Dragons vs Prayers

[AV1611VET]

If you don´t want to riddle it to me, just say so.

So.

 

[quatona]

So.

Thanks for your honesty.

 

[AV1611VET]

Thanks for your honesty.

Likewise.

 

[Kylie]

There will be no world peace until the Prince of Peace comes back.

So we can pray all we want, but it won't make any difference, huh?

Do you think God has a plan?

 

[Kylie]

Riddle me this:

You're expecting FedEx to arrive and bring you that secret decoder ring you've been wanting for a week now.

When you get home from work, what do you ask?

Did my ring arrive, or was FedEx here today?

Which one?

Did my ring arrive.

I mean, I could ask if Fed Ex was here, but that doesn't mean that they delivered my ring, does it.

On the other hand, I could ask if my ring was delivered (because I would assume that I'm not too fussy about the method of delivery).

Or, to cover all the bases, I could ask, "Did FedEx delivery my ring today?"

 

[TurtleAnne]

Hmm.. interesting topic.

So far, my interpretation of the scripture is such that, I don't think it is possible for scientists to prove or disprove any outcomes of prayer, for a few reasons.

Like Matthew 6: “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Or like James 4: Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.

Or Luke 11: Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.” So He said to them, “When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.

Or Matthew 4: Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’”

As was the case in Deuteronomy 6: “You shall not tempt the Lord your God"

And 1 Corinthians 10: Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.

And just so on. Whereas many discussions and instructions in the Bible regarding prayer have a pretty straightforward message that prayer is supposed to be about helping one obey God, to resist satan and to live as God planned for one to live. And so the overall message being that if that is what one is praying for, then God will listen to the prayer and in one way or another (whichever way God chooses) the person will have what they are praying for.

For example 1 John 5: Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

So first such studies have to get a group of people to confirm that they are praying and what they are praying for, which is totally the opposite of what was instructed in Matthew 6. Then they are not praying for guidance from God on first having the strength to resist satan and actually want to obey God's will, and then to be able to understand God's will, and then asking for specific help in actually carrying out God's will - instead they are praying for physical healing powers, regardless of whether or not that is God's will, in studies that are meant to overtly test God.

So I wouldn't expect a non-believer to even see it as proof or evidence if the study results had been that everyone being prayed for was physically healed, because the study would still be flawed from the viewpoint of the scriptures. And likewise I don't think it is possible for a study to disprove that something is happening during earnest prayer. Science is a very useful tool for earthly matters, but it will never be able to validate or invalidate the spiritual.

 

[quatona]

2. Can science rule out the efficacy of prayer?

When you say "efficiacy of prayer" are you talking about a particular effect, or just *any* effect it might have? (Because, in the latter case, I think science tends to confirm that prayers have some kinds of effects.)

 

[quatona]

Interesting post!
There´s just one thing that made me wonder:

So I wouldn't expect a non-believer to even see it as proof or evidence if the study results had been that everyone being prayed for was physically healed, because the study would still be flawed from the viewpoint of the scriptures. A

Did you mean to say "a believer" instead of "a non-believer"? Because, a non-believer typically doesn´t argue from the viewpoint of scriptures.

 

[VirOptimus]

Two easy questions:

1. Can science rule out Puff the magic dragon (or is it Pete?) ... whatever.

2. Can science rule out the efficacy of prayer?

Science is not an entity, its a method to understand/describe physical reality.

Your questions is therefore not scientific.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Two easy questions:

1. Can science rule out Puff the magic dragon (or is it Pete?) ... whatever.

2. Can science rule out the efficacy of prayer?

Science can neither confirm nor deny either. Scientists can use science to research the matter, but until they do, there's no answer.

Now, my counter challenge: Is prayer efficacious?

 

[durangodawood]

I saw a book with PUFF.
I'm sure science would confirm that. So:

1. NO

And surely prayer does positive things for people. So:

2: NO

 

[GrowingSmaller]

They can be ruled out

Two easy questions:

1. Can science rule out Puff the magic dragon (or is it Pete?) ... whatever.

2. Can science rule out the efficacy of prayer?

1 yes or no.

2 yes or no.

I can rule out according to certain observational definitions, like "Pete is in my car and is plainy visible". Or "prayer healed that amputee whose limb is still missing". But not absolutely, after all who excepting God knows everything, observes all events? So prayer may work somewhere, and Pete may exist somewhere... (not to conflate the two, I believe prayer can be efficacious, in healing the spirit, and I believe also in mind body connection, and this same prayer can heal and direct lives, influence customs and values and thus lead to a valuing of physical medical culture etc).

 

[Radrook]

Since presently science rules out the supernatural and prayer is an appeal to the supernatural, it would be deemed as being motivated by mere insignificant superstition. It would also be considered equivalent to postulating an ID albeit in an indirect manner.

 

[bhsmte]

Since presently science rules out the supernatural and prayer is an appeal to the supernatural, it would be deemed as being motivated by mere insignificant superstition. It would also be considered equivalent to postulating an ID albeit in an indirect manner.

Science does not rule anything out, it only factors in, what it can observe.

 

[Speedwell]

Since presently science rules out the supernatural and prayer is an appeal to the supernatural, it would be deemed as being motivated by mere insignificant superstition. It would also be considered equivalent to postulating an ID albeit in an indirect manner.

Except that science does not "rule out the supernatural, it merely ignores it on a procedural basis.

 

[bhsmte]

Since presently science rules out the supernatural and prayer is an appeal to the supernatural, it would be deemed as being motivated by mere insignificant superstition. It would also be considered equivalent to postulating an ID albeit in an indirect manner.

If you had a serious medical condition, would you want your doctor to plan treatment on medical science, or some non evidenced super natural assumptions?

 

[Aryeh]

Two easy questions:

1. Can science rule out Puff the magic dragon (or is it Pete?) ... whatever.

2. Can science rule out the efficacy of prayer?

Either you ARE as spacy as people say you are, or those same people and more do not realize the pith of your questions and statements.

I hope you are using Socratic questioning. In that case, I can see how many would dismiss your seemingly facetious answers.

 

[AV1611VET]

I hope you are using Socratic questioning. In that case, I can see how many would dismiss your seemingly facetious answers.

If the questions are too hard for you ...

 

[bobo_mcpherson]

1. Can science rule out Puff the magic dragon (or is it Pete?) ... whatetever.

2. Can science rule out the efficacy of prayer?

Science cannot PROVE anything, it can only suggest a preponderance of evidence for something.

NORMALLY the way a topic is approached is to assume a Null Hypothesis (ie: there is no Puff the Magic Dragon), and then collect data to TEST AGAINST THE NULL.

What this means is that at the end of the day they can either:

1. REJECT THE NULL HYPOTHESIS
2. FAIL TO REJECT THE NULL HYPOTHESIS

They will associate a p-value (the probability of rejecting a true null hypothesis...or, in other words, making a FALSE POSITIVE.)

What you want to ask is:

Does prayer work?

The NULL HYPOTHESIS is: "Prayer does not work"

The tests will involve repeated sampling of events to see if there is an effect from prayer.

So far, no effect has been shown from prayer in studies, if I recall correctly. (apart from, say, possible improvements for a devout person who believes in the power of prayer, a sort of psychological or placebo effect, but in terms of the prayer actually effecting an external change...)

As such one would fail to reject the null hypothesis.

Now, should more data come in showing prayer works at that point it would be possible to re-evaluate the system.

Perhaps the set-up of the Prayer Experiments was flawed (despite Jesus' promise that all who pray will have their prayers answered, John 16:24, so it is hard to imagine how one could do it incorrectly, but I'm willing to assume that is possible.)

 

[TLK Valentine]

If the questions are too hard for you ...

Well then, let's simplify the important one:

"2. Can science rule out the efficacy of prayer?"

First, let's ask ourselves, "Is prayer efficacious?"

That is to say, can prayer motivate God (or whatever higher power you choose to pray to) to act in such a way that He/She/It/They would not have done but for the act of praying?

In order to test for that, we're going to need God's cooperation. AV, you seem to have Him on speed-dial; think you could arrange that for us?