He is willing to let us choose to love Him.

This is why you cannot simply sin your salvation away. It is nothing like some kind of quota of sins or good deeds. There is no cosmic scale of justice upon which your good deeds are measured against your evils, for just as there are men like the thief on the cross who lived sinful lives and came to their senses in the last hours, there are also men who have lived what we would call virtuous lives, but for whatever reason, they gave up their virtue in the end, rejecting the God who they seemingly served their whole lives. It is not for us to judge them or their salvation. There are men whose good deeds were all done in secret, and so we only ever saw their evil. For all I know, any person who may seem to be unquestionably evil may be in heaven, and many who have seemingly declared the Faith their whole lives may be in torment in eternity.

Like a divorce, though, it is no secret to the two who split up why the relationship fell apart by the time one leaves Christ. We who are not party to the goings on between Christ and one who rejects Christ after seeming years of devotion may not know why one would reject Christ and turn to Atheism or Islam or whatever. What I do know is that the relationship which would have saved the man is no longer there in many cases. And Christ, though it pains Him, will not force someone to come under His wing, whether or not he had been there before.

It is not like he was plucked suddenly out of the flock. This sheep can choose to leave. That is what free will means. Free will is always free. It can change. Sure, it isn't very comforting. IT certainly would be easier for me to stick to the Eternal Security doctrine I was raised to believe from the time I was a child. But just like the difficult truth of the existence of evil in the world, some things must be accepted if we are to accept that man is given free will.
 
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