DV spinoff

[Hetta]

Reading Avniel's account of his parents, I'm thinking what the appropriate response would be. A 300 pound man knocking his wife out just isn't acceptable. What if he were to take hold of her wrists, pin her down on the bed, and just hold her there with enough body-weight on her where she couldn't do anything? Keep her there however long it took for her to either be completely calm, or crying, or anything except angry or violent? I wonder how the police or a court would react to that? That might be non-aggressive enough for the courts to side with the husband, but not harmful to his wife. If she knew if she hit him, she'd be pinned down for half an hour, that might stop that behavior fast, hopefully. I suppose leaving is another alternative, temporarily when you are angry, or breaking up the family. If I were in that situation, I'd probably go for the pin-down option, honestly.

Fortunately, I wasn't raised in a violent home aside from my brother and I getting into fights when we were little. We were very close in age. I'm also glad my wife and I aren't violent and don't engage in calling each other names or using profanity at each other. I've got one boy and rest are girls, and there is barely anything that resembles physical fighting among the children except for the toddler climbing on people and playing too rough.

But when I was about 9, I got an assigned seat on the bus next to this wild little 6-year-old. She just kept hitting me. It was an impossible situation to be in, because I couldn't hit a little girl, and she just kept hitting me most of the time. I even went to the principal about it, and he wasn't very helpful or compassionate about the situation at all. I did grab the girl's wrist at times, then her cousin sitting in front of me wasn't too happy about that.

That seems to be a common male attitudes to males who complain about female on male violence. It's right there in the OP too. Nobody should feel contempt for a person who is being bullied - no matter how 'small' the woman is or how 'big' the man, but right now, from attitudes I see, I perceive men to have the worst problem in dealing with this issue.

 

[Avniel]

No one should tolerate another person (especially one who is supposed to be loving them) using violence against them.

What you're posting about, though, that's not "in defense". When there's a size/strength/mobility difference--that is something that should be considered. Not even speaking of husband and wife (because, to be honest, that just isn't something I want to imagine).....two men of comparative size fighting in a bar is one thing.....an able-bodied man strong-arm robbing a quadriplegic in a wheel chair is a whole other thing (for an example).

Why not the have the consequence be something besides more violence? Villianizing people does no good......that doesn't bring about change. Attitudes need to be adjusted (IMO).....and people (especially boys/men) need to be allowed (and invited) to express themselves in other ways besides anger/violence (and that needs to be accepted). I heard on the radio yesterday---"we are expecting our males to only live as part of their selves" (and the "emotional" part is to be shut down---unless it's anger). That is expecting you all to be less than fully human. And that's not right...

But do you see what happens when a man expresses himself in all honesty. Do you have any idea what it's like to watch a man go from Jamaican educated bad man to the type of man that hangs his head down whenever he would go outside. I've seen my father get punched, kicked in the privates and then my mother's mom would call him and he would run from the phone. I'm not shutting down emotions I am exposing an emotion........that's sad. I used to pity my father and I hated him out of disgust not anger.

I hate that people always think that men have any emotions I sit back and talk to my boys about a lot. Men have all sorts of emotions and feelings and there are a good deal of us that share them with others. I have never met a man that was incapable of sharing their feelings other then anger. I think that's a stereotype and part of the issue. I feel anger, happiness, excitement, sadness, joy, disappointment and so many other emotions just because I am not going to cry in front of people I don't trust and don't know doesn't mean I don't feel. People want these overly sensitive men.

I think there is a movement in america to get rid of people's natural emotional response. How can you ask someone that just was hit because of some relationship spat why are you angry. A woman that get's hit wouldn't be asked why is she angry. Nobody would question why her reaction would be one of violence. If Ray Rice was a woman and her husband charged her and she dodge the first strike and slapped him and when he came back she knocked him out........................nobody would ask her why she was angry in fact she would be celebrated.

1) Is it a natural reaction to become angry when someone hits you? Are men not even allowed to become angry when they are hit by someone? What you are promoting is a society that is restrictive of emotions........if someone hits you there is a moral right you have to be angry.

2) We live in a society that accepts certain forms of violence and see's certain fairness in fighting. I don't believe in the fairness of violence the reality is a fight has a winner and looser that's it, the only rule. If I get into an altercation and I am there with 10 of my friends all 10 of them better jump in.


When ever you hit a person you are entering into a you vs them situation. When you hit someone you are placing their body at risk for harm or even death. Fighting and hitting someone isn't a light thing to do, it's not a no biggie.

Women want men in this country to have so little self respect for themselves that they don't even get angry when women hit them.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Avniel, you're giving the impression that you want to fight violence with violence.

 

[Hetta]

Men have so little respect for other men who are bullied that they don't even get angry when women hit those men.

 

[Avniel]

Avniel, you're giving the impression that you want to fight violence with violence.

Of course I never even agreed with the MLK approach and I approved the rioting in ferguson. Yes I believe that fighting violence against violence can never be morally questioned. I believe we all have a natural right to defend our person, property and family against harm to the best of our ability. I think it's immoral to ask people like Malcolm X and Nat Turner why are they angry and why do they feel they have a right to use violence against violent oppression. If a police officer illegally fires a weapon at a armed civilian with a legal right to protect themselves.............should that civilian not fire a shot back or should they just allow themselves to be killed?

New York man dies after chokehold by police - CNN.com

The saddest part about the story and what upsets me the most is this man begged for his life until he died. He did not fight back yet he was still killed.........did he have a right to fight for his life?

Anytime violence is used against a person or a people the reaction given can not be question morally. Also you can not victimize the oppressor/aggressor.

 

[Hetta]

And yet MLK was the person who turned everything on its head. But he was wrong, I guess.

And I guess the scripture about turning the other cheek - to which he adhered - was wrong too.

Jesus and MLK wrong. Gandhi wrong. CND wrong.

The list is too long. Outta here.

 

[Avniel]

Men have so little respect for other men who are bullied that they don't even get angry when women hit those men.

I think society doesn't get mad at those women. Who was mad at Beyonce's sister? Who was mad at Ray Rice's wife? Nobody. To make matters worse as a black man all a woman has to do is call the police and tell them a man hit them.

I have a cousin I talk about him all the time here. ****Recently(venting ignore has nothing to do with the thread but it makes me feel better) she called me and told me about how she was going to make him never see his children and another man would get called dad. I tried to explain to her that children have a need to know their father, adults hurt and have pain then they move on but children are the ones that are truly affected. She became irate with this and threatened to hire hit men, at that point I asked her if hit men took EBT cards as payment. She threatened then to come with psycho bob(her nickname for her knife) at that point I told her I would call the hospital if I see her near my block and she would get the help she's been running from. At that point I blocked her number and my cousin stayed with me before of course he got back with her. I blocked her number, she was trying to reach him and I wouldn't answer any of her calls(it's blocked). She had a friend call me up and say she knows where my charger is and they messed it up. Of course I told her oh great new car for me, I love my insurance and hung up. Then I got a text about how someone was going to snatch up my daughter and other very disgusting threats..........if you don't believe me I have the screen shots and I certainly will send them in to prove my point would post them but they are too graphic. He got back with her and our friendship will never be the same. *******


Sorry about that but I think you understand the sort of woman we are dealing with. She has hit him, stabbed him, ruined his clothes, stole his money and just in general is a very wicked wicked woman. Do you know how many times my cousin has gone to jail for domestic violence when he didn't want to come home. If he get's into a custody battle, which he has had, those domestic violence cases will not allow him to maybe even see his children. However she is the one that has threatened other's children, her own children and she even threatens to kill herself. He got a message on facebook by her ex girlfriend(yep I don't homie), telling him how she still has sex with her, how she has changed all his children diapers and he found out that she was a prostitute at one time. It's all be verified to everyone but him and it makes sense.

If she wakes up today and wants him in jail he's going to jail end of the story. He doesn't even have to hit her................do you think that encourages women to be abusive?


I don't have respect for punks, I don't have respect for those that have so little self respect they would allow someone to put them in a dangerous situation and won't even fight to get out of that..........we know legally typically is out of the question so at least defend yourself physically and remove yourself emotionally. If you allow someone to beat you up you don't deserve my respect.

 

[Avniel]

And yet MLK was the person who turned everything on its head. But he was wrong, I guess.

And I guess the scripture about turning the other cheek - to which he adhered - was wrong too.

Jesus and MLK wrong. Gandhi wrong. CND wrong.

The list is too long. Outta here.

MLK would have never been approached and worked with if there was not a presence of violence. Let's not be confused there has never been law changes in this country in regards to blacks without the presence of violence.

MLK got his teaching from Gandhi not the bible, he studied Gandhi. MLK did not turn everything around what he did was beg for rights that should have been demanded. Malcolm X demanded the rights and took up his own personal defense..............Malcolm X made MLK approachable. Towards MLK's end he did start to become more militant and less passive which is speculated as the reason he was killed.

Malcolm and Martin, closer than we ever thought - CNN.com

"In the last years of their lives, they were starting to move toward one another," says David Howard-Pitney, who recounted the Capitol Hill meeting in his book "Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X, and the Civil Rights Struggle of the 1950s and 1960s."

"While Malcolm is moderating from his earlier position, King is becoming more militant," Pitney says.

I think people use christianity to excuse being a punk and accepting oppression. The reality is Luke 22:36 says "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

We are not to allow ourselves to be abused, beat up and have our lives(not our person) disrespected. That's not christianity that is a culture that finds it acceptable for women to hit men.

 

[Angeldove97]

I grew up witnessing my father being physically abused by my mother. She would hit him, talk down to him and just in general disrespect him. My father would punish me when he knew I didn't do anything and his answer always was "some must suffer for the good of others."

Are you making a connection between:
1) Your father being physically abused and be disrespected by your mother

And...

2) Your father punishing you BECAUSE he was physically abused?

If so- I do think that people who are abused (mentally, emotionally, or physically) will have a higher tendency to then abuse others or seek our abusive relationships.

(I was spanked as a child- I'm not necessarily against spanking kids (a pat on the bottom or hand at the most), but I did end up in two very abusive relationships in my late teens. I wonder if there's a connection or not)

I typically see women hitting men and walking away and I typically loose respect for the men.

Why do you lose respect to the men? I think regardless of your gender a person shouldn't use violence to get what they want and a victim shouldn't be made to feel bad for not fighting back.

A woman should not hit a man in a violent way .... A man should not hit a woman in a violent way.

Do you have less respect for your Dad because he was abused? Do you have more respect for your Mom because she abused your Dad?

 

[Angeldove97]

I will say this about my family...
My grandparents were both Slavic... my parents are both Slavic. My grandfather did some pretty horrible things to my grandmother and my Dad has done some pretty bad things to my Mom (but my Mom can dish it out too).

Both my Mom and Grandmother always told me to never marry a Russian guy.

So I didn't...

My Mom gave me grief about my husband (she used the fact that he is shorter than me as a reason... I think it may have been because he wasn't Slavic) and my Grandmother told me (after I had gotten engaged) that I was a bad daughter for not letting my parents choose a Russian guy for myself.

Okay- so you have abusive husbands and tell me not to marry a Russian guy... but then when I listen to you, you get upset me with. OKAY! *sigh*

(In the end everything has worked out fine- my Mom and Grandmother learned to like my husband and he's NOT abusive to me at all)

 

[Avniel]

Are you making a connection between:
1) Your father being physically abused and be disrespected by your mother

And...

2) Your father punishing you BECAUSE he was physically abused?

If so- I do think that people who are abused (mentally, emotionally, or physically) will have a higher tendency to then abuse others or seek our abusive relationships.

(I was spanked as a child- I'm not necessarily against spanking kids (a pat on the bottom or hand at the most), but I did end up in two very abusive relationships in my late teens. I wonder if there's a connection or not)



Why do you lose respect to the men? I think regardless of your gender a person shouldn't use violence to get what they want and a victim shouldn't be made to feel bad for not fighting back.

A woman should not hit a man in a violent way .... A man should not hit a woman in a violent way.

Do you have less respect for your Dad because he was abused? Do you have more respect for your Mom because she abused your Dad?

No I am not making that connection I never even really thought about that. My mother often would physically abuse me and I can't even stomach seeing a child get spanked. I have to either walk away or if I have to stay I might shed a tear or two. Even on TV I can't watch children get spanked so I don't know if I would make that connection.

The reason my father would punish me when he knew I did nothing wrong was so that it didn't turn on him. He was such a coward he allowed my mother to control him to the point he could beat his children when he knew they were innocent. He was so afraid of my mother and my grandmother he would hit me vs saying "no I was right here that never happened."

I think for me what happened is I grew a bias to certain women. My mother would tell me as I grew older certain things that she went through and I would disqualify people based on certain situation that happened to them. My mother was sexually abused by a man that went to her church. The moment I find out anything of that nature I run from that person. My mother came from a single parent household I run from women that don't have relationships with their father. I would say I have avoided being in abusive relationships because I avoid women that have been damaged. My wife was really my first relationship and prior to that I had a two week rule and I tried to have sex with as many women as possible.....my wife was the first woman that showed me that there are different types of women but she didn't have anything on her list that matched my mother's childhood. An example of how I am one day I was watching my nephew and his father told me to make him write a paper. So his older cousin finishes early and he's supposed to do his work. He becomes upset at 8 that he can't play yet and he starts to cry, I start to cry and I let him go play and told his father I forgot to give him the work. Of course my wife told me I was hustled but I can't discipline a child.
Of course my wife knows this and her father didn't really discipline he more so talked so it works out for us.

The reason for the loss of respect I feel is for the lack of a backbone. The lack of self respect to actually value yourself more then the person putting their hands on you. There are people that are a victim and their choice was taken then there are people that allow themselves to become victims. I don't respect anyone that doesn't have enough in them to stand up for themselves.

I agree there is no reason to raise your hand and hit anyone except that person has charged or attacked them and they are still in striking distance. If you hit someone and you are standing there to hit them again yeah I think you shouldn't be surprised when that person feels as though you are a threat.


No I don't respect my mother more then I respect my father. I pity my father more and have more of a hatred(which God is working on me every year) towards my mother. I respect sane, healthy men and women that stand up for their principles and love themselves.

 

[ValleyGal]

Men have so little respect for other men who are bullied that they don't even get angry when women hit those men.

Hmm. Isn't this generalizing and making a blanket statement, the very thing some people here get on my case about? So next time I generalize in reference to gender, am I still going to get called on it?

Not all men have such little respect for other men. Men likely DO get angry when they see women hit men, but they don't act on it because of the social repercussions of acting on it. I get angry when I see a man beating on a woman...and since men have emotions too, it stands to reason that they would get angry if a woman hits a man or even if a man hits another man - unless of course, there are gender differences in this, which is what I've been saying all along - and told by some here that I am wrong.

 

[Avniel]

I will say this about my family...
My grandparents were both Slavic... my parents are both Slavic. My grandfather did some pretty horrible things to my grandmother and my Dad has done some pretty bad things to my Mom (but my Mom can dish it out too).

Both my Mom and Grandmother always told me to never marry a Russian guy.

So I didn't...

My Mom gave me grief about my husband (she used the fact that he is shorter than me as a reason... I think it may have been because he wasn't Slavic) and my Grandmother told me (after I had gotten engaged) that I was a bad daughter for not letting my parents choose a Russian guy for myself.

Okay- so you have abusive husbands and tell me not to marry a Russian guy... but then when I listen to you, you get upset me with. OKAY! *sigh*

(In the end everything has worked out fine- my Mom and Grandmother learned to like my husband and he's NOT abusive to me at all)

I think this is the way I handled it. My wife and my mother are totally opposite and my mother met her 2 weeks before our wedding. I did it like that on purpose I didn't want them involved in that process. Then my father tries to give me this relationship advice huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh nope I'm good you can keep that to yourself.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

This is what I think about the reality check.
1) I think the first problem starts with the man who made the choice to marry an abusive woman. I think we have to first look at that man and hold him accountable.

BULL. Because that has to hold true for women, too. And now you're making the victim to be the problem, NOT the abuser. And that's BULL.

I had NO CLUE that my ex was abusive UNTIL I married him. How should *I* be held accountable for that?

 

[ValleyGal]

BULL. Because that has to hold true for women, too. And now you're making the victim to be the problem, NOT the abuser. And that's BULL.

I had NO CLUE that my ex was abusive UNTIL I married him. How should *I* be held accountable for that?

I think this is a good point. It's easy to put too much responsibility onto the victim. Imo, there is no reason anyone should be hitting anyone else. So no matter what someone does, there is never justification for abuse.

Personally, I do take a little - not much, but a little - responsibility for marrying my abuser. I "felt" or sensed something amiss - enough to ask his sons whether he had ever abused their mom. They said no, but once when he was drunk, he had hit his mother in law. I excused that as an issue with alcohol. But it had been a dozen years since he had been divorced, so I let it go....but over that dozen years, he grew an anger issue. Pair that with NPD, and it's a great recipe for abuse. I was the first "abused"....and something inside me nagged and I ignored it. That is the extent of my responsibility. I should have listened to my intuition and not married him to start with.

But not all abusive marriages are made of spouses who had that same nagging voice. Sometimes abuse can start long after "I do" and sometimes it can creep in so slowly that the spouse is unawares. Avniel, your dad possibly never would have married her if he'd seen abuse coming.

 

[Avniel]

BULL. Because that has to hold true for women, too. And now you're making the victim to be the problem, NOT the abuser. And that's BULL.

I had NO CLUE that my ex was abusive UNTIL I married him. How should *I* be held accountable for that?

Can we curve the crudeness I was simply voicing my opinion you can disagree or not agree but please let's be respectful and learn from each other rather then attack. If this conversation is too personally to you I think you might need to step back from it.


The abuser is the problem the person that is getting abused needs to examine themselves and find out why they made the choice that they made. The reality is we all are responsible for who we allow to be in our lives and who we make leave. You had to accept your ex, you had to marry your ex and I assume this was free will?

This is coming from someone that had a gun to his head over a sofa.....when we pick people to be in our lives and it ends sour we have to look into ourselves and wonder why that person was their to start with or we run the risk of repeating it.

We live in a society that feels like a victim taking personal responsibility is blaming the victim.....it's really not it's about learning from mistakes.


Your ex abused you he did it on purpose he was abusive you made mistake marrying him..............as the kids uptown bronx say #facts

 

[mkgal1]

But do you see what happens when a man expresses himself in all honesty. Do you have any idea what it's like to watch a man go from Jamaican educated bad man to the type of man that hangs his head down whenever he would go outside.

I don't consider that him expressing himself honestly---I see that as him "not rocking the boat". I don't think it's right.....I think his true voice should have been heard (with love---not judgement).

Is your father still alive, Avniel? Do you have a relationship with him? Because our "eyes" and what we understand as children is far different than what we can comprehend as married adults (especially once we've had children).

I've seen my father get punched, kicked in the privates and then my mother's mom would call him and he would run from the phone. I'm not shutting down emotions I am exposing an emotion........that's sad. I used to pity my father and I hated him out of disgust not anger.

That is sad....and it's completely wrong that your father (and you...and any other children) had to live that way. How does your disgust and contempt help, though?

I hate that people always think that men have any emotions I sit back and talk to my boys about a lot. Men have all sorts of emotions and feelings and there are a good deal of us that share them with others. I have never met a man that was incapable of sharing their feelings other then anger. I think that's a stereotype and part of the issue. I feel anger, happiness, excitement, sadness, joy, disappointment and so many other emotions just because I am not going to cry in front of people I don't trust and don't know doesn't mean I don't feel. People want these overly sensitive men.

That is great that you and your friend's can share emotions/feelings with each other. I was speaking more about what's culturally acceptable (in general)....and, as a whole, there are a lot of general attitudes that send the message (wrongly) that a male "isn't a man" if he has other emotions besides anger (fear is what I'm mainly thinking of).

I think there is a movement in america to get rid of people's natural emotional response. How can you ask someone that just was hit because of some relationship spat why are you angry. A woman that get's hit wouldn't be asked why is she angry. Nobody would question why her reaction would be one of violence. If Ray Rice was a woman and her husband charged her and she dodge the first strike and slapped him and when he came back she knocked him out........................nobody would ask her why she was angry in fact she would be celebrated.

My point behind bringing up emotions/feelings wasn't about the one on the receiving end---I was speaking of the one that is resorting to violence instead of expressing themselves in another (more appropriate) way. Often men resort to violence when what they're *really* feeling (deep down) is fear and frustration---but anger/violence is much more acceptable if one wants to stay within that "macho box".

 

[mkgal1]

I approved the rioting in Ferguson. Yes I believe that fighting violence against violence can never be morally questioned.

Why would you approve of that?

Doesn't it make sense to you that is presenting the people that are racist with even *more* fuel for the fire of hatred? It widens the gap *more* and builds more contempt. How is that "moral".....or "good"?

 

[mkgal1]

I have a cousin I talk about him all the time here. ****Recently(venting ignore has nothing to do with the thread but it makes me feel better) she called me and told me about how she was going to make him never see his children and another man would get called dad. I tried to explain to her that children have a need to know their father, adults hurt and have pain then they move on but children are the ones that are truly affected. She became irate with this and threatened to hire hit men, at that point I asked her if hit men took EBT cards as payment. She threatened then to come with psycho bob(her nickname for her knife) at that point I told her I would call the hospital if I see her near my block and she would get the help she's been running from. At that point I blocked her number and my cousin stayed with me before of course he got back with her. I blocked her number, she was trying to reach him and I wouldn't answer any of her calls(it's blocked). She had a friend call me up and say she knows where my charger is and they messed it up. Of course I told her oh great new car for me, I love my insurance and hung up. Then I got a text about how someone was going to snatch up my daughter and other very disgusting threats..........if you don't believe me I have the screen shots and I certainly will send them in to prove my point would post them but they are too graphic. He got back with her and our friendship will never be the same. *******


Sorry about that but I think you understand the sort of woman we are dealing with. She has hit him, stabbed him, ruined his clothes, stole his money and just in general is a very wicked wicked woman. Do you know how many times my cousin has gone to jail for domestic violence when he didn't want to come home. If he get's into a custody battle, which he has had, those domestic violence cases will not allow him to maybe even see his children. However she is the one that has threatened other's children, her own children and she even threatens to kill herself. He got a message on facebook by her ex girlfriend(yep I don't homie), telling him how she still has sex with her, how she has changed all his children diapers and he found out that she was a prostitute at one time. It's all be verified to everyone but him and it makes sense.

If she wakes up today and wants him in jail he's going to jail end of the story. He doesn't even have to hit her................do you think that encourages women to be abusive?


I don't have respect for punks, I don't have respect for those that have so little self respect they would allow someone to put them in a dangerous situation and won't even fight to get out of that..........we know legally typically is out of the question so at least defend yourself physically and remove yourself emotionally. If you allow someone to beat you up you don't deserve my respect.

There are a lot of (wrong) attitudes that are built into that (IMO). And those are the sorts of situations that *feminists* are trying to change (for the good of everyone).

One thing that needs to change is that the only way one can be abused is physically. It *should* be realized that being terrorized and threatened is abuse (and people should have protection against that).

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Can we curve the crudeness I was simply voicing my opinion you can disagree or not agree but please let's be respectful and learn from each other rather then attack. If this conversation is too personally to you I think you might need to step back from it.

When it comes to domestic violence, it is ALWAYS personal and no, I won't step back from it, especially when someone is saying stupid things.

The abuser is the problem the person that is getting abused needs to examine themselves and find out why they made the choice that they made. The reality is we all are responsible for who we allow to be in our lives and who we make leave. You had to accept your ex, you had to marry your ex and I assume this was free will?

This is coming from someone that had a gun to his head over a sofa.....when we pick people to be in our lives and it ends sour we have to look into ourselves and wonder why that person was their to start with or we run the risk of repeating it.

We live in a society that feels like a victim taking personal responsibility is blaming the victim.....it's really not it's about learning from mistakes.

Your ex abused you he did it on purpose he was abusive you made mistake marrying him..............as the kids uptown bronx say #facts

I don't even know what you're really trying to say here. There was no way I would've known that he was abusive. Many abusive relationships are this way. Sometimes there's a niggling, like ValleyGal says, but that STILL doesn't take the heat off the abuser.

If you want to sit there and think that you are somewhat at fault for the gun at your head, you go ahead and do so, but don't put that blame on the rest of the world. Don't say "it was your fault" to me just because you think it was your fault.

I absolutely will NOT take responsibility for the actions of my ex. HE and HE ALONE is responsible for them. Attitudes like yours only actually make abusers think they're in the right.