Drug-Sorcery

[intojoy]

does drug sorcery include GMO?

What about weed?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Gx,

You are certainly free to go physicians and drugs for healing if you choose. But it is not necessary to go to such great lengths to try to justify doing so. I do not judge or condemn you, my brother, for your personal convictions. To our own master we stand or fall. Who are we to condemn a fellow servant? We each have different degrees of trust in YHWH. Sometimes we have different degrees of conviction about what we believe to be true or right. So be it.

I believe I have presented a clear teaching from Scripture. You disagree with going to YHWH alone for healing, and are convinced that physicians and drugs are ok. So be it. Peace to you, my brother!

And Shabbat Shalom

Nathan,

All know that others are free to believe as they wish - just as you are free to be against all forms of medicine or doctors - but addressing those issues are not the same as saying one doesn't have freedom for belief. It does not take much to deal with scripture in its context/setting - and IMHO, it not necessary trying to repeat/reiterat as much as possible (as you're doing) that to use physicans or doctors is somehow wrong if you truly believe others have freedom to disagree. It is easy for anyone ready/willing to justify a previously assumed belief without being ready and willing to address the total council of the Word of the Lord - and that is said in light of where there have already been some lengths you've gone trying to support justification against doctors or medicine of all kinds based on the select number of verses you chose ....essentially making any claim or talk about the lengths others go to justify a scriptural view as a bit inconsistent if seeing where it has been applied.

Personal convictions will always vary on issue - but those convictions have to be based on study of what is seen scripturally - and there's nothing wrong with others choosing to note where some things should either be considered...or, in gracious challenging (when it is invited in a discussion with initial questions), choosing to note where some views may not be fully in line with all of Biblical History. No one condemns you for where you may seem off in conviction - but neither are people bound to not note disagreement/share why if it seemed others were asked to share...and it was disagreed with.

The Word of God is what matters, that is what needs to be addressed. No one condemns you for not going to physicians, but it is not something others will see as accurate when saying the scriptures as a whole condemn them alongside medicine - and it is not necessary acting as if others cannot address the issue when you may try to bring it up however forcefully you feel led. If it seems one is using scripture incompletly/outside of it's context, there's nothing wrong with sharing on it - and if one's going to make a stance, it is proper to be able to deal with scriptue with scripture - otherwise the WOrd is not honored as the Lord intended.

People who go to doctors/physicians or use what He made in nature are not for the mindset of not going to YHWH alone for healing - and thus, others seek to address it when it assumed those for medicine (even if they believe strongly) don't believe in God's healing provision. Others are free to note where it is not the case folks somehow trus in the Lord more because of being against physicians. IMHO, you already utilize things in regards to physicians or medicine and things made by man from the food to other dynamics - and there's no way to escape that. Whether you are willing or able to see that is another isssue.

We each must give an account to the Lord and face Him as the Judge - and that's present in all discussions - but it is inconsequential whether or not we stand or fall to our own master (based on Romans 14 and I Corinthians 4) when there's honest discusison occurring on seeing how we live things out. Since no one said you were not accounatable to your own master, it doesn't seem necessary to bring up an argument on that as if it was not in view Of course you're free to feel as you wish - for differing degrees of trust in the Lord will never go outside of the fact that the Lord calls all to accuracy in presenting what He has said - and there's nothing accurate claiming others who are for doctors/medicine do not trust in the Lord as much as those without it. That is where the testimony of scripture is important before making claims which can be akin to unbalanced scales.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether you condemn or approve of something - just as it is inconsequential whether I or others do the same. What matters is the testimony of scripture/Biblical history for the believer. If one wishes to have Biblical discussion for verification on whether the view is correct, that's one thing - but when one is already convincned and merely wants affirmation of their view, there's no need bringing the issue up since the entire spectrum of God's Word will not be addressed.

Shabbat Shalom, Bruh

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What about weed?

Add coffee to the list as well - alongside candy and kids going to the pediatrician or getting anti-biotics. Much of those issues have been tackled within Judaism for some time when showing what the Torah says in affirmation of medicine practiced within proper boundaries.

 

[kellhus]

I'd like to know if it's ok to take things like vitamins and cough drops. What about life saving antibiotics? What about a severely schizophrenic individual who can't function without medication? At what point does it become drug sorcery?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I'd like to know if it's ok to take things like vitamins and cough drops. What about life saving antibiotics? What about a severely schizophrenic individual who can't function without medication? At what point does it become drug sorcery?

Many of the questions you asked are things which are not really considered when making wholescale condemnations without actually showing how things play out practically. One, if really against all things natural which help the body (or things naturally made into products to help), should go the entire way with being against products such as coffee, tea, honey and even what you noted with cough drops.

 

[Nathan Ethan]

Gx,

My brother, I was attempting to let the topic at hand go. In my opinion, the Scriptures I have listed speak for themselves. Further discussion of the topic will not be profitable to either of us. You presented your views, and I fully understand them. I clearly understood from your previous post what you thought about my convictions concerning going to YHWH alone for healing. You went into great detail. It was not necessary to write another post!

I understand that you think I take Scripture out of context, I approach certain verses with pre-conceived notions, I do not compare Scripture with other Scripture, and I am not presenting the whole counsel of Elohim on the topic. Did I miss anything?

Even though some people might take offense at suggestions like you have made, I have not taken offense. I could make the same insinuations about your convictions, but I prefer not to, for I desire peace between us. My belief is that you actually have difficulty with the teaching of the Scriptures that I presented, and not with me personally, and I understand that. So be it. Peace to you always, my brother!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Gx,

My brother, I was attempting to let the topic at hand go. In my opinion, the Scriptures I have listed speak for themselves. Further discussion of the topic will not be profitable to either of us. You presented your views, and I fully understand them. I\! clearly understood from your previous post what you thought about my convictions concerning going to YHWH alone for healing. You went into great detail. It was not necessary to write another post!

Nathan,

I understand where you are coming from - as I was also leaving the issue alone with concluding thoughts. To be clear, you actually didn't understand the views fully based on the conclusions you made which were opposite of what others were saying - for claiming others do not believe in going to the Lord alone when they disagree with you isn't the same as what was said (and thus, it's not beneficial to assume a view is understood simply due to how one responded to it if accurate presentation isn't covered) - and of course, what's said is said. As said before, you're free to believe what you wish - just as others are when it comes to sharing fully on what the scriptures say in the setting/context they're in. Unless others are still debating the topic specifically, there's no real argument claiming it is being discussed furher as that would be an inaccurate
scenario.

It is not necessary to respond again with another post - as I don't intend to discuss further after we already discussed - although if you choose to do so, that is your choice. But as I said, I already moved on.

Even though some people might take offense at suggestions like you have made, I have not taken offense.

I could make the same insinuations about your convictions, but I prefer not to, for I desire peace between us. My belief is that you actually have difficulty with the teaching of the Scriptures that I presented, and not with me personally, and I understand that. So be it. Peace to you always, my brother

Not taking offense really is a moot issue, seeing that others can easily say the same on you when it comes to views you have - but that was never in view, just as I have not taken offense. Disagreement is not a matter of offense - nor is noting (When a discussion begins/questions are asked on the issue as you did) a matter of being offended. It is simply stating a view.

Thus, as said before, don't read more into things than what was present - or read PAST them in assuming there's no peace between others simply because someone responds to a question you asked as strongly as you may feel. I don't do that with you - and there's no need doing otherwise My belief is that you already had a view you wanted to present and have difficulty dealing with scripture opposite of that (or going further in examination of what a scripture says you may choose to zero in on when you've made up your mind) - for the scriptures you presented are not a problem when the context is addressed and it is never personal dealing with the whole council of God.

Again, Shabbat SHalom

 

[visionary]

I'd like to know if it's ok to take things like vitamins and cough drops. What about life saving antibiotics? What about a severely schizophrenic individual who can't function without medication? At what point does it become drug sorcery?

Yeshua talked to probably the most severe case of schizophrenia, whose 'persons' amounted to legions,.... and the person was healed... not medicated by Yeshua.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Pharmakeia probably refers to the initiatory rites preparatory to the revealing of Bathea ("deep secrets") in the Gnostic mystery cults.

To this day, Buddhists and Hindus use drugs in order to prepare for and to meditate on various "cosmic secrets" and "mysteries."

 

[Hoshiyya]

I'd like to know if it's ok to take things like vitamins and cough drops. What about life saving antibiotics? What about a severely schizophrenic individual who can't function without medication? At what point does it become drug sorcery?

Let's not get all silly like the JW's here. Medicine is medicine, and indeed the Messiah by example legalized wine. In fact wine was never illegal. And wine didn't even serve a medical purpose necessarily, it could be for enjoyment, unlike antibiotics.

 

[visionary]

Let's not get all silly like the JW's here. Medicine is medicine, and indeed the Messiah by example legalized wine. In fact wine was never illegal. And wine didn't even serve a medical purpose necessarily, it could be for enjoyment, unlike antibiotics.

but it is good for the stomach..

1 Timothy 5:23
New International Version (©2011)
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

 

[Hoshiyya]

but it is good for the stomach..

hence the word "necessarily":

wine didn't even serve a medical purpose necessarily, it could be for enjoyment, unlike antibiotics.

 

[visionary]

hence the word "necessarily":

wine didn't even serve a medical purpose necessarily, it could be for enjoyment, unlike antibiotics.

Red wine benefits include its property to improve our cardio-vascular health. Red grapes contain extreme amounts of flavonoids which aid in strengthening our heart, lowering the chances of clot formation, lowering the levels of bad and increasing the levels of good cholesterol. Also, red grapes are a great source of reservatrol, which lowers the risks of cancer as well as slows down considerably the process of nerve cells destruction and assists in fighting against such diseases as Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s diseases. The studies in Canada also showed that antioxidants in red grapes are useful for good dental health.
Medicinal Value of Red Wine

 

[Hoshiyya]

Red wine benefits include its property to improve our cardio-vascular health. Red grapes contain extreme amounts of flavonoids which aid in strengthening our heart, lowering the chances of clot formation, lowering the levels of bad and increasing the levels of good cholesterol. Also, red grapes are a great source of reservatrol, which lowers the risks of cancer as well as slows down considerably the process of nerve cells destruction and assists in fighting against such diseases as Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s diseases. The studies in Canada also showed that antioxidants in red grapes are useful for good dental health.
Medicinal Value of Red Wine

cheers

your link seems to not be very pro-wine at all though, it seems to give the idea of the medicinal value of wine a few compliments before going on to say why its not that good after all.

 

[SilverBlade]

Just a quick note: I am not a Messianic follower

Reading through this, I'm wondering if the Bible referred to medically prescribed medicines like antibiotics which fight off infection, or does it refer to exotic drugs like heroin and the like?

Also, does it refer to the people making the medications, or the people who use them for medically necessary reasons?

I was diagnosed with Non-Hodgekins Lymphoma in 2005, and I had to take 8 rounds of Chemotherapy (CHOP+R) plus a bone marrow transplant.

According to the 'extreme' interpretation of this, would I be going to hell because I went through all of this?, or I should have let the cancer kill me? I personally do not believe that Yahweh wants anyone to forgo doctor advice and let ailments kill them when it's unnecessary (my personal belief that if you let something kill you when you have complete power to stop it, it's equal to suicide, as it was preventable)

 

[Nathan Ethan]

Just a quick note: I personally do not believe that Yahweh wants anyone to forgo doctor advice and let ailments kill them when it's unnecessary (my personal belief that if you let something kill you when you have complete power to stop it, it's equal to suicide, as it was preventable)

You state here that you already have your personal beliefs about doctors and medicine. Then what the Scriptures may or may not teach about physicians and drugs would be irrelevant. And answering your questions would be pointless, since you already have your mind made up.

 

[pat34lee]

Just a quick note: I am not a Messianic follower

Reading through this, I'm wondering if the Bible referred to medically prescribed medicines like antibiotics which fight off infection, or does it refer to exotic drugs like heroin and the like?

Also, does it refer to the people making the medications, or the people who use them for medically necessary reasons?

I was diagnosed with Non-Hodgekins Lymphoma in 2005, and I had to take 8 rounds of Chemotherapy (CHOP+R) plus a bone marrow transplant.

According to the 'extreme' interpretation of this, would I be going to hell because I went through all of this?, or I should have let the cancer kill me? I personally do not believe that Yahweh wants anyone to forgo doctor advice and let ailments kill them when it's unnecessary (my personal belief that if you let something kill you when you have complete power to stop it, it's equal to suicide, as it was preventable)

You think of doctors as healers, and to some extent they are that. But they are also agents of the pharmaceutical industry, who make money treating, not curing, diseases.

Say a major manufacturer makes drugs for some type of cancer. It extends life and treats symptoms for several years as long as you keep taking it. That is guaranteed income for them. What if there is a natural cure? Total, with no side effects, no fear of remission. They couldn't make money from it, and would do anything to keep you from using it, from ridiculing it to paying off government agencies such as the FDA to outlaw it.

One reason you don't hear more about natural cures is that so many who end up trying them have already gone through the medical system so long that their disease has progressed too far for them to be effective.

 

[Bjornke]

Rescinded by Bjornke without request voluntarily.

 

[pat34lee]

This isn't entirely true. There hundreds of people and dozens of organizations committed to finding a cure for cancer. These organizations typically receive public donations, and, large contributions from "big" business including, pharmaceutical companies. If the cure was similar to a vaccination, then the pharmaceutical companies would probably make more money because then everyone who was born and alive would flock to get it.

If the cure were in a drug, they might make it, but only if they could profit long-term by it. A permanent cure denies them future generations of paying customers. Why do you think that they started pushing drugs for so many things lately? They take drug A (depression drug), add sodium or something, call it drug B, and claim it treats something new (anxiety). New patent and 12 years with no generic competition. It is not quite so simplistic, but that is the general idea.

If the cure were something like massive doses of vitamin C, what profit could they make?
Vitamin C cured polio during the epidemic of 1948 - 49

 

[dnc101]

Again, first hand experience, I agree with Pat. An excellent example:

Chelation. It works when modern medicine fails on so many things I won't even try to list them. It worked almost miraculously for me. Yet I've had doctors react with denial, dismissiveness and anger when it is even mentioned. They hate it because it does work! And it is something that really should be done under their supervision, so they would make some money off of it. But they won't, because the AMA and their colleagues would crucify them!

Dan C

You think of doctors as healers, and to some extent they are that. But they are also agents of the pharmaceutical industry, who make money treating, not curing, diseases.

Say a major manufacturer makes drugs for some type of cancer. It extends life and treats symptoms for several years as long as you keep taking it. That is guaranteed income for them. What if there is a natural cure? Total, with no side effects, no fear of remission. They couldn't make money from it, and would do anything to keep you from using it, from ridiculing it to paying off government agencies such as the FDA to outlaw it.

One reason you don't hear more about natural cures is that so many who end up trying them have already gone through the medical system so long that their disease has progressed too far for them to be effective.

If the cure were in a drug, they might make it, but only if they could profit long-term by it. A permanent cure denies them future generations of paying customers. Why do you think that they started pushing drugs for so many things lately? They take drug A (depression drug), add sodium or something, call it drug B, and claim it treats something new (anxiety). New patent and 12 years with no generic competition. It is not quite so simplistic, but that is the general idea.

If the cure were something like massive doses of vitamin C, what profit could they make?
Vitamin C cured polio during the epidemic of 1948 - 49