Drug-Sorcery

[Nathan Ethan]

"Drug sorcery" (pharmakeia) is forbidden in the Scriptures in the Original Greek Text of the New Testament, and is one of the reasons for YHWH's impending judgments listed in Revelation. It is a very serious sin to YHWH, that if practiced and not repented of, will be punished by YHWH by Millennial exclusion, banishment to the Lake of Fire, and later, exclusion from the New Jerusalem on the New Earth that will be created.

Here are the three occurrences of the word "pharmakeia" in the Greek New Testament in their context:

"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, drug-sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of Elohim." (Gal. v)

"The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their drug-sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts." (Rev. ix)

"Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer. “And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer; and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your drug-sorcery." (Rev. xviii)

Here is another Greek cognate, "pharmakos" (drug sorcerer), and it's two occurrences in the Greek New Testament:

"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his Elohim and he will be My son. “But for the cowardly and untrusting and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral persons and drug-sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Rev. xxi. 7-8)

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs and the drug-sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." (Rev. xxii. 14-15)

 

[visionary]

does drug sorcery include GMO?

 

[Nathan Ethan]

does drug sorcery include GMO?

Ethically, I believe changing plants and animals by genetically engineering them is wrong. It is an attempt by man to improve on the food Elohim has created for man, and most of it is done to increase the volume of plant and animal production for the sake of financial profit.

Does the production of GMO's fall under "pharmakeia"/drug sorcery? I really do not know at this point. I am inclined to think that it is related and is a form of scientific "sorcery", so that is enough for me personally to disapprove of it and strive to avoid the consumption of GMO's.

Concerning the consumption of GMO's, I can only say that it is very difficult for us to completely avoid consuming such food products in our modern society. Since most of us do not personally raise all of the crops and animals that we eat, we are in many cases reduced to trusting ingredient labels and the word of others. At the same time, striving to avoid GMO's by eating only "organic" foods I think is a good thing, if we are able to do so--both health-wise and for the sake of conscience.

These are my opinions on the subject. Someone else may have more light to shed on the topic, and I would welcome more input.

 

[visionary]

What about the use of herbicides and pesticides... wouldn't they also fall under the same category then?

 

[kellhus]

I'm going to go tell my pharmacist that she's a "drug sorcerer". She'll get a huge kick out of that.

 

[visionary]

According to W.E. Vine’s expository dictionary of New Testament Words (page 1074), the word SORCERY comes from a Greek word, PHARMAKIA - used as a noun, it “signifies a sorcerer,” one who uses drugs, potions, spells, enchantments, as in Rev. 21:8.

The english word for drugs, pharmacy, comes from this same root. Drugs and potions have traditionally been used in witchcraft and satanic rituals to induce deeper subconscious states which enable persons to have fellowship and communication with demons. Realizing the satanic relationship with drug use helps us to understand why abusers of drugs experience such bondage and depravation. No where in the Bible or in history have drugs been used to bring people closer to God - they have always been used in relation to bringing people closer to evil powers and demonic influences.

 

[visionary]

In the newspapers, radios and TV new reports, the ravages of drugs are continually linked with the headlines of associated death, robberies, and depraved behavior. According to scripture, these happen to be the identical characteristics of HaSatan.

John 10:10 “The thief [Satan] does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.”

I think there is the evil inspiration behind the destructive nature of drugs, legal or illegal, and marketing glides over the side effects like its all good. When people are under its influence, they believe the lie. The downward spiral of medication is well documented but carefully cloaked in chemical jargon, that it is extremely difficult to decipher but can be noted in the person taking it.

1 Corinthians 10:21 “You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons.”

Thus we are dying from our lack of knowledge in God's healing food and medicines.

 

[Nathan Ethan]

I'm going to go tell my pharmacist that she's a "drug sorcerer". She'll get a huge kick out of that.

I think making a joke out of any of this is very inappropriate. If you do not take the Scriptures seriously on this topic, that is your personal choice. However, to make light of what YHWH teaches on this topic and to post here accordingly is a different matter altogether. It is wrong.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

"Drug sorcery" (pharmakeia) is forbidden in the Scriptures in the Original Greek Text of the New Testament, and is one of the reasons for YHWH's impending judgments listed in Revelation. It is a very serious sin to YHWH, that if practiced and not repented of, will be punished by YHWH by Millennial exclusion, banishment to the Lake of Fire, and later, exclusion from the New Jerusalem on the New Earth that will be created.

I would think that not sorcery as it concerns drugs would not include all forms of herbalism/the use of what the Lord made available in nature and the elements since there were many things that have helped others across the world - and within Israel, many remedies based on plants that the Lord designed. Only when it's done outside of His boundaries do things become problematic...

For my family - from Latin America and the West Indies - medicine itself is a big deal. My own family practiced it for some time long before some herbal remedies became popular in the medical world...and there are still others which are amazing. One I ended up learning of in Jamaica during a trip there 2 yrs ago was something called Lemon Grass ....(known for therapeutic properties and altering mood....similar to what incense does since it alters the mood of the body via smell). Currently, it's not grown on a commercial scale in Jamaica...but I so wanted to take some home after seeing it grown on a farm there---and wondering "

Being involved in the Charismatic movement, it was interesting to see what occurred when it began to break out into the West Indian world...and, for that matter, in other places. Asia being one of them. Some have been of the mindset that they can only see these movements exploding as Asian with their religious background are highly superstitious ..and thus, they don't feel the need to trust in medicine.

Though I do not agree with all assessments made about ministries in Asia---be it those against the Charismatic movement or those for it---I wanted to note that I do think the reasons for certain routes being taken in the Asian community (especially with pharmacy) are often due to cultural concerns. In example, there are some Southeast Asian cultures that have a deep distrust for many things modern, including modern medicine, doctors and hospitals. They often rely on their herbal and home remedies...as well as those things tied to the supernatural such as witchdoctors, shamans, incantations, prayers to the dead, etc. Of course, Asia in general is very mystical and believing in the Supernatural--as many of my friends/family have noted when going on Mission trips and business endeavors over there-----but often, many of the remedies do work at times. There was a study awhile back where somebody researched into this a bit, and found that some of the refugees from Southeast Asia were struggling with many health issues because they were not seeking the proper medical attention. This ethnic bias also hindered the new immigrants from getting help from law enforcement, because the refugees often do not trust the police, or the government.

 

[kellhus]

I think making a joke out of any of this is very inappropriate. If you do not take the Scriptures seriously on this topic, that is your personal choice. However, to make light of what YHWH teaches on this topic and to post here accordingly is a different matter altogether. It is wrong.

Why is it inappropriate?

 

[dnc101]

This is a very interesting thread. I head an outreach ministry for people with chronic health problems. I can tell you from personal experience and from talking with others that, while modern medicine can do much good it can also be murderously evil. And I chose those words carefully.

I know 1st hand of many cases where doctors prescribing the wrong drugs, drugs they had no business Rx-ing in the first place; and insisting the patient stay on and "just give them a chance" destroyed peoples lives in ways you cannot imagine. Tests are given which have one purpose- not to find what is wrong but to justify a "procedure." The tests, drugs and procedures have destructive side effects even if they don't kill or ruin you outright.

I used to be an Emergency Medical Technician. One of the things we did whenever transporting a patient from home was to bring all their meds. I've literally filled medium sized grocery bags with prescription drugs for one person. They would have to assign one nurse in the ER just to sort the meds. Often the nurse would show me the few drugs that were for health problems, and a small tableful of drugs that just dealt with the side effects of other drugs.

My personal view on medicine is I see a doctor as little as possible. Actually, I go to a PA- I won't go to any of the doctors here. If I need a doctor I have them refer me and I'll travel 150-200 miles to see a good one. And I take as few meds as possible, and if there are side effects I DC the med. I won't take anything for the side effects of something else.

I have orders for limited efforts by my bedside, so IAW Washington law I cannot become a money mill for them to try and suck the last resources from my family just to kill me slowly instead of letting me go.

These are my views aside from the aspect of trusting God which you raise here. To completely separate ourselves from medicine and place our lives and health completely in God's hands- should we do this? Messianic Christian Science ... Good question.

Dan C

 

[Gxg (G²)]

"Drug sorcery" (pharmakeia) is forbidden in the Scriptures in the Original Greek Text of the New Testament, and is one of the reasons for YHWH's impending judgments listed in Revelation. It is a very serious sin to YHWH, that if practiced and not repented of, will be punished by YHWH by Millennial exclusion, banishment to the Lake of Fire, and later, exclusion from the New Jerusalem on the New Earth that will be created.

I think what should be noted with Drug Sorcery is that those who did so in that time period were ones who were known to worship false gods....even though there are similar realities in our times today.

Within the industry of abortion, for example, the concept behind the pill is something that was present in the times of the Bible with witch doctors making pharmacy medicine to sterilize the women when they didn't want to have children. Will Ford did a good series on the issue, if interested:

EXMinistries Will Ford Truth Behind Abortion I

​

https://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/h...lse&aff_id=0&locale=en_us&ui=1&os_ver=6.1.1.0</DIV>

• Sorcery in the Bible, Pharmakeia and Modern Medicine
• JBEM: Ethical Issues In Pharmacy - Biblical Medical Ethics, Inc

That said, I'm not certain if we can condemn all aspects of pharmacy or medicine via drugs in the way we do things today.

Again, modern medicine has a big place in our family, as my mother is an OB-Gyn and we were encouraged to see the benefits in medicine while not trusting it wholeheartidly. My Great-Grandfather (103yrs currently) would often grow things in his back-yard garden and my Great-Grandmother would do the same with development of herbal medicine.

For many skeptical of modern medicine, many believers have noted the need to use naturopathic treatments that were available to others when many things were not allowed. Many have noted that often when it comes to utilizing things others have always done throughout history....such as learning of what the Lord has provided in the simplicity of creation (i.e plants, herbs, fruits, etc) and using them to create differing means of healing methods. Much of it has worked often and many within the medical field have noted how much medicine seems to be shifting toward a naturopathic perspective. Osteopathic medicine is also on the rise, as it concerns ministering healing through adjustment of the body (i.e. massage, addressing bone joints, stretching, etc).

For others in places where modern medicine has not been able to be as available as it is in the U.S, utilizing osteopathic medicine has been beneficial since one can work naturally with what's available rather than feel dependent on an infrastructure that may not be available quickly. My friend, who is from Jamaica and in the field of medicine, has seen this often growing up when her family lived in poor areas---and yet simple things helped them stay in shape. Osteopathic medicine emphasizes the interrelationship between structure and function of the body and recognizes the body's ability to heal itself......

Using creation to help people in the place of medicine is no different than what happened with others such as George Washington Carver all over again, as the man only had nature to work with in keeping many people healthy in the SOuth--and he did a myriad of amazing things that still astound many....and to him, it was all about going to what the Lord prescribed in Genesis 1 when he gave man fruit/vegetables to eat in order to be sustained. Many of those in the old school still go with that, trusting in the Lord to heal them/keep them as they seek to be healthy and utilize what he made....

George Washington Carver actually spoke on the issue in-depth one time ...seeing the extensive myriad of ways that he witnessed healings through the natural world as the Lord Himself gave him many of the RADICAL ideas he had via botany and agriculture and finding extensive ways to make others whole by his God-Given creativity.

Dr. George W. Carver made many medical contributions, including using a combination of oil derived from peanuts, called Penol, together with physical therapy to restore the use of atrophied limbs of Polio and infantile paralysis victims. The oil was utilized by massaging it into a patient’s atrophied muscles. This proved to be somewhat helpful..and this could be attributed to Carver’s advanced message techniques he acquired at Iowa State while serving as an athletic trainer. One of his most surprising peanut-related contributions to mankind was his extraction of a peanut oil which aided in restoring wasted tissues. To prove the value of the oil, he took photographs of the deformed limbs of children before treating them and then after a year of treatment. The remarkable improvement evidenced by the pictures started a stream of ailing children to his laboratory, and, with the help of his students, all were treated

As he said in one of his correspondance letters on December 16, 1934, as he wrote to the mother of James Hardwick:

My esteemed friend Mrs. Hardwick,

Thank you so much for your beautiful card with its Greetings. I have not written to you in a long time, but my thoughts and prayers have been for you daily. Our patients have usurped almost all of my spare time. God continues to speak through the oils in a truly marvelous way.

I have patients who come to me on crutches, who are now walking 6 miles without tiring, without either crutch or cane. (one man).

My last patient today was one of the sweetest little 5 year old boys, who 3 months ago they had to carry in my room, being paralyzed from the waist down. When I had finished the massage today, much to our astonishment he dressed himself and stood up and walked across the floor without any support. He is a handsome little fellow and so happy that he is improving, (and I too).

I said Our patients, because I feel that your prayers help to make it possible.

Since last Dec. 31st I have received 2020 letters, plus the people who come every day and almost every night for treatment. It is truly marvelous what God is doing.

Continue to pray for me please that I may be a more fit medium through which He can Speak....

I am so gratefully yours,

G.W. Carver 43

​

Most people are often not aware of how many healing revivals he was in support of---and how often he'd ask his church to pray/intercede for him so that the miraculous would occur. One can go here for more and see directly what his thoughts were...and if interested, there was actually a thread elsewhere on the subject that I was able to have with others within the Faith movement on George Washington Carver and how his faith literally impacted countless others. It can be found here.


Ancient practitioners identified what plants possessed various healing properties. In some cases, they attributed these properties to higher powers, but in large part, they accepted the medicinal powers of plants at face value -- the plants did what they did. As scientific inquiry developed, however, nothing could be taken at face value. Once science had a grasp on the interactions between drugs and the body, it became possible to synthesize natural compounds through chemistry. Consequently, science and tradition diverged. In the first edition of the American Pharmacopoeia, published in 1820, 70 percent of drugs were plant-based. In the 1960 edition, 5.3 percent were of plant origin [source: Royal Society of Medicine].



For articles:

• 
  Plants in the development of modern medicine." Proceedings of the Royal Society of Medicine.
• Bakx, K. "The eclipse of folk medicine in western society"

As divergent as folk medicine and modern medicine became over time, chemists have occasionally doubled back to the traditional roots of medicine in order to move forward...and for many getting fearful of the medicial industry failing, it's simply going back to what was present in the Book of Acts again.


Granted, traditional medicine is not to be feared. There are variations of healing and differing ways that the Lord heals others. Some of them can be based more so on naturalistic means and some on Supernatural ones----though the reality, all of them are GIFTS of the Lord that cannot exist without His provision. The brilliance that another came up with to develop technology for healing others through things such as surgery..or, for that matter, utilizing what God created in the world of plants/herbs and fruits that all had healing elements within them comes from the hand of Christ.

Nothing good can exist apart from him....and I think sometimes people try to make distinctions where there are none. Having a mother who is a doctor and who always loved studying others who were believers within the world of science, it was a trip to see others who saw the power of the Lord through medicine...and saw how often that was a means of the Lord healing JUST as much as His healing via answering a prayer/immediately healing someone on the spot. For Jesus, who is the sustainer of all things according to Colossians 1 and Hebrews 1, is the source of all healings and always has been....

Dr. Benjamin Carson, who was/is one of the greatest doctors and physicans of all time and has led the way in many cutting edge scientific breakthroughs, has often noted how it was GOD alone who responsible for enabling him to see how he could heal the human body MEDICALLY...even when he was doing surgery, for it was the Lord who guided His hands. As a strong believer in Christ, the man always amazes me whenever he goes to conferences and alerts others as to how the POWER of Jesus is what makes his work possible....and how all others experience the Grace of the Lord to do as they do, even if they try to deny Him

 

[Nathan Ethan]

I would think that not sorcery as it concerns drugs would not include all forms of herbalism/the use of what the Lord made available in nature and the elements since there were many things that have helped others across the world - and within Israel, many remedies based on plants that the Lord designed. Only when it's done outside of His boundaries do things become problematic...

I think "natural" vitamins and herbal remedies for minor illnesses have their place. But where are the "boundaries"?

At what point are we wrongly turning to man and the sorcery of modern drugs for healing instead of YHWH? Are we wrong and sinning in YHWH's sight if we go to physicians and rely on drugs for healing of physical and mental illnesses?

Personally, I am convicted by the teaching of the Scriptures not to go to physicians and to abstain from the use of modern medicine for healing. My reasons for this is from my understanding of the following Scriptures:

"In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa became diseased in his feet. His disease was severe, yet even in his disease he did not seek YHWH, but the physicians." (II Chron. xvi. 12)

"Then YHWH struck the child that Uriah’s widow bore to David, so that he was very sick. David therefore inquired of Elohim for the child; and David fasted and went and lay all night on the ground. The elders of his household stood beside him in order to raise him up from the ground, but he was unwilling and would not eat food with them." (II Sam. xii. 15-17)

"Yet when they were ill, I put on sackcloth
and humbled myself with fasting.
(Psa. xxxv. 13)

"Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the assembly and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of YHWH; and the prayer offered in trust will restore the one who is sick, and YHWH will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed." (Jas. v. 14-16)

I believe Job's statements should be taken as a primary example of how I think we should view illness. If you review Job's speeches, he told his "friends" several times that his physical illness and suffering was ultimately from Shaddai's hand. While he acknowledged YHWH's sovereignty and power over his illness, at the same time he placed his life in YHWH's hand, even to the point of death:

"Why do I put myself in jeopardy
and take my life in my hands?
Though he slay me, yet will I trust in Him." (Job xiii. 13-14)

And then there are the many, many examples of our Messiah healing people of sickness, fever, deformities, blindness, deafness, muteness, lameness, mental illnesses and demon possession and even making people alive again that were dead!

In Matthew 28 we are told by Him, "All power in Heaven and on Earth has been given to Me". Is this true? Can Messiah heal us now, just as He healed many while He was on the Earth? Yes, He can. Will He? That is not the issue.

The real crux of the matter is this: Are we willing to entrust our lives to Him and our Father YHWH as to a faithful Creator? Are we willing to trust in Him alone for healing, even if the possibility of Him choosing not to heal us may cost us the death of our physical bodies? Will we refuse doctors and drugs and instead "call for the elders of the assembly"? In a word, no. The elders themselves do not trust in YHWH alone for healing, so we do not go to them. (Generally speaking--there may be exceptions to this, I hope)

We have been trained by outside influences to go to other men and their drugs for healing. Most believers will give anything they possess, and even go into debt to pay for physicians and drugs when they are seriously ill. As the Adversary said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life." (Job ii)

Trust like Job's is very rare. As Messiah stated, "When the Son of Man comes will He find trust on the Earth?"

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think "natural" vitamins and herbal remedies for minor illnesses have their place. But where are the "boundaries"?

At what point are we wrongly turning to man and the sorcery of modern drugs for healing instead of YHWH? Are we wrong and sinning in YHWH's sight if we go to physicians and rely on drugs for healing of physical and mental illnesses?

I think when we start with the wrong questions we arrive at the wrong conclusions - for asking "What are the boundaries" is not the same as "What did the Lord demonstrate in the scriptures?" - similar to the ways many young adults ask "Well, how far can I go in this relationship physically?" (looking for an imaginary line - and thinking they're good because they thought anything short of sexual intercourse was "okay" because the Bible didn't mention it specifically....when they should have been looking for Biblical principles on what the Bible already laid out for what would be wise)

And with that said, I think it's Biblical to note that where he condemned witch doctors and others making potions to glorify their gods isn't the same as saying all forms of medicine or physicans are automatically not of the Lord - or things that harm others.

And the same thing goes for the dynamic of healing happening through means others deem to be "natural" - even though what GOd has provided for in Creation (when he gives SUPERNATURAL insight on how to combine elements/resources in the natural world together to make solutions that have healing properties), that is truly a means of Divine Healing.

The pastor of the church I do Youth Ministry at (as he grew up within the Faith Movement and who often taught on the subject at my church when we'd practice teachings from WOF)...he actually spoke on this here. Also, more was shared in MJ: Is Taking Medicine less Biblical than simply praying...??? - and on the issue, I always find it interesting when it comes to the issue of others being whole sale against natural products made by industry - for when it comes to things as simple as DRINKING COFFEE, what others don't realize is that it is DRUG meant to alter your body's chemistry whether people wish to acknowledge it or not---and something I find ironic when people make statements such as "Christians on Drugs/Supporting Pharmacognosy? Please, I don't need drugs and God's all I need...."----and yet every morning or at some point when they're tired, they take something to get them feeling better rather than just "walking by faith

Something that always comes to my mind - for those saying that medical means are not things that the Lord utilizes, I'm always reminded of 2 Kings 20:

2 Kings 20/2 Kings 20

Hezekiah's Illness

1 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."

2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, 3 "Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

4 Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him: 5 "Go back and tell Hezekiah, the leader of my people, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD. 6 I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.' "

7 Then Isaiah said, "Prepare a poultice of figs." They did so and applied it to the boil, and he recovered.

8 Hezekiah had asked Isaiah, "What will be the sign that the LORD will heal me and that I will go up to the temple of the LORD on the third day from now?"

9 Isaiah answered, "This is the LORD's sign to you that the LORD will do what he has promised: Shall the shadow go forward ten steps, or shall it go back ten steps

​

Hezekiah immediately begins to pray/seek God earnestly, not accepting the fate of death. God's addition suggests that prayer in the face of terminal illness in never inappropiate. But Isaiah also directs Hezekiah to apply a poultice of figs to the boil. Some scholars point to the figs as a medical prescription and attribute the healing power to the poultice. The Bible does not condemn resorting to medical remedies; but, in this, case, to think that a poultice, by itself could cure a terminal illness seems faulty. As I understand it, God is the Author of ALL HEALING benefit...and the application of the poultice appears to suggest that human medical aid and means is NEVER inappropiate either or a demonstration of a LACK of faith. God alone can heal: He does so by miracle means, by natural means, and by human means. None should be demeaned as unworthy. People who healed/did many things also became sick (like Paul----but didn't mean he was against medicine), and people who seemed to be far gone CAME BACK when simple faith/God's working took place.

For another example that seems noteworthy, one of the greatest prophets who healed others supernaturally also saw God's power through natural means as well...as 2 Kings 4:38-44 notes when there was famine in the land and wild gourds were given to eat. The prophets prepared a community dish by looking for vegetables and other spices to be included in the stew...but one found some that were poisonous and the people were harmed by them, yet they needed something to eat--and as that was the only thing around, Elisha responded by saying "Bring me some flour." They brought him some flour and Elisha poured it into the pot of stew. After he had done this, the stew would immediately cease from being poisonous and was now being purified and safe to eat. After Elisha had realized the results from his efforts, AShe said: "Serve it to the people so they can eat." Many commentaries surmise that the wild gourd was probably a melon called a colocynthus which grows by the Dead Sea. It looks and smells pleasant, but is a poisonous wild fruit. The young man was not familiar with the fruit and out of ignorance, made a grave mistake. Such a mistake could have cost many lives and many very sick people, but God in his grace can overcome the mistake. . If someone mistakes some poison for food the natural law of chemical reaction in our bodies result in sickness and possibly death....but in desperate times, the Lord has often utilized what is natural to do that which is supernatural.....


Growing up in WOF with a mother who was an OB-Gyn doctor but also believed in divine healing/faith, my mother always loved the example of Luke, who is considered by many indicators to be the author of the Book of Acts even though Acts does not specifically mention its author since the author was the same person who wrote the THIRD Gospel (Acts 1:1-3 (in Context) Acts 1),....and who was a CLOSE ASSOCIATE of PAUL in the "We" sections of the Book, who followed alongside Paul/witnessed many of the creative/powerful miracles and healings accompanying Paul....and for that matter was a man of culture, as indicated by his literary style and universal outlook, and who had an interest in medical matters. I have seen God do supernatural healing and have also known God to do miracles in surgery that astounded even the surgeon. I appreciate doctors because they have saved my life and the lives of so many others...and my only problem is when those opposed to the doctrine of healing via atonement seem to forget that doctors and medicine have not shown any perfect healing, but have often given us side effects and put people in worse conditions than before. But on the other hand, thank God for Christian doctors who rely on the Lord to help them.

 

[Nathan Ethan]

Gx,

I understand your position and your beliefs. But we cannot gather from the examples of Hezekiah and Elisha that "natural means" were the source of the healing. We do not have the right to make such a conclusion. YHWH healed Hezekiah and the prophets of Elisha. Both Hezekiah's boil and the prophet's stew were said to be deadly. The poultice and the flour of themselves did not prevent the impending death, YHWH did.

There are two main facts in the Scripture that I posted that I believe most of us do not seriously and honestly address:

1. King Asa is given as an example of wrong behavior. He went to physicians instead of YHWH.

"In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa became diseased in his feet. His disease was severe, yet even in his disease he did not seek YHWH, but the physicians." (II Chron. xvi. 12)

2. We are commanded to call for the elders of the assembly when we are sick, so that they may anoint us, pray for us, and through the prayer of trust YHWH may heal us and make us well.

"Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the assembly and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of YHWH; and the prayer offered in trust will restore the one who is sick, and YHWH will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed." (Jas. v. 14-16)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Gx,

I understand your position and your beliefs. But we cannot gather from the examples of Hezekiah and Elisha that "natural means" were the source of the healing. We do not have the right to make such a conclusion. YHWH healed Hezekiah and the prophets of Elisha. Both Hezekiah's boil and the prophet's stew were said to be deadly. The poultice and the flour of themselves did not prevent the impending death, YHWH did.

Nathan,

The reality is that God's Word is the standard - and althougn you've presented your argument, you've really not shown in any of your examples where the Word was ever dealing with all forms of man-made drugs as a negative or things made from natural means to heal. Arguing past what is seen in Hezekiah and Elisha goes past what the text says when it came to the Lord noting to them directly what to do and using natural means to do so. Either we believe the text - or we don't and make it say what we want it to say. Ultimately, as James 1 notes, "Every good and perfect gift comes from above" - and God is the source of any good that occurs - so it's arguing past the obvious when it comes to saying natural means were not what were used by the Lord to Heal. By His ability all good things came into existence - and through what men did, it was used to help.

There's nothing saying at all that the flour or the ointment Elisha and Hezekiah made were not sources of healing - and one would have to do begging the question to assume BEFORE SHOWING it true that the natural elements present did not have properities already in them. This is not logical, nor something that lines up with history itself since the same thing has already occurred before

There are two main facts in the Scripture that I posted that I believe most of us do not seriously and honestly address:

1. King Asa is given as an example of wrong behavior. He went to physicians instead of YHWH.

"In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa became diseased in his feet. His disease was severe, yet even in his disease he did not seek YHWH, but the physicians." (II Chron. xvi. 12)

Context, Bruh -as Asa was CURSED due to his sins against the Lord and not following him with all of his heart - and thus, it didn't matter whether or not he went to physicians.

2 Chronicles 16:4
2 Asa then took the silver and gold out of the treasuries of the Lord&#8217;s temple and of his own palace and sent it to Ben-Hadad king of Aram, who was ruling in Damascus. 3 &#8220;Let there be a treaty between me and you,&#8221; he said, &#8220;as there was between my father and your father. See, I am sending you silver and gold. Now break your treaty with Baasha king of Israel so he will withdraw from me.&#8221; 4 Ben-Hadad agreed with King Asa and sent the commanders of his forces against the towns of Israel. They conquered Ijon, Dan, Abel Maim[a] and all the store cities of Naphtali. 5 When Baasha heard this, he stopped building Ramah and abandoned his work. 6 Then King Asa brought all the men of Judah, and they carried away from Ramah the stones and timber Baasha had been using. With them he built up Geba and Mizpah.

7 At that time Hanani the seer came to Asa king of Judah and said to him: &#8220;Because you relied on the king of Aram and not on the Lord your God, the army of the king of Aram has escaped from your hand. 8 Were not the Cushites[b] and Libyans a mighty army with great numbers of chariots and horsemen[c]? Yet when you relied on the Lord, he delivered them into your hand. 9 For the eyes of the Lord range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war.&#8221;

10 Asa was angry with the seer because of this; he was so enraged that he put him in prison. At the same time Asa brutally oppressed some of the people.

11 The events of Asa&#8217;s reign, from beginning to end, are written in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel.
​

It was well known in ancient times that sometimes disease were direct in correlation with the sins others committed against the Lord. The criticism of Asa's visit to the physicians was not a general indictment of medicine...for Asa's problem was that he was completely ignoring of the Lord's desire for him. The medicine practiced at this time was a mixture of superstition and folk remedies - and of course, we should certainly avoid any pseudo-medical treatment derived from occult sources...but we should also not be surprised when we suffer diseases if/when we rebel against the Lord.

We cannot use scripture selectively without addressing the entire context. There's zero basis in trying to use the example of Asa going to physicians as a UNIVERSAL example (outside of its historical context) for all use of physcians being negative...and we have to honor the Word for what it says FULLY.

2. We are commanded to call for the elders of the assembly when we are sick, so that they may anoint us, pray for us, and through the prayer of trust YHWH may heal us and make us well. (Jas. v. 14-16)

That was not the only text that dealt with healing nor was it the case that it was a universal rule since there are many instances where the elders are NOT gone to throughout the Book of Acts and others were healed. What you're advocating is the EXACT same view within certain circles of WOF that say any use of medicine or doctors is sin - to the extremes of saying those who don't get healed after prayer either lacked faith or need to trust in the Lord. Hobart being one of the most prominent examples when many died following his advice.....

Some of this was covered more in-depth in previous threads such as Has Messianic Judaism been positively or adversely affected by Word Faith Teachings?

That said, in all due respect, None of the facts you brought up deal with what the Early body of believers did when it came to using natural elements to help for healing - even with Paul (which you never addressed) who didn't advise others to ONLY go to the elders for healing since he already told Timothy to use a natural element such as wine itself ....

Specifically, when saying in 1 Timothy 5:23 "Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses" (1 Timothy 5:22-24 ) - and outside of that, we already the testimony of the church which was known for using natural means the Lord provided to heal others.

For many skeptical of modern medicine, many believers have noted the need to use naturopathic treatments that were available to others when many things were not allowed. Many have noted that often when it comes to utilizing things others have always done throughout history....such as learning of what the Lord has provided in the simplicity of creation (i.e plants, herbs, fruits, etc) and using them to create differing means of healing methods. Much of it has worked often and many within the medical field have noted how much medicine seems to be shifting toward a naturopathic perspective. Osteopathic medicine is also on the rise, as it concerns ministering healing through adjustment of the body (i.e. massage, addressing bone joints, stretching, etc).

For others in places where modern medicine has not been able to be as available as it is in the U.S, utilizing osteopathic medicine has been beneficial since one can work naturally with what's available rather than feel dependent on an infrastructure that may not be available quickly. My friend, who is from Jamaica and in the field of medicine, has seen this often growing up when her family lived in poor areas---and yet simple things helped them stay in shape. Osteopathic medicine emphasizes the interrelationship between structure and function of the body and recognizes the body's ability to heal itself......

Using creation to help people in the place of medicine is no different than what happened with others such as George Washington Carver all over again, as the man only had nature to work with in keeping many people healthy in the SOuth--and he did a myriad of amazing things that still astound many....and to him, it was all about going to what the Lord prescribed in Genesis 1 when he gave man fruit/vegetables to eat in order to be sustained. Many of those in the old school still go with that, trusting in the Lord to heal them/keep them as they seek to be healthy and utilize what he made....

George Washington Carver actually spoke on the issue in-depth one time ...seeing the extensive myriad of ways that he witnessed healings through the natural world as the Lord Himself gave him many of the RADICAL ideas he had via botany and agriculture and finding extensive ways to make others whole by his God-Given creativity.

Dr. George W. Carver made many medical contributions, including using a combination of oil derived from peanuts, called Penol, together with physical therapy to restore the use of atrophied limbs of Polio and infantile paralysis victims. The oil was utilized by massaging it into a patient&#8217;s atrophied muscles. This proved to be somewhat helpful..and this could be attributed to Carver&#8217;s advanced message techniques he acquired at Iowa State while serving as an athletic trainer. One of his most surprising peanut-related contributions to mankind was his extraction of a peanut oil which aided in restoring wasted tissues. To prove the value of the oil, he took photographs of the deformed limbs of children before treating them and then after a year of treatment. The remarkable improvement evidenced by the pictures started a stream of ailing children to his laboratory, and, with the help of his students, all were treated

As he said in one of his correspondance letters on December 16, 1934, as he wrote to the mother of James Hardwick:

My esteemed friend Mrs. Hardwick,

Thank you so much for your beautiful card with its Greetings. I have not written to you in a long time, but my thoughts and prayers have been for you daily. Our patients have usurped almost all of my spare time. God continues to speak through the oils in a truly marvelous way.

I have patients who come to me on crutches, who are now walking 6 miles without tiring, without either crutch or cane. (one man).

My last patient today was one of the sweetest little 5 year old boys, who 3 months ago they had to carry in my room, being paralyzed from the waist down. When I had finished the massage today, much to our astonishment he dressed himself and stood up and walked across the floor without any support. He is a handsome little fellow and so happy that he is improving, (and I too).

I said Our patients, because I feel that your prayers help to make it possible.

Since last Dec. 31st I have received 2020 letters, plus the people who come every day and almost every night for treatment. It is truly marvelous what God is doing.

Continue to pray for me please that I may be a more fit medium through which He can Speak....

I am so gratefully yours,

G.W. Carver 43

​

Most people are often not aware of how many healing revivals he was in support of---and how often he'd ask his church to pray/intercede for him so that the miraculous would occur. One can go here for more and see directly what his thoughts were...and if interested, there was actually a thread elsewhere on the subject that I was able to have with others within the Faith movement on George Washington Carver and how his faith literally impacted countless others. It can be found here.

Ancient practitioners identified what plants possessed various healing properties. In some cases, they attributed these properties to higher powers, but in large part, they accepted the medicinal powers of plants at face value -- the plants did what they did. As scientific inquiry developed, however, nothing could be taken at face value. Once science had a grasp on the interactions between drugs and the body, it became possible to synthesize natural compounds through chemistry. Consequently, science and tradition diverged. In the first edition of the American Pharmacopoeia, published in 1820, 70 percent of drugs were plant-based. In the 1960 edition, 5.3 percent were of plant origin [source: Royal Society of Medicine].


For articles:

• 
  Bakx, K. "The eclipse of folk medicine in western society"
• Plants in the development of modern medicine." Proceedings of the Royal Society of Medicine.

As divergent as folk medicine and modern medicine became over time, chemists have occasionally doubled back to the traditional roots of medicine in order to move forward...and for many getting fearful of the medicial industry failing, it's simply going back to what was present in the Book of Acts again.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thus we are dying from our lack of knowledge in God's healing food and medicines.

I agree.

Many struggle with seeing the co-operation of science, medicine and prayer. Prior to the popularity of "word of faith" back in the 1800's and early 1900's there were early practicers of prayer for healing who thought that if you resorted to any medical help at all, you were disqualified from an answer by faith. But there were also good examples to remember.Oral Roberts was famous for his "City of Faith" which was to be a hospital run by spirit filled believers and staffed by spirit filled doctors who would practice their medicine combined with prayer and faith. Ultimately, Healing is a natural process God built into our bodies and it can be helped by medicine at times, and sped up at times by prayer and faith. Also, miracles of restoration and healing are possible through faith and prayer that would not have been possible by natural or medicinal means.

Thank God we don't have to choose doctors or faith, but we can and should be led to seek wholeness by whatever means we can.

Even within the Word, in Jeremiah 8:22, it's interesting to see how the statement about Gilead approves of physicians, albeit metaphorically. For Jeremiah 30:13 equates the lack of medicine with a consequent lack of healing, and Jeremiah 51:8 says medicine is the way for Babylon to be healed. Although these examples are metaphors, it is logical to see how they imply that medicines are useful. For one can hardly conclude that God is against physicians or medicines by such neutral or positive usage. Moreover, Ezekiel 47:12 shows healing medicine will be made from the leaves of trees that are nourished by waters from the new temple in the new Jerusalem...while Revelation 22:2 echoes this scenario.

Moreover, Colossians 4:14 refers to Luke as the "beloved physician," showing that Luke was a physician and was well thought of - and the Bible nowhere states that Luke stopped using his skills after conversion, and it would not be proper to conclude that he did merely from the Bible&#8217;s silence on the subject.

It often seems that t he verses cited most often in supposed proof against the use of physicians or medicines are 2 Kings 1:1-4 and 2 Chronicles 16:12-13. For within, 2 Kings 1:1-4 one sees the example of King Ahaziah of Israel, who was sick and sent to Baalzebub, the god of Ekron, to see if he was to recover from the disease...and God&#8217;s response through his prophet Elijah was, "Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going to inquire of Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron?". Plainly, the Tanak condemns ancient practitioners who relied on pagan gods, amulets, incantations or other forms of magic or superstition. And with 2 Chron. 16:12-13, what occured was that these physicians were the primary ones being gone to when Asa was already in rebellion against the Lord for selling out the Temple/treasury to a pagan nation.

There are other examples besides that - but when it comes to healing, the reality is that to be in the medical profession/well skilled in it is a form of what Paul noted in I Corinthians 12 with gifts of healing ( 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 /1 Corinthians 12:29-31 ). There was another excellent sermon presentation on the subject that really did an wonderful job handling the issue of what gifts are healing are about - as seen here

With seeing God's healing power in the Word/foods and medicine, it is interesting to consider how much the spiritual impacts the physical. Spiritual deliverance is promised in the Atonement---such as what Acts 10:37-39 Acts 10 & Matthew 8:16-18 / Matthew 8 when Christ was not just healing physical problems---but casting out evil spirits. Go on the mission field and it'll always be amazing seeing ccurences where people were DEMON POSSESSED with SUPERNATURAL physical strength to do SERIOUS DAMAGE...like the man named Legion in Mark 5:9-11 / Mark 5...and the Power of the Lord was definately needed. One can see the same here in the U.S - with no amount of medicine being able to drive that out - but the point is that Christ promised His own the power to deal with it so that no one would have to say they came to the Lord and could never be delivered.

There are already examples in the Word where certain diseases were directly the result of others having SPIRITS of Infirmity that physically harmed their bodies...as with the woman bent over/crippled by Satan for years in Luke 13:10-12 Luke 13..and the same with the deaf/dumb spirit plaguing the little child in Mark 9:24-26 Mark 9

Part of me often wrestles with how often it seems others assume the immediate thing to do whenever there's sickness is praying for an immediate healing to occur...and yet, no one considers how the Lord may be concerned with what happens in the natural first. There was a good thread elsewhere that sought to discuss the issue in-depth, as seen in the thread entitled Healing, timing and doctors

In view of the lingering illness of Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-30), Trophimus (II Timothy 4:20), and perhaps Paul himself (II Corinthians 12:7-10, Galatians 4:13)---I don't see it where healing always occurred. Few doubt that Paul had a gift of healing, but his prayers for Epaphroditus weren&#8217;t answered, at least not at first Philippians 2:25-30, Clearly, Paul could not heal at will. Aside from Jesus, no one else could either! And there is no doubt if even Jesus could John 5:19, Mark 6:5-6). Some would conclude from Pauls FAILURE to heal his friend that the gift of healing was dying out at this juncture in the life of the church.(in spite of the fact that late in his ministry, in Acts 28:9, Paul healed everyone on the island of MALTA who came to him). It seems better to conclude that healing,whenever and wherever it occured, was subject not to the will of man, but to the will of God. No one, not even Paul, could always heal all diseases. Paul understood the occasional nature of gifts of healings&#8230;..

The fact that healing is an expression of divine mercy Philippians 2:27 means that it should NEVER be viewed as a RIGHT. I believe we should have faith for healing. But there is a vast difference between faith in divine mercy and presumption based on an alleged right.

And sometimes, we can have healing available in natural ways the Lord already made available and yet we pass it up. Even with others like Timothy, when he was sick, Paul advocated for him to have a natural means of healing when telling him to use a little wine for his stomach (I Timothy 5:23).

Even in the OT, for men who walked in God's power, they did not always end up healed.

Kings 13:14
Now Elisha was suffering from the illness from which he died. Jehoash king of Israel went down to see him and wept over him. "My father! My father!" he cried. "The chariots and horsemen of Israel!"
2 Kings 13

Ironic that Elisha, the great giant of faith who had done so many miracles in his lifetime (and even one after his death in verses 21-22 in II Kings 13) would die from illness. But there's an element of mystery of the miraculous.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

YHWH healed Hezekiah and the prophets of Elisha. Both Hezekiah's boil and the prophet's stew were said to be deadly.

We already have PLENTY in the way of poisonous foods we eat daily when it comes to fruits and vegetables which are made possible because men understood how to work with them properly or add other elements into them to dillute the negative effects. More was shared in-depth elsewhere on the issue:

For many everyday fruits/Poisonous food plants we eat are indeed poisonous...including apples when it comes to the seeds they carry..and the cherry, as well as other Prunus species such as peach, plum, almond, and apricot since the leaves and seeds contain cyanogenic glycosides. Tomatos and potatos amongst other things are also included

We have a fruit in Jamaica that is eaten often called Ackee (VERY GOOD), but you NEVER open it fresh off the tree since there's a poison gas released that kills. The akee must be allowed to open fully or at least partly before it is detached from the tree. .but messing with it wrongly can do A LOT of harm.

• 10 Everyday Fruits and Vegetables that are Poisonous

In the same way that certain fruits and food plants may have poisonous elements present in them and yet others got adpated to it (or learned ways around it), it often seems to be the same with other food types that are poisonous...and yet others learned ways around them. Nonetheless, there are some that are so poisonous that it'd be unwise to ever try them.

​

That said, In Psalms 104:14, Scripture says that herbs are for the service of man. In Genesis 1:29 God said He made the herbs and the green plants for our food. The very first place the word "medicine" is used in the Bible is in Proverbs 17:22 and it says, "A merry heart doeth good, like a medicine." If medicine and drugs are the same thing, this would, at first glance, seem to reveal a contradiction in the Bible. Today the words "medicine" and "drugs" are used interchangeably - but language is dynamic and it changes to reflect common usage. What many have found is that the original word for "sorcery" means a drug, a druggist, or a poisoner. ..and one can therefore clearly see that drugs and medicine are not the same thing when spoken of in the Bible. The Bible condemns the use of poisons for medicine and labels it as sorcery, and very plainly tells what Biblical medicine is.....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I'm going to go tell my pharmacist that she's a "drug sorcerer". She'll get a huge kick out of that.

That wouldn't be the best thing to do just as it'd not be wise (or Biblical) to walk up to a doctor/claim "You just have no faith in God!!!" - or talk to the local bus driver/claim they don't trust the Lord because of not believing the Lord could teleport them like he did for Philip in Acts 8 after talking to the Ethiopian Eunuch and being immediately taken away - or saying to someone in prison they "Lack faith" in the Lord simply because they didn't get delivered from prison like Peter did when the Church prayed for him (Acts 12) - even though many others prayed and were meant to die in prison regardless of prayer.

 

[Nathan Ethan]

Gx,

You are certainly free to go physicians and drugs for healing if you choose. But it is not necessary to go to such great lengths to try to justify doing so. I do not judge or condemn you, my brother, for your personal convictions. To our own master we stand or fall. Who are we to condemn a fellow servant? We each have different degrees of trust in YHWH. Sometimes we have different degrees of conviction about what we believe to be true or right. So be it.

I believe I have presented a clear teaching from Scripture. You disagree with going to YHWH alone for healing, and are convinced that physicians and drugs are ok. So be it. Peace to you, my brother!

And Shabbat Shalom!