Doubting Believer

[TillICollapse]

Interesting, I didn't know that.

I only knew the normal scientific laws didn't apply for the first 10^-40 of a second (roughly) after the big bang. So no cause and effect for the creationists lol.

The Planck era, IOW.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

The Planck era, IOW.

Thanks!

 

[revrobor]

Putting the meaningless veiled threats to one side, you are still confronted with part b) - if you posit an exception to your 'rule' for your God, then there is no logical barrier to other exceptions being permitted.

By the way - "establish"? If your God has always been, hasn't his "kingdom" always existed? Why would it require establishing?

Establish His Kingdom on the New Earth. Yes His Kingdom has always existed but not on this or the New Earth. Read Rev 20,21.

 

[revrobor]

No one knows that.

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What you mean is you refuse to believe that. Every child of God knows that.

 

[SteveB28]

Establish His Kingdom on the New Earth. Yes His Kingdom has always existed but not on this or the New Earth. Read Rev 20,21.

Oh, what was he "king" of before please? 'Forever' is an awfully long time. Please don't tell us that, before this planet existed, he was just twiddling his fingers for eternity?

And you still have to answer that question - if you are demanding that your God be treated as an exception, why could not this universe also be granted one?

 

[ThinkForYourself]

What you mean is you refuse to believe that. Every child of God knows that.

I assume you think I'm a child of God.

Please trust me when I tell you I do not know that.

 

[BucksWordBearer]

Oh, what was he "king" of before please? 'Forever' is an awfully long time. Please don't tell us that, before this planet existed, he was just twiddling his fingers for eternity?

And you still have to answer that question - if you are demanding that your God be treated as an exception, why could not this universe also be granted one?

The type of forever his talking about has no beginning or end it's continuous therefore it has no measurable distance as to qualify is as "long". It isn't comprehensible from beings like I and you.

My message to you revrobor is to stay away from this unfruitful discussion as Atheists have no comprehension of the timeless existence of God (Even we as Theists have nowhere near full understanding of it) and of course they're confused and therefore ask a lot of questions because they're merely looking through their naturalist eye piece.

Also I fail to understand why anything of this is related to ethics or morality doesn't this type of discussion belong in the philosophy section?

 

[SteveB28]

The type of forever his talking about has no beginning or end it's continuous

Well, yes, that's how I understand "forever". How does this answer my question? What was your God "king" of before this planet came along?

therefore it has no measurable distance as to qualify is as "long". It isn't comprehensible from beings like I and you.

Why are you using terms that you find incomprehensible? Does that seem like a sensible epistemology to you?

My message to you revrobor is to stay away from this unfruitful discussion as Atheists have no comprehension of the timeless existence of God (Even we as Theists have nowhere near full understanding of it) and of course they're confused and therefore ask a lot of questions because they're merely looking through their naturalist eye piece.

What is the harm in questioning our understandings of various concepts? Isn't this how we learn? Clear up our "confusion" and answer our questions.

 

[BucksWordBearer]

Well, yes, that's how I understand "forever". How does this answer my question? What was your God "king" of before this planet came along?



Why are you using terms that you find incomprehensible? Does that seem like a sensible epistemology to you?



What is the harm in questioning our understandings of various concepts? Isn't this how we learn? Clear up our "confusion" and answer our questions.

I'll be blunt with you I didn't reply to you because I wanted to answer your question I simply wanted to correct your use of the word "long" and recommend that revrobor cease this particular discussion with you. I also questioned why this discussion was being held in an ethics and morality thread but I will answer your question so you may rest easy.

Your question was already indirectly answered when revrobor referred you to Revelation 20-21. If you had read this you would have known that the kingdom before earth existed was Heaven.

About you questing my epistemology all I really have to say about that is if you're referring to 'perfect understanding' then your options are rather limited as we TRULY know close to nothing as humans, admitting incomprehensibility is a good stepping stone into what you can really know not the opposite.

Also I do believe this discussion is harmful as it leads to no positive outcome for the both of us. You do not have the core axiomatic truths and core assumptions to understand.

 

[SteveB28]

I'll be blunt with you I didn't reply to you because I wanted to answer your question I simply wanted to correct your use of the word "long" and recommend that revrobor cease this particular discussion with you. I also questioned why this discussion was being held in an ethics and morality thread but I will answer your question so you may rest easy.

Your question was already indirectly answered when revrobor referred you to Revelation 20-21. If you had read this you would have known that the kingdom before earth existed was Heaven.

If that's your reply, then you haven't answered my question. Over whom or what was your God "king" before the earth and humans came along? Who was he ruling over 'forever'?

About you questing my epistemology all I really have to say about that is if you're referring to 'perfect understanding' then your options are rather limited as we TRULY know close to nothing as humans, admitting incomprehensibility is a good stepping stone into what you can really know not the opposite.

That's a rather novel approach to learning and knowledge. You know all because you understand nothing?

Also I do believe this discussion is harmful as it leads to no positive outcome for the both of us. You do not have the core axiomatic truths and core assumptions to understand.

No discussions that improve understanding are harmful.

 

[dlamberth]

What you mean is you refuse to believe that. Every child of God knows that.

No, they don't. Some may "believe" it on faith. But they don't "know" it. They weren't there.

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[BL2KTN]

Hopped in here for a moment, see a teenager Christian recommending to a senior thinker that we employ thought processes from the dark ages. Questions are bad I tell you! Asking questions might reveal the man behind the curtain.

 

[BucksWordBearer]

If that's your reply, then you haven't answered my question. Over whom or what was your God "king" before the earth and humans came along? Who was he ruling over 'forever'?



That's a rather novel approach to learning and knowledge. You know all because you understand nothing?



No discussions that improve understanding are harmful.

This will be my last reply to you. I said it before I'll say it again God was/is king of heaven. Heaven wasn't created.

Oh please, where did I say I "know all" and epistemology isn't some game of who can know the most but What we can know.

What if I told you that from the beginning of this conservation till now you haven't learn a single thing.

 

[revrobor]

Oh, what was he "king" of before please? 'Forever' is an awfully long time. Please don't tell us that, before this planet existed, he was just twiddling his fingers for eternity?

And you still have to answer that question - if you are demanding that your God be treated as an exception, why could not this universe also be granted one?

I've answered the question a couple of times and won't debate it any further as the purpose Satan has given you is to tear down Christians. We don't know what God was doing before the creation so I can't speak to that.

 

[revrobor]

I assume you think I'm a child of God.

Please trust me when I tell you I do not know that.

You are His creation but until you come to Jesus you are not His child.

 

[revrobor]

No, they don't. Some may "believe" it on faith. But they don't "know" it. They weren't there.

.

I don't know what your "other faith" is but for the Christian what we have accepted by faith is a fact.

 

[TomZzyzx]

First, how do you know something cannot come from nothing? Please give proof if you have it. Maybe "nothing" is unstable, and if nothing exists, something has to come from it.

Second, the universe is eternal, just like your god. There was no time before the big bang.

Then the big bang, then according to science shortly after the universe was created, the normal scientific laws came into effect.

EDIT: Please see post #160. Mathematicians have proven the universe could have come from nothing.

Reading scientific papers and watching lectures on cosmology on youtube. They are very interesting.

First, something from nothing without a creator has never been observed in the history of mankind. "Nothing" which is "no thing" is not something that can exist let alone something come from it. It's not even logically sound.

Second, you say the universe is eternal and it was started with a big bang. Wow, is this really what you believe? The universe can not be eternal and have had a beginning. You can't have it both ways.

Third, show me your proof that normal scientific laws came into effect shortly after the universe was created.

And forth, mathematicians stating that the universe "could" have come from nothing is not proof. At best it is someone's hypothesis.

 

[TomZzyzx]

First, how do you know something cannot come from nothing? Please give proof if you have it. Maybe "nothing" is unstable, and if nothing exists, something has to come from it.

Second, the universe is eternal, just like your god. There was no time before the big bang.

Then the big bang, then according to science shortly after the universe was created, the normal scientific laws came into effect.

EDIT: Please see post #160. Mathematicians have proven the universe could have come from nothing.

Reading scientific papers and watching lectures on cosmology on youtube. They are very interesting.

After considering you statements again something came to light, if you believe that the universe came to be out of nothing and without normal scientific laws then the only explanation is that a supernatural act had to have happened.

And to think, Christians have been claiming for thousands of years that the universe was created by a supernatural act.

 

[SteveB28]

This will be my last reply to you. I said it before I'll say it again God was/is king of heaven. Heaven wasn't created.

I see. So, there are now two things that are granted an exception from the "everything must have a cause" rule - God has always existed and now heaven has always existed too. This rule seems to be allowing an increasing number of exceptions.

Very well. Who lived in 'heaven' for the eternity before humans started inhabiting it please?

By the way, try to formulate this concept in your mind - if God and heaven have existed for an eternal period stretching back into the past, how did they ever get to 'now'?

What if I told you that from the beginning of this conservation till now you haven't learn a single thing.

But sir, why do you think I'm asking so many questions?

 

[SteveB28]

I've answered the question a couple of times and won't debate it any further

No, I'm sorry. What you have done is to dance around that question. You've not addressed it.

as the purpose Satan has given you is to tear down Christians.

That's a very easy 'out' sir. Whenever the questions become too difficult, just blame it on Satan?

We don't know what God was doing before the creation so I can't speak to that.

Seems to me that 'forever' is a considerably long period of time to be doing nothing?