Drop your theological errors off here...

[amariselle]

Read the parts you didn't highlight, like verse 22.

I read it all. Thanks.

 

[amariselle]

Exactly, but that does NOT mean we can sin and it isn't called sin. It means we now through Christ's gift to us of His power, cannot sin, because the Spirit in us doesn't sin. We need to walk in the Spirit. He who sins is not of God, but of the devil. That's also in 1 John 3

Our flesh still sins. The inner man is a new creation, totally without sin. That's why the "flesh" wars against the Spirit as Paul says.

Anyone who says they are without sin deceives themselves and the truth is not in them.

 

[1stcenturylady]

When we are "born of God", that is a "new creation in Christ" we cannot sin. Obviously this is not talking about our flesh or being physically a "new creation", but inwardly, the "inner man". This "inner man" is born of God and is entirely without sin. And so, even "if our hearts condemn us" we can have "confidence toward God." Our confidence/hope is in Him, not ourselves.

And as true believers, saved and born again, new creations in Him, of course we love one another.

I'm sorry he is not just talking about the inner man, and not the flesh/carnal nature. That is very similar to the old Gnostic teaching that the only sins held against us are the sins in our spirit/inner man, but the sins of the flesh don't matter. They would say they don't sin, even though they were raping each other's wives to show the power of grace. That is what John was referring to in 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10. The only way for them to be cleansed of sin and their false thinking is through verse 9, then you are verse 7.

 

[amariselle]

I'm sorry he is not just talking about the inner man, and not the flesh/carnal nature. That is very similar to the old Gnostic teaching that the only sins held against us are the sins in our spirit/inner man, but the sins of the flesh don't matter. They would say they don't sin, even though they were raping each other's wives to show the power of grace. That is what John was referring to in 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10. The only way for them to be cleansed of sin and their false thinking is through verse 9, then you are verse 7.

I can assure you, I am not a Gnostic. If you think we can be perfect in our corrupted flesh in this life, however, and thereby earn or merit salvation, you are sadly mistaken. No one has ever done that. (Other than Christ, no one has ever lived a sinless life in the flesh).

 

[1stcenturylady]

Our flesh still sins. The inner man is a new creation, totally without sin. That's why the "flesh" wars against the Spirit as Paul says.

Anyone who says they are without sin deceives themselves and the truth is not in them.

I see you are still quoting 1 John 1:8 as if you want to justify sin in the flesh, as did the Gnostics. Look them up.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I can assure you, I am not a Gnostic. If you think we can be perfect in our corrupted flesh in this life, however, and thereby earn or merit salvation, you are sadly mistaken. No one has ever done that. (Other than Christ, no one has ever lived a sinless life in the flesh).

Have you ever been baptized in the Spirit and felt His power over sin in you? If not, then you are going by your experience as a weak sinner, and not the experience of having power over sin. I may just go ahead and send you my testimony. It might help you see the difference. I was in church for 30 years before receiving God's Spirit. What a difference His Spirit makes.

 

[amariselle]

I see you are still quoting 1 John 1:8 as if you want to justify sin in the flesh, as did not Gnostics. Look them up.

Thats always the accusation. When someone admits that we can't earn salvation by living sinless lives, the comeback is always, "well then, you want to justify sin."

Absurd.

If you've somehow stopped sinning you've accomplished something only Christ was able to do. Therefore, I guess you don't need Him because you can gain eternal life all on your own merits.

As for me? I'm throwing myself on the mercy of Christ. I know that in my flesh dwells no good thing and that without Christ's righteousness and sacrifice, I am destined for Hell.

God bless

 

[amariselle]

Have you ever been baptized in the Spirit and felt His power over sin in you? If not, then you are going by your experience as a weak sinner, and not the experience of having power over sin. I may just go ahead and send you my testimony. It might help you see the difference. I was in church for 30 years before receiving God's Spirit. What a difference His Spirit makes.

If you're suggesting I don't have the Holy Spirit, you're suggesting I'm not actually saved.

Thanks for that.

Don't worry, I don't need you to cause me to doubt my salvation. I'm trusting only in Christ, not myself.

May God bless you.

 

[Goatee]

Snip
Our salvation salvation is Christ plus nothing.

One has to do what Christ told us to do. Try reading the scriptures with the correct glasses.

 

[amariselle]

One has to do what Christ told us to do. Try reading the scriptures with the correct glasses.

You mean the way that someone else tells me to?

No thanks.

I've noticed you have repeatedly refused to address all the Scripture I've shared regarding salvation by faith.

Why?

 

[amariselle]

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Romans 10:1-13

More on salvation by faith in Christ alone, not works: (So many people truly need to know this)

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:14-18

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." - John 3:36

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." - John 5:24

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

"Then said they unto him, 'What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?'"

Jesus answered and said unto them, 'This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.'" - John 6:27-29

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:38-40

There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in His Son. (Romans 6:23)

Christ is the end of the Law for all who believe. (Romans 10:4)

We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. (Ephesians 2:8)

We must not go about to establish our own righteousness. (Romans 10:1-4)

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance. - (2 Peter 3:9)

Repentance from "dead works" and faith toward God. - (Hebrews 6:1)

By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified, but only by faith in Christ. (Galatians 2:16)

Also read Romans 4, Romans 5, Galatians 5, Hebrews 4, Hebrews 11

Our salvation is entirely by faith in Christ and what He has done. (The Gospel) 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

 

[Phil 1:21]

Thats always the accusation. When someone admits that we can't earn salvation by living sinless lives, the comeback is always, "well then, you want to justify sin."

Absurd.

I think you two are talking past each other. I’m not Pentacostal, but I definitely relate to 1stcenturylady’s point about the power of the Holy Spirit. It is a phenomenal, life changing thing. On the other hand, I also understand what you’re saying about the sufficiency of Calvary and the fact that we cannot lead sinless lives. Even Paul lamented this fact in Romans 7:15-20.

So yeah…you’re both right.

 

[Goatee]

You mean the way that someone else tells me to?

No thanks.

I've noticed you have repeatedly refused to address all the Scripture I've shared regarding salvation by faith.

Why?

Because you always pick scripture out of context to suit YOUR narrow beliefs.

 

[amariselle]

Because you always pick scripture out of context to suit YOUR narrow beliefs.

I quoted entire chapters. Go read them for yourself.

 

[amariselle]

I think you two are talking past each other. I’m not Pentacostal, but I definitely relate to 1stcenturylady’s point about the power of the Holy Spirit. It is a phenomenal, life changing thing. On the other hand, I also understand what you’re saying about the sufficiency of Calvary and the fact that we cannot lead sinless lives. Even Paul lamented this fact in Romans 7:15-20.

So yeah…you’re both right.

I never said the Holy Spirit isn't important. We are not even saved or born again without the Holy Spirit.

My point is, we are not earning our own salvation.

God bless.

 

[Phil 1:21]

My point is, we are not earning our own salvation.

100% on the mark.

 

[Hank77]

Does the bible help you worship? Then by your standard it's an idol.
Icons are teaching tools... the poor mans bible.

End of my discussion on this topic.

Forgive me...

What makes an icon different from other artist's renditions of Biblical stories or Biblical personages, such as the Last Supper or pictures in a children's Bible?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Christ speaking:
Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Works.

Because you did not believe? No. Because you weren't a Christian? No.

Because of the things that were done and the things that were not done. AKA ~ Just rewards for living a righteous life, by the law written on your heart if needed.

We may find Gandhi in heaven. I hope we're all comfortable with that.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What makes an icon different from other artist's renditions of Biblical stories or Biblical personages, such as the Last Supper or pictures in a children's Bible?

Being approved of by the clergy for one. (The ceiling of the Sistine chapel would never have made it.) Being flat images for another. Certain colors are used in a certain way especially on clothing when depicting heavenly things and earthly things. Icons also show the face of Christ in the face of the person in the icon. Something familiar so to speak. Then there are things on icons like wrinkles on the forehead signifying a certain intellect known as the mind of The Church. You will always see halos around Saints and no halo on the lost. Often an icon will have text that goes with it such as IC XC. Lots and lots of details... Iconography is the subject.

Forgive me...

 

[seashale76]

What makes an icon different from other artist's renditions of Biblical stories or Biblical personages, such as the Last Supper or pictures in a children's Bible?

I don't think you realize what a huge topic this actually is. This is something I put together a few years ago after reading a few books on icons. Hopefully it will answer your question.

The earliest iconographers in Byzantium weren't considered artists they were considered craftsmen. There are strict rules to iconography. God the Father is never shown, and the Holy Spirit is only represented by a dove, rays of power, or tongues of flame. People who defile them, make portraits of other people like Ghandi or Martin Luther King in an iconographic style, people who print them on t-shirts: it is seen pretty much as very sad and outrageous. Not everything that claims to be an icon is an icon. Books upon books have been written about icons. I suggest to anyone interested in the subject to go find some books (I especially rec Quinot and Martin).

Medieval innovations of using models to paint sensual and emotional portraits is absolutely forbidden.

Linette Martin in her book Sacred Doorways: A Beginner's Guide to Icons (page 212) states, "To the question,'Where does an icon belong?'; the obvious answer is, "In a church, to be an integral part of the Divine Liturgy, or in a Christian home as a devotional focus."

Symbolism is key. There is a lot of it to be found. From seemingly random trees, to personification, to color, to the way figures hold their hands, to the scale of figures, to profiles, animals, arrested movement, body language, buildings, clothing worn, drapery, rocks, furniture, haloes, handheld objects, inscriptions, landscape, simultaneous narration, etc. it all means something. There is an entire theology behind icons.

The earliest icons we know of are almost all at St. Catherine's Monastery in Mt. Sinai, Egypt (and many of them were exhibited at the Getty for a few years ago, accompanied by a few of the Monks). Go to their website and watch the video about the monastery and the icons. http://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/icons_sinai/

The following is an excerpt from an article that gives an extremely brief general overview of icons. I highlighted the last paragraph because it talks specifically about Christ in icons. (Seriously- read the entire text box.)

Eastern Orthodox Christians and Iconography | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese
So what is an icon? Webster defines an icon as an image (Webster, 1966). In the Orthodox Church an icon is a sacred image, a window into heaven. An image of another reality, of a person, time and place that is more real than here and now. More than art, icons have an important spiritual role. Michel Quenot says it well in his book, The Icon: Window on the Kingdom, an icon is "theology in imagery, the icon expresses through color what the Gospel proclaims in words".

For this reason the rules regarding the creation of an icon are rigorous. The iconographer must prepare himself for the task of painting an icon by following a strict discipline of fasting and prayer. He must quiet his spirit and submit himself to God. The icon he creates will not be signed. He will not expect accolades or applause when the icon is completed. The icon will be created to inspire and lead others into worship. Painting the icon is not a use of imagination. Instead, the icon will be painted using the prescribed regimen and style that has been passed down through the centuries. Everything from the facial expressions to the colors used is predetermined. The following is a prayer recited by an iconographer prior to starting to work:

O Divine Master of all that exists, enlighten and direct the soul, the heart and the mind of your servant: guide my hands so that I might portray worthily and perfectly Your Image, that of Your Holy Mother and of all the Saints, for the glory, the joy, and the beautification of Your Holy Church. ( Quenot, p.13)

The primary purpose of the icon is to aid in worship. Its design follows that purpose. Through lines and color the iconographer conveys the awesomeness of the invisible, divine reality (Evdokimov, 1990). The creation of an icon is defined by tradition. That is a 21 st century iconographer would not decide to change the shape of Christ's face. It is understood that a person who saw them in the flesh painted the first icon of an individual. St. Luke is accredited with painting the first icons of Christ and Mary the Blessed Virgin. Each subsequent iconographer will use the original icon as a guide. There is room for a small amount of stylistic change but tradition limits the options for that change ( Forest, 1997).

Icons are not created to force an emotional response. When portraying historical scenes the faces don't show emotions but instead portray virtues such as purity, patience in suffering, forgiveness, compassion and love. An example of this would be the portrayal of Christ on the cross. Neither is the icon a sentimental picture. Christ is always shown as God. Even the icons of Christ seated on His mother's lap show Him with an adult face, revealing that even though Christ lived as a child among us He was also God ( Forest,1997).

Icons depict silence. There are no actions displayed, no open mouths. The icon invites the Christian to enter into contemplation,prayer, and silence (Ware,1979). Space is not defined as three-dimensional and time is insignificant. The story told by the icon precludes time and space. An example would be the icon of the Nativity, which shows the cave where Christ was born in the background with those who came to adore in small vignettes. Lighting proceeds from the character portrayed in the icon. There are never shadows in icons. This shows us that the saint portrayed is 'glorified' having completed the race and entered into heaven (Quenot,1991).

Symbolism is used in icons and details are used minimally. For example, when showing John the Baptist baptizing in the river the grown man he baptizes is shown as an infant because the baptism is a rebirth. Colors are also symbolic. Blue reveals heaven and mystery. Green is youth, fertility and the earth's vegetation. Red, the color of blood, suggests life, vitality and beauty. White is purity, the divine world and innocence. Gold indicates sanctity, splendor, and the glory of God and life in the heavenly kingdom. Purple reveals wealth, power and authority.

First and foremost, icons are a constant reminder of the incarnation of Christ, that is to say, they remind us that God "sent His only begotten Son" (Bible, John 3:16) to rescue us from our sin and death. We cannot see God the Father or God the Holy Spirit, but, because Christ chose to take on human flesh, we can see Him. His face can be portrayed on wood with paint. We can also paint His Mother and other saints who have finished the race and gone on to heaven. The Orthodox believe that surrounding themselves with icons help them to acknowledge the constant presence of Christ and the saints in their lives.

I thought this was enlightening enough regarding the particular thread to add in this information about how Christ is portrayed in icons.

From Linette Martin's book, Sacred Doorways: A Beginner's Guide to Icons (pages 150-151) published by Paraclete Press, copyright 2002:

"Christ Pantocrator (pan-to-crah-tor) means Christ, the ruler of all.

"The domed roof of a Byzantine church represents the vault of heaven, and originally, mosaicists may have decorated it with the Ascension. By the tenth century, the figure in church domes was half-length, and the picture for a dome had changed from narrative to confrontational. It was discovered that a half-length figure fitted more easily into a circle than one of full length, and it allowed the face to be on a larger scale. He holds a closed book, which may be seen as the Gospels or as the Book of Judgment in Revelation 20:11,12

"The fingers of his right hand are bent in the position of a priest's hand of blessing and are pointing toward himself. The index finger of his other hand points powerfully across the picture, balancing the sideways glance of his eyes to his left. When we look carefully at the face of this Pantocrator, we see a difference between one side and the other. His right side, the side of blessing, is calm; his left side, the side of judgment, is fierce with an angry eyebrow. After nearly nine hundred years this awe-inspiring image still has the power to convert. Confronted with it for the first time some people react with shock: This is not a tame Jesus. The only thing that lets us off the hook is that those eyes do not look directly at us. The image is a reminder that the Last Judgment should be feared because it will be absolutely just, albeit tempered by mercy and total understanding.

"The Pantocrator is not intended to represent Christ as the Jesus of Galilee, but as the awe-inspiring God-Man, the King of the Universe and terrible Judge at the end of time."