Drop your theological errors off here...

[Goatee]

Is the Bible "silly" when it tells us repeatedly that it is faith in Christ alone that saves?

Faith and works go hand in hand.

Would you leave someone dying by the side of the road? Would you feed a hungry person? These are works, good works.

If you say you are saved by faith alone yet walked past these people in need do you think you will then be still saved?

 

[Goatee]

amariselle

Look, this rich guy failed to do good works for Lazarous. Would he have ended up in Hades if he had done good works? What do you think?

If only he had done 'Good Works!'

Luke 16:20-31
20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

 

[amariselle]

The Scriptures you are quoting are wonderful for those who ARE HIS, but not for those who still walk in the flesh of their carnal nature.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Starting with Romans 7, "
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

Chapter 8
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:16-21

If we are saved (as those Paul wrote all his epistles to were) then we have the Holy Spirit. The "willful sin" is to reject Christ's one time for all sacrifice on the cross for sin. That is what "trampling the Son of God underfoot" is. We consider the blood of the covenant an "unclean thing" when we reject it and say Jesus' blood was not able to/not enough to save us. When we tell God that we are going to add to His Son's finished and all sufficient sacrifice for sin by trying to earn our salvation by living right, we do indeed insult the "Spirit of Grace."

If we are in Christ, by faith, it's really quite simple, there is no longer any condemnation. Period.

And we haven't earned that, not even a little bit.

So let's not go about to establish our own righteousness, as Scripture warns about.

 

[amariselle]

Faith and works go hand in hand.

Would you leave someone dying by the side of the road? Would you feed a hungry person? These are works, good works.

If you say you are saved by faith alone yet walked past these people in need do you think you will then be still saved?

"Good works" follow saving faith, they do not earn us our salvation. If they do, then Christ's death was completely unnecessary.

 

[amariselle]

amariselle

Look, this rich guy failed to do good works for Lazarous. Would he have ended up in Hades if he had done good works? What do you think?

If only he had done 'Good Works!'

Luke 16:20-31
20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

That story is describing Christ and fortelling His rising from the dead. It also talks of the OT place of the dead.

In any case, far be it from me to convince you you cannot earn your way into Heaven. If you won't believe the Scriptures, you surely won't believe me.

As for myself, however, I'm putting all my trust in what Christ has done. I know only too well that if it's left up to me, I am going straight to Hell, where I deserve to be apart from Christ.

God bless.

 

[amariselle]

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Romans 10:1-13

 

[amariselle]

More on salvation by faith in Christ alone, not works: (So many people truly need to know this)

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:14-18

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." - John 3:36

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." - John 5:24

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

"Then said they unto him, 'What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?'"

Jesus answered and said unto them, 'This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.'" - John 6:27-29

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:38-40

There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in His Son. (Romans 6:23)

Christ is the end of the Law for all who believe. (Romans 10:4)

We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. (Ephesians 2:8)

We must not go about to establish our own righteousness. (Romans 10:1-4)

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance. - (2 Peter 3:9)

Repentance from "dead works" and faith toward God. - (Hebrews 6:1)

By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified, but only by faith in Christ. (Galatians 2:16)

Also read Romans 4, Romans 5, Galatians 5, Hebrews 4, Hebrews 11

Our salvation is entirely by faith in Christ and what He has done. (The Gospel) 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

 

[1stcenturylady]

If we are saved (as those Paul wrote all his epistles to were) then we have the Holy Spirit. The "willful sin" is to reject Christ's one time for all sacrifice on the cross for sin. That is what "trampling the Son of God underfoot" is. We consider the blood of the covenant an "unclean thing" when we reject it and say Jesus' blood was not able to/not enough to save us. When we tell God that we are going to add to His Son's finished and all sufficient sacrifice for sin by trying to earn our salvation by living right, we do indeed insult the "Spirit of Grace."

If we are in Christ, by faith, it's really quite simple, there is no longer any condemnation. Period.

And we haven't earned that, not even a little bit.

So let's not go about to establish our own righteousness, as Scripture warns about.

The law of thou shalt nots could never make anyone righteous. That is WHY Jesus has given us His Own Spirit to kill sin in us. We are now dead to sin, it no longer has a hold on us. So if anyone is continuing to willfully sin, they are just fooling themselves if they believe they are His. There is no truth in them.

This is more important than just a theological debate, friend. I know how frustrating it is to feel weak in the flesh. I went to church for 30 years and learned the laws of God backwards and forwards, and all it did was make me feel wretched. Now you've learned the grace of God, but now believe sinning cannot separate you from God. It doesn't work that way. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep My commandments." And because He knows we are just dust, He has given us the Holy Spirit. I know you believe that theologically, just not practically. The evidence of having the Holy Spirit is being dead to the cravings of sin. If you can say, yes, then you have Him. If no, you need to go back and do "the first works" REPENT. Acts 2:38.

If you would like to hear my testimony, send me a private conversation.

 

[Goatee]

That story is describing Christ and fortelling His rising from the dead. It also talks of the OT place of the dead.

In any case, far be it from me to convince you you cannot earn your way into Heaven. If you won't believe the Scriptures, you surely won't believe me.

As for myself, however, I'm putting all my trust in what Christ has done. I know only too well that if it's left up to me, I am going straight to Hell, where I deserve to be apart from Christ.

God bless.

You can have total faith in Christ but if you fail to clothe the naked, or feed the hungry etc then you will be calling Father, Father but He may turn round and say He does not know you!

 

[amariselle]

The law of thou shalt nots could never make anyone righteous. That is WHY Jesus has given us His Own Spirit to kill sin in us. We are now dead to sin, it no longer has a hold on us. So if anyone is continuing to willfully sin, they are just fooling themselves if they believe they are His. There is no truth in them.

As the Bible says, the "willful sin" is to reject the one time, all sufficient sacrifice of Christ, by which alone we are justified, our sins are purged, and we are saved.

There is no truth in us if we say we are without sin. (Our flesh is sinful, corrupt, perishing. The "inward man" born of God is not. One day we will also receive incorruptible bodies as well)

This is more important than just a theological debate, friend. I know how frustrating it is to feel weak in the flesh. I went to church for 30 years and learned the laws of God backwards and forwards, and all it did was make me feel wretched. Now you've learned the grace of God, but now believe sinning cannot separate you from God. It doesn't work that way.

I absolutely does. We don't become separated from God each and every time we mess up. (Romans 8)

Jesus said, "If you love me, keep My commandments." And because He knows we are just dust, He has given us the Holy Spirit. I know you believe that theologically, just not practically. The evidence of having the Holy Spirit is being dead to the cravings of sin. If you can say, yes, then you have Him. If no, you need to go back and do "the first works" REPENT. Acts 2:38.

Let's look at what those "first works" are (what is meant by "repent"):

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God..." - Hebrews 6:1

Did you know that God "repents" many times in the OT? Repentance is, simply, a change of mind or direction. In the case of salvation, repentance is a turning from "dead works" or whatever or whoever we were trusting in to save us, to Christ alone. Knowing He is the only Way to be saved.

If you would like to hear my testimony, send me a private conversation.

Perhaps I will. I do not wish to continue debating this however. We are not earning our way into Heaven. We did nothing to deserve being saved, we can do nothing to keep it. Christ alone saves us and keeps us saved. All my trust is in Him.

 

[1stcenturylady]

As the Bible says, the "willful sin" is to reject the one time, all sufficient sacrifice of Christ, by which alone we are justified, our sins are purged, and we are saved.

There is no truth in us if we say we are without sin. (Our flesh is sinful, corrupt, perishing. The "inward man" born of God is not. One day we will also receive incorruptible bodies as well)



I absolutely does. We don't become separated from God each and every time we mess up. (Romans 8)



Let's look at what those "first works" are (what is meant by "repent"):

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God..." - Hebrews 6:1

Did you know that God "repents" many times in the OT? Repentance is, simply, a change of mind or direction. In the case of salvation, repentance is a turning from "dead works" or whatever or whoever we were trusting in to save us, to Christ alone. Knowing He is the only Way to be saved.



Perhaps I will. I do not wish to continue debating this however. We are not earning our way into Heaven. We did nothing to deserve being saved, we can do nothing to keep it. Christ alone saves us and keeps us saved. All my trust is in Him.

Earning has to do with what we do, and you are right. That was the law, but without the power of God to keep it. That is what is different. It is no longer us trying, but Jesus in us doing.

BTW, 1 John 1:6, 8, 10 is not describing someone who is already a Christian. 7 is. Only those who walk after the Spirit, because He is in them.

 

[amariselle]

You can have total faith in Christ but if you fail to clothe the naked, or feed the hungry etc then you will be calling Father, Father but He may turn round and say He does not know you!

Yeah, lets look at those verses. So many twist them:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." - Matthew 7:21-23

So, first of all, what is "the will of the Father"? We need to know this because unless we do "the will of the Father", Jesus says we will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Thankfully, Jesus Himself tells us:

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:38-40

And who is told to "depart"? Those who trusted in Christ alone for salvation? No. Those who brought Christ their "many wonderful works." Those who choose to trust in their "wonderful works" to save them, will not be saved.

Our salvation salvation is Christ plus nothing.

 

[amariselle]

Earning has to do with what we do, and you are right. That was the law, but without the power of God to keep it. That is what is different. It is no longer us trying, but Jesus in us doing.

BTW, 1 John 1:6, 8, 10 is not describing someone who is already a Christian. 7 is. Only those who walk after the Spirit, because He is in them.

Yes, because the "inner man" is a "new creation" in Christ.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Our salvation salvation is Christ plus nothing.

Wrong, dear. Let's look at this verse. 1 John 3:23. There is an "and."

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yes, because the "inner man" is a "new creation" in Christ.

Right. That is not just theology, but reality. Do you believe you can believe in Jesus and keep on sinning?

 

[amariselle]

Wrong, dear. Let's look at this verse. 1 John 3:23. There is an "and."

Let's back up and see what that chapter is about. Remember, context.

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Read in context we can see that this is written to believers already saved, to encourage them in their love for their brothers (and sisters) in Christ, as that is the "evidence" of their salvation, not the cause.

When we are "born of God", that is a "new creation in Christ" we cannot sin. Obviously this is not talking about our flesh or being physically a "new creation", but inwardly, the "inner man". This "inner man" is born of God and is entirely without sin. And so, even "if our hearts condemn us" we can have "confidence toward God." Our confidence/hope is in Him, not ourselves.

And as true believers, saved and born again, new creations in Him, of course we love one another.

 

[amariselle]

Right. That is not just theology, but reality. Do you believe you can believe in Jesus and keep on sinning?

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." - 1 John 3:9

 

[1stcenturylady]

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." - 1 John 3:9

Exactly, but that does NOT mean we can sin and it isn't called sin. It means we now through Christ's gift to us of His power, cannot sin, because the Spirit in us doesn't sin. We need to walk in the Spirit. He who sins is not of God, but of the devil. That's also in 1 John 3

 

[1stcenturylady]

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Read in context we can see that this is written to believers already saved, to encourage them in their love for their brothers (and sisters) in Christ, as that is the "evidence" of their salvation, not the cause.

When we are "born of God", that is a "new creation in Christ" we cannot sin. Obviously this is not talking about our flesh or being physically a "new creation", but inwardly, the "inner man". This "inner man" is born of God and is entirely without sin. And so, even "if our hearts condemn us" we can have "confidence toward God." Our confidence/hope is in Him, not ourselves.

And as true believers, saved and born again, new creations in Him, of course we love one another.

Read the parts you didn't highlight, like verse 22.

 

[Phil 1:21]

You can have total faith in Christ but if you fail to clothe the naked, or feed the hungry etc then you will be calling Father, Father but He may turn round and say He does not know you!

Matthew 7:18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit."

If one has true faith in Christ (is a good tree) one will bear good fruit (works). James explains how the first cannot exist without the second, but unfortunately, some theologies like to invert the cause and effect of faith/justification and works.