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Vance

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Buck, how much have you studied the subject in general? What percentage of your investigation of these matters is actually Hovind himself?

Are you aware that he has actually been all but disowned, and his integrity called into question, by the leading Young Earth Creation Groups?

His science only sounds good to those who don't know any better. He purposefully uses facts he knows to have been proven false, he uses debate tactics rather than factual evidence to persuade people. He will only debate with his opponents live, rather than in writing for this reason. He is persuasive the way Hitler was persuasive. If you are going to tell a lie, tell a big one and make sure it what the audience wants to hear!

The attacks on him are so virulent from both Christians and non-Christians for different reasons. Christians realize he is a huge detriment to the cause of Christianity and non-Christians are annoyed by the way he misrepresents the facts and persuades the gullible to remain in ignorance.

Please read all the Hovind threads around here before you make judgments about our conclusions.
 
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troodon

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Buck72 said:
I have viewed his seminar and studied his series carefully. His science is solid.
ROFL, his science is solid? Here's an example of his "science":

"the "ancient horse" (hyracotherium) is not a horse, but is just like the hyrax still alive in turkey and east africa today "- Kent Hovind

I'd say you need to study his series more closely.
Now...give the man a modicum of credit. He is a warrior for the truth of God and he will be vindicated by his Lord
That is not an excuse for lying. A bad tree does not produce good apples. His judgement will come.


For those of you who sit on your fat parts at home and type up a bunch of garbage against a man you do not even know or have taken the time to learn from yourself - shame on you.
Unless I'm mistaken, you are doing the same thing to us. Which did Christ denounce the worst? The sinners or the hypocrites?

Perhaps you'd be better off matching his laudable level of productivity in some area where you could offer a positive contribution, if that's even possible. :sleep:
You think lying to people is a "positive contribution"?
 
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Vance

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Oh, btw, I actually had one Hovind groupie tell me that it really didn't matter whether he was telling the truth or had his facts straight. If he misrepresented something and it was able to persuade someone not to believe in evolution or that the earth is billions of years old, then in the end it was a good thing.

Of course, this attitude should be abhorrent to any true Christian, but I wonder how many YEC's would go along with this person.
 
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wblastyn

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TruthTraveler said:
Dr. Hovind has better things to do with his time then chat on a Forum, plus I don't think he is that computer literate. And I think he is about 2-6 months behind on e-mails.
Like thinking up more lies to deceive gulliable creationists?
 
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wblastyn

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TruthTraveler said:
Yeah, nothing like a black and white pic.

Plus if you are only getting his info from the site you are only getting 20% of his info.
The videos should convert any Atheist with an open mind.
They should convert anyone who knows nothing about science.
 
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wblastyn

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Buck72 said:
I'm suprised to find so many here that seem to not only disagree with Dr. Hovind, but unashamedly despise the man. For some of you, he must be striking pretty close to the mark to elicit such a virulent response that borders on hate.

We don't hate him, we just don't like how he lies to gulliable creationists. He gives them a simple explaination that anyone can understand as to why evolution is false and you believe it because he tells you what you want to hear.

I have viewed his seminar and studied his series carefully. His science is solid. He does have a rather dry sense of humor, and he hates evolution activists fouling up the textbooks with "science" that automatically converts theory to fact without any empirical evidence. His platform is what he feels is his calling: To advance creation science in the face of OVERWHELMING opposition from politically-inclined evolutionists that despise him to the core of his baptist soul. Evolution does have plenty of gaping holes to poke your finger in...just deal with it!
Are you really qualified to make that judgement? Lets find out...what is evolution?

Now...give the man a modicum of credit. He is a warrior for the truth of God and he will be vindicated by his Lord, either now, or in the age to come. For those of you who sit on your fat parts at home and type up a bunch of garbage against a man you do not even know or have taken the time to learn from yourself - shame on you.

He's a liar and a fraud who feeds you information you want to hear and in a simple form so you can bring it back to your "Wednesday Night Bible Study"
(as Lorenz would say lol) and astonish all your scientifically illiterate chums by "falsifying evolution" (of course you actually falsify a strawman) and showing anyone can falsify a scientific theory.

Perhaps you'd be better off matching his laudable level of productivity in some area where you could offer a positive contribution, if that's even possible. :sleep:
Perhaps you should read a Biology text book then see how "solid" his science is. Oh I forgot, "The Evil Atheist Conspiracy" has tampered with the text books, replacing "The Truth" with Evilushonist propaganda in an attempt to take over the world and crush Christianity.
 
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ThePhoenix

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Buck72 said:
I'm suprised to find so many here that seem to not only disagree with Dr. Hovind, but unashamedly despise the man. For some of you, he must be striking pretty close to the mark to elicit such a virulent response that borders on hate.
Yeah, despise is a good word for it. I despise someone who unashamedly lies, repeatedly. I despise someone who is so dishonest that other creationists have disavowed his work. I despise someone who preys on the gullability of others. I despise someone who doesn't pay his taxes. I despise someone who got a Ph.D. with a thesis that is pure BS.

I must have logged into the wrong forum...I was looking for http://www.christianforums.com
I didn't know there was an angry mob out to destroy Kent Hovind.

I have viewed his seminar and studied his series carefully. His science is solid. He does have a rather dry sense of humor, and he hates evolution activists fouling up the textbooks with "science" that automatically converts theory to fact without any empirical evidence. His platform is what he feels is his calling: To advance creation science in the face of OVERWHELMING opposition from politically-inclined evolutionists that despise him to the core of his baptist soul. Evolution does have plenty of gaping holes to poke your finger in...just deal with it!
How noble, the brave knight, Sir Kent Hovind riding out to do battle with the eviloutionists. Makes me all teary inside. Perhaps you'd like to point out those gaping holes? Oh wait, they all get filled when you point them out. If you think they don't, try it. Post any point you like.

Now...give the man a modicum of credit. He is a warrior for the truth of God and he will be vindicated by his Lord, either now, or in the age to come. For those of you who sit on your fat parts at home and type up a bunch of garbage against a man you do not even know or have taken the time to learn from yourself - shame on you.
The noble knight, Kent Hovind, off to fight he goes. Soon the evilutionists will tremble. Oh wait, he hasn't actually done anything.


Perhaps you'd be better off matching his laudable level of productivity in some area where you could offer a positive contribution, if that's even possible. :sleep:
Rule #2, just broken. As usual it's easier to flame then prove an unprovable point.
 
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TheBear

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A reminder to all:

This is the "Creation Science & Theistic Evolution" forum. Only Christians are permitted to post here. If you are a non-Christian, please refrain from posting here. There is another forum, "Science, Creation & Evolution", which is in the open forums area, and all are permitted to post in that forum. This one is for Christians Only.
 
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TheBear

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Buck72 said:
I'm suprised to find so many here that seem to not only disagree with Dr. Hovind, but unashamedly despise the man. For some of you, he must be striking pretty close to the mark to elicit such a virulent response that borders on hate.

I must have logged into the wrong forum...I was looking for http://www.christianforums.com I didn't know there was an angry mob out to destroy Kent Hovind.

I have viewed his seminar and studied his series carefully. His science is solid. He does have a rather dry sense of humor, and he hates evolution activists fouling up the textbooks with "science" that automatically converts theory to fact without any empirical evidence. His platform is what he feels is his calling: To advance creation science in the face of OVERWHELMING opposition from politically-inclined evolutionists that despise him to the core of his baptist soul. Evolution does have plenty of gaping holes to poke your finger in...just deal with it!

Now...give the man a modicum of credit. He is a warrior for the truth of God and he will be vindicated by his Lord, either now, or in the age to come. For those of you who sit on your fat parts at home and type up a bunch of garbage against a man you do not even know or have taken the time to learn from yourself - shame on you.

Perhaps you'd be better off matching his laudable level of productivity in some area where you could offer a positive contribution, if that's even possible. :sleep:
I can understand what you are saying, Buck. We as Christians should not be demonizing another Christian, no matter who they are. And, I fully agree with that. :)

Too many times, in the heat of discussions, people tend to target the person instead of the person's position statements. I believe that Kent Hovind is a Christian who is extremely dedicated to the Lord. There's no doubt in my mind about that.

I do have problems with his claims about how science supports a young earth, however. Most of his 'scientific findings' are not validated by the scientific community as a whole, have not been published in any scientific journals, and are generally targeted to the layman with limited scientific knowledge, and therefore have no reference point to judge his claims. Even the Christian website, "Answers in Genesis", has distanced itself from many of Hovind'd claims.

Now if he just said, "According to my interpretation of scripture, I believe the earth is young.", and left it at that, we would not be having this discussion. But, the moment he starts making scientific claims to back his position, he opens himself to scrutiny from the scientific community....just like any other scientific claim is subject to. His claims happen to fail miserably in the scientific community, thus, none of his findings are published in the international scientific journals.

If one wants to believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis, that's great. That is a personal choice, between them and God. But, once that belief is placed in the scientific arena, they had better be prepared for some serious scrutiny and arguments from the scientists in most disciplines.

Science remains neutral in regards to God. Science is not out to prove or disprove God. There is no "Science vs God".
 
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Buck72

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I may have discovered the problem you all have with Hovind...he makes evolution look stupid. I must ask, how many of you folks here actually believe in evolution?

I defended a man who is railed against without cause other than a host of staunch accusations that he is a "liar", but there seems to be an evidence deficit. The tiny horse comparison seems hysterical enough, I'm certain there is more to it than you presented troodon. I'll look into it with the whole story instead of some unsubstantiated snippet from "google.com"

AiG seems to find fault with him, but suprise, they are an "interpretive" biblical research ministry while Hovind is "literal". AiG does not take the word of God literally, they feel it needs to be interpreted. Okay - that settles the LIAR thing. Now let's start a thread about literal verses interpretive, we'll have plenty to go for that one I'm sure.

I do not agree with many of you, nor will you agree with me, but that doesn't make any of us liars outright does it? Now, I do have a bone to pick with evolution, so indulge me in a small rant:

If you guys are so sold on evolution and can beyond a shadow of reasonable doubt prove it...

Prove it. I dare you...start another thread, I'll be happy to indulge you with backwards ideas that God actually created the heavens and the earth in 6 literal days, the flood, etc. I'm game.

Evolution is a destructive theory that has fostered a fanatical cult following of people that hate God and despise any form of biblical counsel. It is as religious as it claims to be scientific.

It is the most magnificent lie of our time and oh how many turn their backs to God to induldge in its sweet offer to "have it your way". Evolution is a backstage pass to sin without consequence. Why not support it? Hey I can live life to the fullest without all of the obedience to some "imaginary" God that those dumb creationists argue made this place.

Hovind has a successful, soul-winning ministry. I have many family, and friends that actually have brains capable of critical, scientific thought, who have either renewed or found faith through Hovind's efforts. This guy isn't scamming people, he really cares about people. He cares about science. He is by no means without flaw, who the heck is? But he is living a brighter life for Christ than most of us - why the despising of this guy Phoenix? Who are you? And troodon - come on.

Evolutionists rebuffed by Peter:

2Pe 3:3-7 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

"Willingly ignorant" means "Stupid on purpose"

wblastyn: My qualifications consist of a MS is Physics and Aerodynamics. Now, granted that doesn't make me superman when it comes to evolutionary biology, but I do understand the fundamentals of physical matter clearly enough to know the difference between solid science and artificial science. I'm also a christian, and know the difference between a real christian and a fake one; I see character clearly enough to testify that Hovind is real - I'm not sure where AiG is, but they seem a bit argumentative...I'll look into them more closely. I believe in the Beginning 'God'...you may argue in the Beginning 'Dirt'. Well, I believe I may have missed your qualifications in your questioning of my own - do you have any beliefs of your own? Most folks that attack Hovind seem to be from the subjective relativism crowd that holds to a "dogma du jour" philosophy; "What's today's special, Reverend? Is it okay to kill babies, or marry gays now, or should we wait until enough political pressure causes us to change our mind (and doctrine) next year?"

Romans 1 makes a better point than I can. God's word does that better than our words. Thanks for allowing me the rant fellas. Good night.

Rom 1:18-32 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
 
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Bushido216

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Ya know, evolution is agnostic... you can look at it merely as the way God works, much like I do.

Either that, or he did great the earth is 6 days, but put all this evidence here to confound us.

Also, Buck72, Hovind is a liar. For instance, his Ph.D, is questionable at best, his claims are lies, his ministry is a lie. When everyone including the leading creationist sites claim he's a looney, he's a looney. It's basically the duck theory. If it moves, quacks, and acts like a duck, it's a duck.

There's a bunch of links which I don't have on me that explain this better than I can. Post this in the Science, Creation, and Evolution forum and see how fast Hovind is torn to pieces.

I should not, however, that if he has brought people to God, that's great and all, but that doesn't make him any more truthful.
 
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troodon

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Buck72 said:
I may have discovered the problem you all have with Hovind...he makes evolution look stupid
No, he makes his own cartoon version of evolution look stupid. And he needs to lie to do it.

I must ask, how many of you folks here actually believe in evolution?
I accept the theory of evolution as fact.

I defended a man who is railed against without cause other than a host of staunch accusations that he is a "liar", but there seems to be an evidence deficit.
You want more evidence? Fine.

The Smithsonian Institute has 33,000 sets of human remains in their basement right now as you are reading this. Many of them were taken while the people were still alive. They were so desperate to find missing links, so desperate to prove their theory that they murdered people to prove it.
- Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 4 - a transcript of Kent Hovind's early sermons circa 1996.

This is a lie. The Smithsonian never killed anyone; they acquired the corpses of native peoples who were already being killed. Horrible indeed, but not what he explains here. Also, the acquiring of the bones had far more to do with a fear that the natives were going to be extinct soon than trying to "prove" evolution. I have no idea how the bones of aboriginal peoples would validate evolution. :confused:

Here is a detailed explanation of another Hovind lie.

The tiny horse comparison seems hysterical enough, I'm certain there is more to it than you presented troodon. I'll look into it with the whole story instead of some unsubstantiated snippet from "google.com"
Nope, that's it. It's a plain ol' lie. From here:

"Some museums exclude Eohippus entirely because it is identical to the rabbit-like hyrax (daman) now living in Africa"

Also, the fact that this can be shown false by a simple google search shows how little he cares about lying; it shows how much research he thinks his followers will do into his claims.

AiG seems to find fault with him, but suprise, they are an "interpretive" biblical research ministry while Hovind is "literal". AiG does not take the word of God literally, they feel it needs to be interpreted.
What does AiG not interpret literally?

Okay - that settles the LIAR thing.
lol, only if you admit that he lies.

Now let's start a thread about literal verses interpretive, we'll have plenty to go for that one I'm sure.
go right ahead

I do not agree with many of you, nor will you agree with me, but that doesn't make any of us liars outright does it?
None of us have called you a liar because we have no evidence to support such a claim. This is not true of Hovind.

Now, I do have a bone to pick with evolution, so indulge me in a small rant:

If you guys are so sold on evolution and can beyond a shadow of reasonable doubt prove it...
Science cannot prove anything. We accept evolution because it is the only theory that explains all the evidence.

. I dare you...start another thread, I'll be happy to indulge you with backwards ideas that God actually created the heavens and the earth in 6 literal days, the flood, etc. I'm game.
Did someone else say this to you? I'm confused.

Evolution is a destructive theory that has fostered a fanatical cult following of people that hate God
I do not hate God, I love Him.


and despise any form of biblical counsel. It is as religious as it claims to be scientific.
Is forensic science a "religion" as well?

It is the most magnificent lie of our time
Nope, YEC is the lie buddy.

and oh how many turn their backs to God to induldge in its sweet offer to "have it your way". Evolution is a backstage pass to sin without consequence. Why not support it? Hey I can live life to the fullest without all of the obedience to some "imaginary" God that those dumb creationists argue made this place.
What are you talking about? Evolution does not remove the evil that is sin. Evolution does nothing to disprove God. Evolution does nothing to disprove God. I believe in the same God that you do despite my acceptance of evolution. It is not our fault that you think using a disproved theory is a good way to evangelize; that's your fault and I'm sorry you're so bad at discussing your faith that you have to use it.

Hovind has a successful, soul-winning ministry.
The ends do not justify the means. As I said earlier, a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

I have many family, and friends that actually have brains capable of critical, scientific thought, who have either renewed or found faith through Hovind's efforts.
Because you have not looked at all the evidence. Here are *some* of the falsifications of YEC:

The organization of fossils spanning the American midwest

The world's biogeography showing that a global flood could not have occured

Features of the Grand Canyon that could not exist if a global flood occured

Lines of evidence revolving around the Hawaiian Islands which falsify a global flood

Further evidence from the Hawaiian Islands which falsify a global flood

The presence of angular nonconformities falsify a global flood

The presence of varves falsify a global flood

The sheer mathematical impossibility of a global flood falsifies it

Extensive salt deposits falsify a global flood

Massive volcanic events and large impact craters falsify a young earth

Here can be seen Frumious Bandersnatches analysis of massive, quick tectonic changes required to quickly raise mountains

Y chromosome DNA falsifies the theory that the MRCA for humanity lived 4,500 years ago

Useless features (such as my elephant bird's humerus) falsify an "intelligent" designer

Same with these whale hindlimbs

Same with these vestigial structures (genetic and otherwise)

Cultures extending through the proposed date of a global flood falsify it

The inability of YECs to determine which strata are pre, post, and flood strata make's their stance on scientific ground shaky

This set of dinosaur footprints falsifies a global flood

The cosmic microwave background falsifies a young universe

Stellar distances falsify a young universe

The following characteristics of certain genes, proteins, and endogenous retroviruses provide evidence for evolution and falsify a "non-deceptive" creator

The enormous amount of transitional fossils falsify special creation by anything but a creator looking to trick us

Corresponding dates arrived with radiometric dating falsify beyond a shadow of a doubt a young earth

Dendrochronology falsifies a young earth

Please use your mind (which is capable of critical thinking) to open your eyes.

This guy isn't scamming people, he really cares about people.
IMO, Hovind does truly care about his followers. He cares so much about their souls that he is willing to lie to them to save them. I think that is wrong, others may disagree.

He cares about science.
No, he cares about looking scientific. That's why he got his undeserved Ph.D.

He is by no means without flaw, who the heck is?
I don't think anyone expects him to be.

See, here's the rub. Have you noticed that none of us are calling ICR or AiG liars? That's because they aren't. Promoting YEC does not necessarily make one a liar. Hovind is a special case in which lies are routinely used to promote his beliefs.

But he is living a brighter life for Christ than most of us
I wouldn't say that...

Who are you? And troodon - come on.
Who am I? I am a sinner, I am a college student, I am an aspiring student of paleontology. I am most importantly a Christian. I do not dispise Hovind, I believe him to be sincere, but I dispise what he does to people. Lies are never a good thing, no matter how many souls they win.

Evolutionists rebuffed by Peter:

2Pe 3:3-7 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Yes, or you could actually read that the way it was meant to be read and see that he's talking about unbelievers. Why do you pervert the Bible like this?

"Willingly ignorant" means "Stupid on purpose"
Yes, YECs I know; I know.

Edit: I have no idea why the second half of my post looks like this.
 
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Buck72

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Wow troodon - you claim to love God and yet you openly despise His word, even disregarding the flood that left its scars on every mountain pass, valley and ocean flloor? How can you love God and hate the word? Is your science superior to God's word? I give Hovind credit because he makes sense on both fields. I do not accept that God is in one corner, while science contends with him in another.

Get a grip - please. You've been brainwashed by evolution to the point its is the only lens that you can see from.

Let's observe your remarkable debate skills:

Why do you pervert the Bible like this?


HOW CAN YOU ACCUSE ME OF "PERVERTING THE BIBLE" WHEN I MERELY QUOTED IT? YOU DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS PAL; OH WAIT:

YOU ARE TOO BUSY CARVING OUT THE PARTS THAT DON'T MESH WITH YOUR EVOLUTION T-H-E-O-R-Y.

Now if I were a "scientist" like you, I would call THAT perverting the Bible!

Best wishes troodon - I wish you well in your pursuits...you'll hopefully figure it all out someday.
 
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troodon

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Buck72 said:
Wow troodon - you claim to love God and yet you openly despise His word
Putting words in my mouth which you know to be untrue. Thank you very much.

even disregarding the flood that left its scars on every mountain pass, valley and ocean flloor?
What flood? If you would actually look at the evidence you would see there was no flood.

How can you love God and hate the word?
I do not hate the Bible, I merely understand what it was given to us for.

Is your science superior to God's word?
The enormous amount of science we have disproving a young earth is superior to that interpretation of the Bible.

Get a grip - please. You've been brainwashed by evolution to the point its is the only lens that you can see from.
I love rhetoric too but let's try and stay focused here.

HOW CAN YOU ACCUSE ME OF "PERVERTING THE BIBLE" WHEN I MERELY QUOTED IT? YOU DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS PAL
You're lying; I guess Hovind is infectious. You said Peter was talking about evolutionists in that quote (which is drawing a conclusion if I'm not mistaken) and in order to come to that conclusion you have to absolutely ignore what that passage was written about; unbelievers.

OH WAIT:

YOU ARE TOO BUSY CARVING OUT THE PARTS THAT DON'T MESH WITH YOUR EVOLUTION T-H-E-O-R-Y.
I don't carve out anything of the Bible; mine contains the exact same books as yours (unless you're Catholic which I doubt because Hovind hates Catholics as much as the KKK does). You see, unlike you, I do not read the Bible in some bland "everything must be literal" manner because it is not written like that. Genesis 2 could not possibly scream allegory more. Come on man, the "tree of knowledge"? Only "Pilgrim's Progress" approaches Genesis 2 for obvious allegory.

Best wishes troodon - I wish you well in your pursuits...you'll hopefully figure it all out someday.
Thanks, I hope you stop worshiping the Bible someday.

That was cool how you completely ignored that evidence. You didn't even acknowledge its existance!

I laughed :D

Edit to add: and it was cool how you completely ignored the examples of Hovind's lies. Although I didn't laugh at that
 
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TheBear

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Buck72 said:
I may have discovered the problem you all have with Hovind...he makes evolution look stupid. I must ask, how many of you folks here actually believe in evolution?
Ever watch a political comedian make a joke that makes your political party look stupid? It happens all the time. They usually come off as being right on the mark, and get overwhelming audience aplause and laughter. Why? Because most in the audience are pre-disposed to believing that the other political party is stupid. But, if you to pick apart everything in the 'joke', you see many flaws in logic and accuracy. To some Christians, Hovind makes evolution look stupid. Why? Because the audience is already pre-disposed to believing that evolution is stupid. But, once his claims are closely examined and scrutinized, you will find many flaws in his logic and accuracy.

I believe that God created everything. The how's, the mechanisms, and the specifics are what we are looking at here.

If you guys are so sold on evolution and can beyond a shadow of reasonable doubt prove it...

Prove it. I dare you...start another thread, I'll be happy to indulge you with backwards ideas that God actually created the heavens and the earth in 6 literal days, the flood, etc. I'm game.
The overwhelming evidence, from a wide variety of scientific disciplines, has already proven that the earth is not nearly as young as Hovind claims. The burden of proof is on you to come up with a better explaination for the diversity of life. Keep in mind, the Nobel Prize is yours for the taking if you can overturn hundreds of thousands of scientific studies, from a span of more than 150 years, from scientists in a wide variety of disciplines, from all over the world, with different religious beliefs....many who are Christians.

Evolution is a destructive theory that has fostered a fanatical cult following of people that hate God and despise any form of biblical counsel. It is as religious as it claims to be scientific.

I don't hate God. I love the Lord with all my heart, my mind and my soul. The scientists who are also Christians don't hate God. The Christians who believe that God created the diversity of life through an evolutionary process don't hate God. We may be all wrong about this, and we are willing to admit if we are, but this don't mean we hate God.


It is the most magnificent lie of our time and oh how many turn their backs to God to induldge in its sweet offer to "have it your way". Evolution is a backstage pass to sin without consequence. Why not support it? Hey I can live life to the fullest without all of the obedience to some "imaginary" God that those dumb creationists argue made this place.
How so? :scratch:


Evolutionists rebuffed by Peter:

2Pe 3:3-7 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

"Willingly ignorant" means "Stupid on purpose"
You will be hard pressed to convince anyone that the scientific community, and especially all the advances in medical biology, are based on "Stupidity on purpose".


Bottom line, if you are going to stick with a literal interpretation of scripture, that's fine. Just say that you believe this, or don't belive that, because the Bible tells you so, and end it with that. I'll respect that.

But, if you decide to make science prove things for you, there are some serious obstacles in front of you. The ToE may have a few unresolved issues, but as a whole, it stands up to the most ardent scrutiny. 'Scientific Creationism' is nothing but unresolved issues, and falls flat on it's face.
 
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wblastyn

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Buck72 said:
YOU ARE TOO BUSY CARVING OUT THE PARTS THAT DON'T MESH WITH YOUR EVOLUTION T-H-E-O-R-Y.

Now if I were a "scientist" like you, I would call THAT perverting the Bible!

Best wishes troodon - I wish you well in your pursuits...you'll hopefully figure it all out someday.
If you have an MSc in physics how come you don't even know what a Scientific theory is?

Btw, I'm a theistic evolutionist. I am also a student studying biology.
 
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Buck72

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Buck72, you've degenerated this into a screaming match.
Well Bushido that was not my intent, and I aologize for allowing myself the indulgence of irritation by folks that refuse to so much as acknowledge the word and still, for reasons I cannot undertsand, manage to call themselves "christian".

I will confess this: I did not realize I had wandered into an evolutionist forum - whoops. I wan't looking to pick a fight, I merely expressed justifiable concern when a fellow brother in Christ was being lambasted a liar. If you wouldn't mind backing up a few pages, you'll see that I took the posture of calling folks out for mob-like lynching behavior toward a brother that has proven himself over and over to be a fellow heir worthy of simple professional, let alone spiritual, Christ-like courtesy.

Who needs to grow up Bushido? Maybe you guys ought to wander over to the YEC forums?

And yes, wblastyn, thankyou for keeping me honest. I do know what a theory is. Theory and fact are not the same. Evolution was theory (still is as far as I can tell) until it began to replace any refernece to creation in the textbooks, science journals, and universities. It is a public, tangible platform for man to deny God. How can I be making this up? I have better things to do with my time.

A singular fact that a theory cannot answer, disqualies that theory. ie: The Geologic Column. It has never been observed anywhere in the natural realm other than museums (carefully contructed by artists) and textbooks. Many evolutionists know this theory is garbage, but it is still commonly used to date fossils according to the strata they are discovered in, and likewise the strata is dated by the fossils...whoa. Somebody is lying.

:scratch:

The earth's magnetic field is decaying (it used to be stronger - how strong could it have been to support life?), the lunar orbit (it's getting further away...it used to be closer - how close? The tides alone would have been disasterous 20,000 years ago) these are just a couple...there are many, I'll get more into later in another forum. I'll stick around your forum if you do not mind.

Bottom line: I wasn't making an effort to turn this into a screaming match. Why don't you ask troodon was his intentions were - oh wait, he's an evolutionist - you guys have to keep tight and collectively harangue and slander the YEC guy. Are you guys by chance, Democrats?
 
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troodon

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Buck72 said:
I will confess this: I did not realize I had wandered into an evolutionist forum - whoops
Was that supposed to be an insult?:confused:

I wan't looking to pick a fight, I merely expressed justifiable concern when a fellow brother in Christ was being lambasted a liar.
Yes, allegations which you have yet to refute.

Maybe you guys ought to wander over to the YEC forums?
What YEC forums? The only "YEC forum" I've ever seen was in the habit of banning evolutionists.

Theory and fact are not the same. Evolution was theory (still is as far as I can tell)
It is theory in the same way that general relativity is a theory. It is supported by mounds of evidence but there is always the possibility that it doesn't work in all cases.

[qutoe]until it began to replace any refernece to creation in the textbooks, science journals, and universities.[/quote] ROFL, creation was never in textbooks or science journals; it was falsified long before Nature or Science came around.

It is a public, tangible platform for man to deny God.
No, it is the only possible explanation for the diversity of life we see on the planet.

How can I be making this up?
It's not that hard. I think Creationism is a much greater threat to Christianity because it demands its followers not only disregard scientific evidence but also believe in a God that wants the world to disagree with him.

A singular fact that a theory cannot answer, disqualies that theory. ie: The Geologic Column. It has never been observed anywhere in the natural realm
False

other than museums (carefully contructed by artists) and textbooks.
Got any pictures we can look at? I've never seen an artist's rendering of the entire geologic column.

Many evolutionists know this theory is garbage
Unsupported generalization. Thank you, come again!

but it is still commonly used to date fossils according to the strata they are discovered in, and likewise the strata is dated by the fossils...whoa. Somebody is lying.
This is patently false. Radiometric dating is almost always the final answer in how old strata is (I say 'almost' even though I've never heard of instances where it wasn't). I will provide an example. In 1997 Chinese paleontologists began excavating the Yixian in Northern China. Based on what they were seeing (primitive birds, small Compsagnathan theropods, and dinosaurs with bristle-like feathers) they estimated the date to be in the late Jurassic. But, then to double check the date, they K-Ar dated it. The result was early Cretaceous. That strata is to this day dated as early Cretaceous. Your claim is false.

The earth's magnetic field is decaying (it used to be stronger - how strong could it have been to support life?), the lunar orbit (it's getting further away...it used to be closer - how close?
See here for the refutations of these claims.

these are just a couple...there are many
Bring um on.

I'll get more into later in another forum. I'll stick around your forum if you do not mind.
Come on back, by all means.

Why don't you ask troodon was his intentions were
What do you mean my intentions. Last time I checked you have yet to respond to either the examples of Hovind's lies or the evidence falsifying a young earth. My intentions are to rid the world of the social disease of YEC; a lofty goal ;)

oh wait, he's an evolutionist - you guys have to keep tight and collectively harangue and slander the YEC guy.
Where were you slandered?

Are you guys by chance, Democrats?
Our political affiliations are not at issue here.
 
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