Dr. Willy Parker on reproductive rights

[StillGods]

I have two responses to this scenario.

1) You didn't say at what stage of the pregnancy she chooses the abortion. At 2 weeks? At 8 months? It matters, in my view. I see abortion as a morally gray area, "lighter gray" in the earlier weeks, "darker gray" in later weeks, switching to "morally unacceptable" when we pass the point of viability (except for cases of medical emergencies).

I recognize that you place the "morally unacceptable" line earlier, at conception, or perhaps at the point of using birth control, depending on your religious tradition.

2) After we get through deciding whether her abortion was immoral, I want to look at the situation. She's likely to lose her promotion because of being a mother. You didn't say that her husband was likely to lose HIS promotion because of being a father. THAT is an inequity in the workplace that I want to see changed. Your scenario is accurate -- that kind of gender-biased penalty for parenthood happens all the time -- and it's unjust.

1. it's not a morally gray area.
we have one photo of my niece or nephew, the scan to see if he or she was still young enough to kill.
I wish he or she had had the chance to live I just do

2. the woman who would lose her promotion if she didnt kill her child...she would lose her promotion to 'mother' by killing her child which is worse, at least she could have adopted it out and give another woman a chance at being a mother if she herself valued her job more than the life inside her.

3. many men have no idea they are fathers because their babies are killed without them being given a voice because it's not their 'choice'. I find that equally as tragic and a worse inequality than the one in the scenario of losing promotion. who honestly cares about careers when it's your child's life or death.

 

[bekkilyn]

You know, I realize in many ways Evangelicals actually infantilize women by treating them as victims of abortion providers . I never realized that until following the sort of logic of this discussion. Unlike in Catholicism, women are never expected to take responsibility for abortions - it's always the result of some evil, sinister doctor or supposedly "anti-life" ideology (look at the narrative in the movie Unplanned, for instance). But that attitude in itself reflects the kind of paternalistic patriarchy that should be challenged.

Evangelicism puts women on the same level as children and slaves, with the male master Patriarch ruling over them all. Women are considered to be silent, silly, and stupid with too little capacity to make responsible choices. At the same time, women typically receive 100% of the blame, especially if they are poor or of the wrong color.

 

[FireDragon76]

Evangelicism puts women on the same level as children and slaves, with the male master Patriarch ruling over them all. Women are considered to be silent, silly, and stupid with too little capacity to make responsible choices. At the same time, women typically receive 100% of the blame, especially if they are poor or of the wrong color.

And these same folks criticize fundamentalist Muslims for doing the same, just in a different cultural package.

 

[StillGods]

And these same folks criticize fundamentalist Muslims for doing the same, just in a different cultural package.

at least Muslims value children and are against killing the unborn more than Christian's like you appear to be.

 

[FireDragon76]

Evangelicism puts women on the same level as children and slaves, with the male master Patriarch ruling over them all. Women are considered to be silent, silly, and stupid with too little capacity to make responsible choices. At the same time, women typically receive 100% of the blame, especially if they are poor or of the wrong color.

That probably explains some of the over-the-top/overcompensating reactions I encountered to RHE's recent death. Never being part of that culture, i didn't really get it. I've always been in churches that recognized women as equal to men and didn't infantilize them. To me it wasn't something remarkable at all.

 

[bekkilyn]

at least Muslims value children and are against killing the unborn more than Christian's like you appear to.

Is that why fundamentalist Muslims strap bombs onto their children, being that they are considered as an unlimited source of "gifts from Allah"?
.

 

[bekkilyn]

That probably explains some of the over-the-top/overcompensating reactions I encountered to RHE's recent death. Never being part of that culture, i didn't really get it. I've always been in churches that recognized women as equal to men and didn't infantilize them.

I haven't yet heard those sorts of reactions as of yet, but I'm not surprised at all to hear that they exist.

 

[FireDragon76]

I haven't yet heard those sorts of reactions as of yet, but I'm not surprised at all to hear that they exist.

People calling RHE a "woman of valor". I'm just not used to somebody trying to think of women in biblical categories that are themselves often enmeshed with patriarchy, even if it is as a counterpoint. My religious upbringing saw nothing remarkable about that sort of thing. It was perfectly normal for a woman to be in a pulpit, just as it was perfectly normal to be both Christian and pro-choice.

 

[StillGods]

Is that why fundamentalist Muslims strap bombs onto their children, being that they are considered as an unlimited source of "gifts from Allah"?
.

at least they are more likely to bring them into the world than liberal Christians, let's face it liberal Christians will walk someone to the abortion clinic, help them get on the table, minister the injection, operate the machinery that tears a baby apart into pieces and use the suction tool that sucks the pieces of dead baby out of the womb and call it 'love and 'compassion'. Abortion is one of the most abhorrent things and yet liberal Christian's are 'oh we do not judge' like it's nothing. it's an unbelievable deception liberal Christians are under

 

[FireDragon76]

at least they are more likely to bring them into the world than liberal Christians,

So blowing up kids isn't as bad as letting women decide for themselves what to do with their bodies? Can't you see how that's blatantly misogynistic?

 

[bekkilyn]

People calling RHE a "woman of valor". I'm just not used to somebody trying to think of women in biblical categories that are themselves often enmeshed with patriarchy, even if it is as a counterpoint. My religious upbringing saw nothing remarkable about that sort of thing. It was perfectly normal for a woman to be in a pulpit, just as it was perfectly normal to be both Christian and pro-choice.

Now I see what you're saying and I agree! I was thinking you had read more on the lines of more ugly-spirited people saying things like, "Well that's just a rebellious woman getting what she deserves."

Of course, that's again the other side of the dualistic coin of "virgin on pedestal" vs. "reviled harlot/temptress" with women not allowed to be anything in between, i.e. human.

 

[PaulCyp1]

No, it isn't about "human needs". It is about brutally slaughtering one human for the needs of another.

 

[bekkilyn]

No, it isn't about "human needs". It is about brutally slaughtering one human for the needs of another.

Isn't that what the war in Iraq was all about?

 

[StillGods]

So blowing up kids isn't as bad as letting women decide for themselves what to do with their bodies? Can't you see how that's blatantly misogynistic?

of course it's as bad but people dont get as upset about babies in the womb being blown apart and destroyed do they.
you yourself would walk someone to the abortion clinic saying its love and compassion, sit in the waiting room while a baby is blown to pieces and destroyed and say nothing because you dont want to judge.

 

[FireDragon76]

you yourself would walk someone to the abortion clinic saying its love and compassion, sit in the waiting room while a baby is blown to pieces and destroyed and say nothing because you dont want to judge.

Don't presume that, that's dehumanizing and uncalled for. I honestly don't know how I would react, never having to face that situation. I would hope I would respond with grace, whatever I did.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think some people just don't get it. I try to live in the NOW, not in hypothetical situations. Because I know that I'm not what I could imagine myself to be, that is known only to God alone. I do not presume on God's grace in that manner.

 

[StillGods]

Don't presume that, that's dehumanizing and uncalled for. I honestly don't know how I would react, never having to face that situation. I would hope I would respond with grace, whatever I did.

I'm basing that on your posting a dodgy video of a doctor saying he's Jesus while killing babies and you not seeing anything wrong with that.

 

[bekkilyn]

I think some people just don't get it. I try to live in the NOW, not in hypothetical situations. Because I know that I'm not what I could imagine myself to be, that is known only to God alone. I do not presume on God's grace in that manner.

It's all really about power vs. life. Once those babies are born, then it typically doesn't matter what happens to them afterwards. Then it all just becomes someone else's problem and they can go back to armchair hypothesizing about some other thing..

 

[FireDragon76]

It's all really about power vs. life. Once those babies are born, then it typically doesn't matter what happens to them afterwards. Then it all just becomes someone else's problem and they can go back to armchair hypothesizing about some other thing..

Or is it about power over life? Implicit in all this is that freedom has no value, that we'ld all be better off without choices.

BTW, have you ever read Dostoyevsky's account of the The Grand Inquisitor? That's the ultimate parable of power vs. freedom.

 

[StillGods]

It's all really about power vs. life. Once those babies are born, then it typically doesn't matter what happens to them afterwards. Then it all just becomes someone else's problem and they can go back to armchair hypothesizing about some other thing..

in the situation with my friends grandchild that was killed I offered to adopt it so no it is not like that at all. sadly she went ahead and the doctor killed the baby so neither the grandmother or I were given the chance to look after it... yet more grief for everyone.
Abortion is just awful.