Dr. Willy Parker on reproductive rights

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FireDragon76

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Dr. Willie Parker reminds me of Dr. George Tiller, he had a similar story. Dr. Tiller also did not believe abortion was right when he first started practicing womens healthcare, but actually getting to know women's stories lead to a change in his perceptions of the issue.


His ethics are consistent with what Pr. Ed Knudson, in our own religious denomination, has had to say about the issue. It's not about being religiously correct or self-righteous, it's about responding to human needs that we encounter in our vocations.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Dr. Willie Parker reminds me of Dr. George Tiller, he had a similar story. Dr. Tiller also did not believe abortion was right when he first started practicing womens healthcare, but actually getting to know women's stories lead to a change in his perceptions of the issue.


His ethics are consistent with what Pr. Ed Knudson, in our own religious denomination, has had to say about the issue. It's not about being religiously correct or self-righteous, it's about responding to human needs that we encounter in our vocations.

I don't know anyone that thinks abortion is about being religiously correct or self righteous. If one insist that people with a different POV hold that POV simply because they wish harm to others or from a need to feel superior or to be controlling , IMO one is simply not listening.
 
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FireDragon76

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I don't know anyone that thinks abortion is about being religiously correct or self righteous. If one insist that people with a different POV hold that POV simply because they wish harm to others or from a need to feel superior or to be controlling , IMO one is simply not listening.

No doubt some people feel passionately about their pro-life values, but when that becomes entangled with patriarchal assumptions about women or dehumanization of people that don't agree, I find that deeply problematic.
 
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SPF

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Dr. Willie Parker reminds me of Dr. George Tiller, he had a similar story. Dr. Tiller also did not believe abortion was right when he first started practicing womens healthcare, but actually getting to know women's stories lead to a change in his perceptions of the issue.


His ethics are consistent with what Pr. Ed Knudson, in our own religious denomination, has had to say about the issue. It's not about being religiously correct or self-righteous, it's about responding to human needs that we encounter in our vocations.
That ranks up there with one of the absolute worst arguments for the morality of abortion. Absolute worst.

This man relates him performing abortions, where he literally kills an unborn child to the story of the woman caught in adultery that Jesus forgives in John 8. Analogous? Not even close.

In fact, the very first thing to point out is that he's basing his position on a picture that wasn't even accurate to the story. In his picture, the woman is surrounded by men who are already stoning her. This isn't at all the story Scripture provides:

The scribes and the Pharisees *brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they *said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."]

So the obvious problem from the outset is that this man is providing commentary on a scene and story that isn't even Biblical. Jesus didn't walk into the midst of a scene where men were actively stoning and killing a woman. We also aren't told what Jesus was writing in the ground. But this man's picture says the word "grace", so Jesus must have been writing grace. Furthermore, this man suggests that Grace might have even been the woman's name! I'm sorry, but this doesn't fly.

Furthermore, as most people do when arguing a position, he downplays what she did. He says things like "alleged" when it comes to the adultery as if to paint a picture that we aren't even sure this woman is guilty in the first place. Yet, Scripture is abundantly clear, with reason, that this woman was literally caught in the act of adultery. It's known. It's not alleged.

This is basically like someone taking a true story, and then completely changing it, making a movie and saying "based on real life events." So the story this man is operating from may be based upon a real Biblical story, but he's changed so much of it that we can't use it for a theological discussion.

And how does this fake story touch this man? How is it that Jesus forgiving a woman in the present for sin she committed in the past analogous to this man actively and presently killing an unborn human being? I'll give you a hint - it's not! It's not even close to an analogy.

He says, "In that story, I am Jesus" The problem is he's not. The problem is that he's actively engaging in abortion procedures. He's actively engaged in doing something immoral. Jesus was NOT actively engaged in doing something immoral. This man basically said that Jesus, Himself, would perform abortions.

FireDragon - the fact that you find something like this a compelling story for the moral appropriateness of abortion is beyond my comprehension.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Shortly after 8:25 in the video, and speaking from the standpoint of Christ treatment of the adulterous woman, he says we should have

"Deep compassion and action on the behalf of our fellow human beings"??

What about "deep compassion and action on behalf" of the thousands of children who cannot defend themselves? Seems to me they are human beings as well, and the ones that deserve/need deep compassion the most.

The Docs analogy is full of holes, and has left way to much out in his attempt to justify murdering babies. But that will make him very popular among the pro abortion crowd.
 
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SPF

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Shortly after 8:25 in the video, and speaking from the standpoint of Christ treatment of the adulterous woman, he says we should have

"Deep compassion and action on the behalf of our fellow human beings"??

What about "deep compassion and action on behalf" of the thousands of children who cannot defend themselves? Seems to me they are human beings as well, and the ones that deserve/need deep compassion the most.

The Docs analogy is full of holes, and has left way to much out in his attempt to justify murdering babies. But that will make him very popular among the pro abortion crowd.
The only way that I've seen people who call themselves Christians defend abortion is to do everything they can to completely ignore the value of the unborn child, and to address exclusively the woman. And even in doing that, they argue not from a Biblical perspective of surrender and submission to God, but from an American perspective of "rights".
 
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FireDragon76

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The only way that I've seen people who call themselves Christians defend abortion is to do everything they can to completely ignore the value of the unborn child, and to address exclusively the woman. And even in doing that, they argue not from a Biblical perspective of surrender and submission to God, but from an American perspective of "rights".

Human rights are acknowledged as part of respecting human dignity in my religious tradition. We recognize the equality of men and women. It is not an American perspective, it is a perspective widely shared among many Christians around the world.

I wasn't even trying to delegitimize your values, necessarily, or even debate anything. I was just presenting a different perspective in a conversation that is too often about demonizing people that don't agree with the political agenda of the white, evangelical right in this country.
 
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SPF

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Human rights are acknowledged as part of respecting human dignity in my religious tradition. We recognize the equality of men and women.
Right, you recognize the equality of men and women - but not innocent unborn children that possess the exact same inherent moral worth and value as adult men and women.
 
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FireDragon76

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Right, you recognize the equality of men and women - but not innocent unborn children that possess the exact same inherent moral worth and value as adult men and women.

That is an assumption that is a religious value of some people, mostly Catholics traditionally, but it is not supported by actual science- it's based on faith. As Dr. Parker says, the actual science is that life begins BEFORE conception.


 
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Kenny'sID

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The only way that I've seen people who call themselves Christians defend abortion is to do everything they can to completely ignore the value of the unborn child, and to address exclusively the woman. And even in doing that, they argue not from a Biblical perspective of surrender and submission to God, but from an American perspective of "rights".

That's what I noticed about the conclusion to the analogy.

Bottom line..."selfishness" The thing Christ is very much against.

And what happened to 'Love thy neighbor as thyself" there? Or "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?

Can any abortion advocate honestly say they would have others do that unto them if they were in the child's place? How bout you, FireDragon76, since you evidently agree with the Docs stance, would abortion be ok with you if you were in the child's place? Anyone?
 
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FireDragon76

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The fact that the man in the video literally sees himself as Jesus when he is performing abortions is nothing short of messed up.

He doesn't say that at all. In fact he says the opposite. He says he'ld like to see himself that way (in that way he's just being honest that he is as just as human as anybody else), but he acknowledges that is unreal.
 
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FireDragon76

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That's what I noticed about conclusion to the analogy.

Bottom line..."selfishness" The thing Christ is very much against.

And what happened to 'Love thy neighbor as thyself" there? Or "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?

Can any abortion advocate honestly say they would have others do that unto them if they were in the child's place? How bout you, FireDragon76, since you evidently agree with the Docs stance, would abortion be ok with you if you were in the child's place? Anyone?

I'm not in his shoes. I recognize its not my life and not my place to judge him. But I do appreciate that he has thought about this issue deeply beyond treating his religion in a superficial manner to justify himself, that he's sought to try to serve the needs of his neighbor that is presented to him in his vocation.
 
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Kenny'sID

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I'm not in his shoes. I recognize its not my life and not my place to judge him.

I said "if" you were in his shoes, but that's par for what I expected from the question..

The question has nothing to do with the man in the video.
 
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FireDragon76

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I said "if" you were in his shoes, but that's par for what I expected from the question..

The question has nothing to do with the man in the video.

But that's just it, ethics in my religious tradition is not done in the hypothetical, it involves being in authentic relationship with concrete persons. It is not safe to speculate about what I would do in his situation, because I'm not in his situation.
 
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SPF

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That is an assumption that is a religious value of some people, mostly Catholics traditionally, but it is not supported by actual science- it's based on faith. As Dr. Parker says, the actual science is that life begins BEFORE conception.
This guy is just wrong. Sure, the sperm is alive and the egg is alive, but a sperm on its own will always be a sperm, and an egg on its own will always be an egg. A sperm is not a human being, an egg is not a human being. It's a conception that a new and unique being comes into existence. That is the current scientific understanding. This man is grasping at anything to justify the killing of human beings, and frankly, he sucks at it.

And you're absolutely right that the inherent moral worth and value of human beings has absolutely nothing to do with science. It IS a Christian position. It's a Christian position that I've actually never heard anyone disagree with. I've heard people argue over salvation, predestination, etc... But I've never heard a Christian say they don't believe that human beings are created in the Image of God and that we don't possess inherent moral worth and value. That seems to be one of those pretty obviously true things that Scripture teaches.

And that is the really the point. Scripture teaches that all human beings possess inherent moral worth and value. There is not a single example in all of Scripture that would suggest there is ever a living human being that either doesn't have a soul, or isn't inherently morally valuable. I can't think of a single example in Scripture of a living human being that wasn't created in the Image of God.

He doesn't say that at all. In fact he says the opposite. He says he'ld like to see himself that way (in that way he's just being honest that he is as just as human as anybody else), but he acknowledges that is unreal.
Except he literally says, "In the story I'm Jesus"
 
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SPF

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But that's just it, ethics in my religious tradition is not done in the hypothetical
I always find it concerning when people consistently say things like this. Your "religious tradition" isn't Scripture. Honestly, you sound like a good JW that follows whatever the Watchtower says and is content to not dive into Scripture themselves. Honestly, nobody case what your religious tradition says or thinks. We care what Scripture says and teaches.
 
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FireDragon76

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I always find it concerning when people consistently say things like this. Your "religious tradition" isn't Scripture. Honestly, you sound like a good JW that follows whatever the Watchtower says and is content to not dive into Scripture themselves. Honestly, nobody case what your religious tradition says or thinks. We care what Scripture says and teaches.

This is the church that God has called me to. Just because I don't resort to fundamentalist biblicism doesn't mean I don't care about the truthfulness of my religion. When I read Scriptures, my church is more or less what I find happening in Jesus' ministry. We are not perfect but it's closer than any other church I have ever been in.
 
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SPF

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This is the church that God has called me to. Just because I don't resort to fundamentalist biblicism doesn't mean I don't care about the truthfulness of my religion. When I read Scriptures, my church is more or less what I find happening in Jesus' ministry. We are not perfect but it's closer than any other church I have ever been in.
Great, then there's no reason you can't say "I believe Scripture teaches" as opposed to "my religious tradition believes". Just a word to the wise as people won't consider your religious tradition as possessing any authority, whereas Scripture does possess authority.
 
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Kenny'sID

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But that's just it, ethics in my religious tradition is not done in the hypothetical, it involves being in authentic relationship with concrete persons. It is not safe to speculate about what I would do in his situation, because I'm not in his situation.

Because you are not in the situation makes the question unsafe?
Why?? You forgot to mention the basis for that "fact".

What's really unsafe, is for you or any other advocator of abortion to answer, the very reason the question will be avoided like the plague.

Like I said, I got what I expected from the question.
 
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