Doubting salvation. Plz help

[stuart lawrence]

I'm not sure Stuart. I don't know how/why I went from having such a passing understanding of my wrongdoing (such that I saw no real need for Christ as Savior), to understanding how lost I really was in my sins and seeing no way out from under them. I should have, because I knew what I was doing was wrong (intellectually anyway), but I had a heart of stone which could not respond to such knowledge as it should have, IOW, in faith .. Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3.

God had to step in, and PTL, He did

Let me help you out. You cannot have a conscience at your sin if you have no conviction of sin. Which proves your muddle and misunderstanding of this subject. And your interpretation of Bible verses has not been that good I am afraid

 

[St_Worm2]

Well you are either a Christian or heathen, there us no middle ground. But I will rephrase

Does your minister believe gal3:23-25 refers to non believers in this day and age, those in an unsaved state?

My present minister, as well every pastor/theologian that I've ever heard preach/teach in the last 30 years, believe that those who are not believers, IOW, those who are not "already" saved by grace through faith, are being "kept in custody under the Law" .. Galatians 3:23) and will face God's judgment and condemnation on the basis of their works at the Great White Throne (unless they come to faith and become Christians before they die, that is ). They would all say that this is just as true today as it was for our progenitors, or for those living at the time of Moses, etc.

IOW, all teach that we will either stand before God and be judged and condemned eternally on the basis of what we've done, or we will come to faith and be justified/saved on the basis of what Christ has done instead

They also, as one voice, teach that one who is truly saved, is also "changed", e.g. Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3; Galatians 6:15; 2 Corinthians 5:17, and that there will always be "proof" or evidence that demonstrates/ justifies such a change in the life of one who claims to have become a Christian .. Ephesians 2:10; James 2:17, 24 (e.g. the 24/7 desire to obey/please God in all that we do/say/think, the choice to live a holy, rather than continue in a sinful lifestyle .. like we used to live in as non-Christians, the desire to do good works for His glory, etc.) .. or one's "claim" of becoming a Christian should be regarded as nothing more than that

Finally, it should be noted that all believe salvation is particular, not universal, according to the Bible and the church. If you hold to a "universal salvation", then we are definitely not going to believe the same thing. But the church teaches what it does because of what the Bible teaches, IOW that some will be saved (eternally) while others will be lost (eternally).

Again, if you believe in any form of "universal salvation", I can certainly see where our differences in understanding are coming from in this thread!

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[stuart lawrence]

My present minister, as well every pastor/theologian that I've ever heard preach/teach in the last 30 years, believe that those who are not believers, IOW, those who are not "already" saved by grace through faith, are being "kept in custody under the Law" .. Galatians 3:23) and will face God's judgment and condemnation on the basis of their works at the Great White Throne (unless they come to faith and become Christians before they die, that is ). They would all say that this is just as true today as it was for our progenitors, or for those living at the time of Moses, etc.

IOW, all teach that we will either stand before God and be condemned eternally on the basis of what we've done, or we will come to faith and be justified/saved on the basis of what Christ has done instead

They also, as one voice, teach that one who is truly saved, is also "changed", e.g. Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3; Galatians 6:15; 2 Corinthians 5:17, and that there will always be "proof" or evidence that demonstrates/ justifies such a change in the life of one so changed by God .. Ephesians 2:10; James 2:17, 24 (e.g. the 24/7 desire to obey/please God in all that we do/say/think, the choice to live a holy, rather than continue in a sinful lifestyle .. like we used to as non-Christians, the desire to do good works, etc.) .. or one's "claim" of becoming a Christian should be regarded as nothing more than that

Finally, it should be noted that all believe salvation is particular, not universal, according the Bible and the church anyway. If you hold to a "universal salvation", then we are definitely not going to believe the same thing. The church teaches what it does because of what the Bible teaches, IOW that some will be saved (eternally) while others will be lost (eternally).

Again, if you believe in any form of "universal salvation", I can certainly see where our differences in understanding are coming from in this thread!

Yours in Christ,
David

Does your minister believe Paul wrote.concerning non believers in gal3:23-25 or in relation to those who had been under the old covenant?
That is what i would like to know

 

[JesusForAll]

Hey bro, I'm a fairly new Christian compared to some but I've already had crises concerning this issue. What I do know is that if we as Christians abide in Him then no one and nothing can take us from Him.

The famous verse of John 3:16 says ...that whosever believeth shall not perish but have eternal life... Beleiveth is a present participle and if reread concerning this it would read : ...whosoever believing shall not perish... it's a state of currently believing. I really don't like the once saved always saved mantra that some churches put out its deceiving and I always struggled with it concerning scripture and never got a good answer when I would ask my pastor or deacons. No blame on them but it was church doctrine and I believed it for a time.

But as I grew in Christ I found there are many other verses indicating that we as Christians need to abide in Him and also that it is possible to fall away. I believe falling away is part of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, where we consciously turn away from Him fully knowing what we are doing.

The great thing about God though is that there is no condemnation in Christ for those who abide in Him. I believe it is always possible to turn back to Him. I'm not talking about living life and sinning along the way and then repenting of that stuff, but fully turning your back on Him, denying Him.

I don't believe that is what you did, but like you, that is what I thought I had done and that's where I fell into crisis mode. I realize now that it was satan lying to me and trying to keep me in bondage not knowing the full truth that death is defeated and all I had to do was set my eyes back on Him.

Don't get me wrong, there is very real temptation for Christians and we all have to consciously abide in God and not revert back to the flesh where the devil operates. We always have free will, it is part of Gods image that we were made in. We can choose to live according to the Spirit or the flesh. But when we stumble during our growth in Christ we learn and Holy Spirit teaches us and comforts us in Christ. The man Paul talked about in (1 Corinthians) who was sleeping with his fathers wife, he was to be out of the congregation because he was already living in the world, so, to the world he went fully living in it. When he was put out he later repented, turned back to God,(2 Corinthians) and was accepted back into the congregation, with Love, not scorn or murmurings (gossip).

Concerning church, DO NOT let people condemn you for any reason especially for missing church or not going to bible study. You are not saved by going to church or attending church bible study or by saying a prayer or by any sort of works. The current religious church mindset is just that though, it's religion, it's man made traditions made to look pious and holy but all it does is bind you into a system of religion. It's no good. I personally believe it's part of Mystery Babylon but I'm sure some would disagree. Christianity is not a religion, it is a restored relationship with the Father through Jesus.

However, when you are abiding in Christ you'll want to do the things of the Spirit because abiding in Christ IS walking by the Spirit. You'll want to fellowship, you'll want to study the bible, you'll want to give to ministries, you'll want to help those in need, you'll want to do the things that Christ did and you'll have a Godly joy in doing hose things.

If you're having trouble in these things and don't know what to do to get started I'll tell you how: Pray! Prayer is so powerful whether you're 'feeling' it or not, God is listening. Have others pray for you, I'll pray for you bro. And to those who say God doesn't hear the prayer of the unrighteous then I would say that Jesus our advocate to the Father does because how else was I saved as a sinner but by calling out and confessing Him not knowing any better? Maybe I'm wrong in that aspect of things but God is everywhere knowing everything, how does He not know what we say or ask or what's in our heart?

Where's your heart? It sounds like Gods working in you to help you through your struggle. Why else would you be so concerned about this? You are an amazing person and God does love you and is always there. You're worth everything He has already done for you, which was the most humbling thing God could have done, becoming man and dying a death He was not deserving of just to save us from death beacause he absolutely loves us that much! He loves YOU that much!

 

[St_Worm2]

Does your minister believe Paul wrote.concerning non believers in gal3:23-25 or in relation to those who had been under the old covenant?

I've just explained that Stuart They all teach what Galatians 3:23-25 clearly teaches, that any who are OUTSIDE of Christ are 1) non-believers AND (as such) are 2) under the OC, which teaches salvation on the basis of our works (and that if they remain outside of Christ, that they will die and be condemned eternally because of their works).

So the answer to your question above is "yes", the entire church (not just my senior pastor) teaches that non-believers ARE those who are under the "old covenant" (because the old covenant is a covenant of works righteousness, not of grace).

I realize that this teaching stands in direct opposition to a belief in universal salvation, but that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, since both the Bible and the church teach that "universal salvation" is heresy.

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[stuart lawrence]

I've just explained that Stuart They all teach what Galatians 3:23-25 clearly teaches, that any who are OUTSIDE of Christ are 1) non-believers AND (as such) are 2) under the OC, which teaches salvation on the basis of our works (and that if they remain outside of Christ, that they will die and be condemned eternally because of their works).

So the answer to your question above is "yes", the entire church (not just my senior pastor) teaches that non-believers ARE those who are under the "old covenant" (because the old covenant is a covenant of works righteousness, not of grace).

I realize that this teaching stands in direct opposition to a belief in universal salvation, but that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, since both the Bible and the church teach that "universal salvation" is heresy.

Yours in Christ,
David

So if i understand your response( as you did not simplyand directly answer the question) your minister believes Paul was referring to non believers in gal3:23-25 not those who had been under the old covenant.

That is very interesting

 

[JesusForAll]

Not belittling the conversation but concerning the posts from Stuart Lawrence and St_Worm2, maybe you guys should start a new thread with your discussion.

I'm not sure it's acutely relevant to this guys concerns he has about his salvation. He is a believer with some doubts and he needs to know what God has done for him. Some edification for a believer in need.

 

[St_Worm2]

The infamous verse of John 3:16 says ...that whosever believeth shall not perish but have eternal life... Beleiveth is a present participle and if reread concerning this it would read : ...whosoever believing shall not perish... it's a state of currently believing. I really don't like the once saved always saved mantra that some churches put out its deceiving and I always struggled with it concerning scripture and never got a good answer when I would ask my pastor or deacons. No blame on them but it was church doctrine and I believed it for a time.

Hi JFA, it looks like you are pretty new here, so first off, WELCOME TO CF ..

As for John 3:16, you're right, "believeith" is in the present tense, which signifies something that is a "present" AND ongoing possession of one who has come to saving faith in Christ.

This may be helpful as well (as the Lord goes to great lengths here to get His meaning across to us):

John 5
24 “He who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life"​

IOW, someone who has come into the possession of saving faith and "believes" "has" (present tense) ETERNAL (not "probationary") life, at that very moment in time The Lord then goes on to say that those who have come into possession of this kind of "life", will not be judged or condemned, because they have ALREADY (perfect tense) passed from death to life (the perfect tense speaking of an action that has already been completed).

As for the perseverance of the saints (which is accomplished by God), which concerns any who have truly come to "know" God/have become true believers, what do you do with the passages teaching that we have been given "eternal" life (e.g. as was just seen above), and/or with those passages that teach that of all who are "drawn" and come to Christ, that NONE will be lost .. John 6:37-40 (or of the promise made to us by our Savior that we, His sheep, those He has given "eternal life" to, will never perish .. John 10:27-28)?

John 6
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 10
26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.​

Just to be clear, I realize that there are passages and verses that seem to teach that our salvation can be lost. Those MUST be reconciled with passages like the ones I've posited here however, IOW, this is NOT (nor can it ever be) a competition between whose Bible verses are "better"

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - the thing about the OSAS, that people often seem to forget, is that to be "always saved", you have to be really and truly "once saved" first Salvation by faith is far more than an intellectual ascent/belief in God (because the demons all do that much (and more) .. James 2:19, they also "shudder", but they are certainly not saved)!

"He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him,
since He always lives to make intercession for them"
Hebrews 7:25​

.

 

[St_Worm2]

Not belittling the conversation but concerning the posts from Stuart Lawrence and St_Worm2, maybe you guys should start a new thread with your discussion.

I'm not sure it's acutely relevant to this guys concerns he has about his salvation. He is a believer with some doubts and he needs to know what God has done for him. Some edification for a believer in need.

I think we both probably realized this after a time, and talked of stopping, but on we went anyway I am hoping that at least something in the middle of all that was said above was useful to our thread's author.

In the end, I believe our discussion boiled down to the question of a universal salvation, which I think Stuart believes in, but I do not (it just took awhile to get to the point of understanding that, that, was what it was all about ).

So to Zimmer, I apologize if all of this has been of little use to you, and I promise to take it to a different thread, like JesusForALL suggests, if our discussion is going to continue in the same vein.

Yours and His,
David

 

[St_Worm2]

So if i understand your response( as you did not simplyand directly answer the question) your minister believes Paul was referring to non believers in gal3:23-25 not those who had been under the old covenant.

That is very interesting

I've already answered this for you, and quite directly in fact, but you must not have understood what I was saying, or you are choosing not to (see the first paragraph in post #45 above). I will not answer it again here however, so if you want to discuss this subject further, please PM me, or start a different thread.

Thanks!
p.s. - if you wish to discuss the basis for and/or merits of a "universal salvation", that can only be done on the Controversial Theology board. Please let me know if you start a thread about it over there as I'd like to drop by. Thanks!

 

[Nick714]

in the beginning i wasn't sure of my own salvation but now every time i ask i feel a reassurance in my heart. the best formula i can think of to get this reassurance is to have more of God and less of you. seek him out and deny yourself so the grips of sin will being loosened. practice patience, humility, love and faith. You will do great! God loves you and wants to guide you back. dont let your thoughts carry you away. push through them and allow God to reorganize your mind and heart. the answers that your looking for are not as important as losing God, but if you keep praying and knocking he will reveal more too you.

 

[Saint Nod]

Hi Zimmer,
I think if we are all honest we all struggle at times and yes even doubt God's existence... funny though that we don't doubt the existence of satan - especially when we see all the sin and evil in the world!
Sometimes, our battle of belief is a battle with satan... and has to be dealt with.
There is a very helpful free book online called "whom resist " by a guy called, I think, Peremon.
Try downloading it... the principles contained in it have helped me many times....
There are times when I have stood up to satan, quoting Galatians 2:20. "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
I have used this promise many many times, and quoted it back to satan just as Jesus did in Luke 4 ( except Jesus used different verses!)
We will always be in a battle with satan, and doubting is a part of that.... but don't be discouraged.... Jesus has already won the battle... all we have to do is stay on His side.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I've already answered this for you, and quite directly in fact, but you must not have understood what I was saying, or you are choosing not to (see the first paragraph in post #45 above). I will not answer it again here however, so if you want to discuss this subject further, please PM me, or start a different thread.

Thanks!
p.s. - if you wish to discuss the basis for and/or merits of a "universal salvation", that can only be done on the Controversial Theology board. Please let me know if you start a thread about it over there as I'd like to drop by. Thanks!

You have such muddle and confusion. You could not even answer the simple question put, but had to go all round the houses seeking not to properly answer it. Along with the fact, from your previous posts you must believe you could have a conscience at your sin without having conviction of your sin. That is impossible.
Total confusion by you of this subject. I shall not pursue if further with you, nothing to be gained. I will leave you to try and convince others you are not totally confused here.
Goodnight

 

[JesusForAll]

As for the (infamous ) verse, John 3:16, you're right, "believeith" is in the present tense, which signifies something that is a "present" AND ongoing possession of one who has come to saving faith in Christ.

Yeah I see I did write "infamous", I meant famous and changed it. I don't want to be implying Gods word is evil.

 

[St_Worm2]

OK, I removed it from my reply to you as well then

 

[The Brown Brink]

I've never really worried about my own salvation.
Jesus will take care of that just fine.

 

[Late Bloomer]

Glad to find these forums! Hope to spend alot of time here. Anyways guys lately i have really been struggling in my faith and was hoping i could get some prayers/advice - ive lost the "fire" i guess ucould say over the past year or so. I cant seem to sit and get into God's word like i need to. Ive skipped church quite often lately as well. I stopped going to a weekly bible study about a year ago because it wasnt helping me in my faith,wasnt answering my questions,and im just not much of a people person like i used to be. Ive had some struggles with anger. Sometimes when really angry ill say the Lord's name in vain in the worst wAy. Ive found myself even questioning the bible as why are there so many books removed and "hidden",etc. is the bible true and how do i know 100%. I was saved when i was 9 yrs old but not sure if it was sincere. Over the years ive broken down and asked Christ to come into my heart and change me. I feel changed for the better in some ways. But some ways i feel worse. This past sunday at church even my pastor said during the sermon that once youre saved u never feel the same again. I want to get back in the word and grow and KNOW im just tired of not knowing if i am and feeling like i can never know. Not sure if any of u have gone thro anything like this but if anyone has any advice id sure appreciate it! Thank u!

 

[Late Bloomer]

Glad to find these forums! Hope to spend alot of time here. Anyways guys lately i have really been struggling in my faith and was hoping i could get some prayers/advice - ive lost the "fire" i guess ucould say over the past year or so. I cant seem to sit and get into God's word like i need to. Ive skipped church quite often lately as well. I stopped going to a weekly bible study about a year ago because it wasnt helping me in my faith,wasnt answering my questions,and im just not much of a people person like i used to be. Ive had some struggles with anger. Sometimes when really angry ill say the Lord's name in vain in the worst wAy. Ive found myself even questioning the bible as why are there so many books removed and "hidden",etc. is the bible true and how do i know 100%. I was saved when i was 9 yrs old but not sure if it was sincere. Over the years ive broken down and asked Christ to come into my heart and change me. I feel changed for the better in some ways. But some ways i feel worse. This past sunday at church even my pastor said during the sermon that once youre saved u never feel the same again. I want to get back in the word and grow and KNOW im just tired of not knowing if i am and feeling like i can never know. Not sure if any of u have gone thro anything like this but if anyone has any advice id sure appreciate it! Thank u!

I went through a very similar stage too early in my Christian life. But looking back, it was just some sort of rebellious spiritual teenage phase and was just part of my spiritual stages of growth. Don't worry, if you have really accepted Jesus, He will not let you be snatched from His hand (John 10:28). And it's okay to question things in the Bible. I asked a lot of questions too. That's normal. I suggest you watch videos of Dr. Chuck Missler on youtube. He's a Bible expert whom God has used to answer a lot of my own questions and has helped strengthen my faith.
God bless!

 

[brinny]

Glad to find these forums! Hope to spend alot of time here. Anyways guys lately i have really been struggling in my faith and was hoping i could get some prayers/advice - ive lost the "fire" i guess ucould say over the past year or so. I cant seem to sit and get into God's word like i need to. Ive skipped church quite often lately as well. I stopped going to a weekly bible study about a year ago because it wasnt helping me in my faith,wasnt answering my questions,and im just not much of a people person like i used to be. Ive had some struggles with anger. Sometimes when really angry ill say the Lord's name in vain in the worst wAy. Ive found myself even questioning the bible as why are there so many books removed and "hidden",etc. is the bible true and how do i know 100%. I was saved when i was 9 yrs old but not sure if it was sincere. Over the years ive broken down and asked Christ to come into my heart and change me. I feel changed for the better in some ways. But some ways i feel worse. This past sunday at church even my pastor said during the sermon that once youre saved u never feel the same again. I want to get back in the word and grow and KNOW im just tired of not knowing if i am and feeling like i can never know. Not sure if any of u have gone thro anything like this but if anyone has any advice id sure appreciate it! Thank u!

Bless yer heart brother, praying for you. (((hug)))

 

[knowimsaved]

Glad to find these forums! Hope to spend alot of time here. Anyways guys lately i have really been struggling in my faith and was hoping i could get some prayers/advice - ive lost the "fire" i guess ucould say over the past year or so. I cant seem to sit and get into God's word like i need to. Ive skipped church quite often lately as well. I stopped going to a weekly bible study about a year ago because it wasnt helping me in my faith,wasnt answering my questions,and im just not much of a people person like i used to be. Ive had some struggles with anger. Sometimes when really angry ill say the Lord's name in vain in the worst wAy. Ive found myself even questioning the bible as why are there so many books removed and "hidden",etc. is the bible true and how do i know 100%. I was saved when i was 9 yrs old but not sure if it was sincere. Over the years ive broken down and asked Christ to come into my heart and change me. I feel changed for the better in some ways. But some ways i feel worse. This past sunday at church even my pastor said during the sermon that once youre saved u never feel the same again. I want to get back in the word and grow and KNOW im just tired of not knowing if i am and feeling like i can never know. Not sure if any of u have gone thro anything like this but if anyone has any advice id sure appreciate it! Thank u!

I highly recommend you read the book Knowing I’m Saved:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1983249580