Don't tell ME it isn't a deviancy! . . . Catholics only, please.

[CaDan]

Teshi:

You turn that rep button back on RIGHT NOW!

 

[Miss Shelby]

All I'm saying is that in trying so damn hard to keep kids away from sinners (at least the sinners we see as worse than all the rest of us sinners) we're sinning ourselves by the harm we do...all those people in prison we're supposed to be visiting, all those hungry we're supposed to be feeding, all those sick we're supposed to be tending, because in doing so we're loving Jesus Christ himself, those are the kids in the social service trap. To me these gay couples who want to adopt, they're our modern Samaritians, the distrusted neighbors of the Jewish people...they're doing what's right by these children, putting the cloak over the beaten ones and caring for their wounds, while we sit back in our righteous judgement of them for who they are...and we will pay for it, I have no doubt.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are plenty of homsexuals out there that would make better parents than I am, that are probably better people than I am. Righteous judgement is a strong charge, especially since I am just trying to listen to what the Church says. And I don't see any easy answers.

 

[Teshi]

There is no doubt in my mind that there are plenty of homsexuals out there that would make better parents than I am, that are probably better people than I am. Righteous judgement is a strong charge, especially since I am just trying to listen to what the Church says. And I don't see any easy answers.

To tell you the truth, I do see an easy answer. When people asked Jesus what they were supposed to be doing he said consistently love God, love one another, take care of other people. He didn't say withhold that care until you're a worthy caretaker, he didn't say withold that care until the recipient behaves the way you want them to, he said feed them, clothe them, visit them, tend them. We feed them, clothe them, visit them, tend them NOW and we can worry about the details later. Treating this like it's an academic question, like it's theological mathematics to be worked out with proofs and decrees, to me, is absurd while the abuses in the foster care/group home system that went on when I was a kid is still going on today. It's not academic, there are kids languishing...

 

[ps139]

Leaving kids in the system waiting to be adopted is doing violence to them.

Assuming 'the system' is inherently disordered.

Anyway, I gave no opinion about 'the system,' I stated the Catholic position on allowing homosexual partners to adopt children.

 

[ps139]

To tell you the truth, I do see an easy answer. When people asked Jesus what they were supposed to be doing he said consistently love God, love one another, take care of other people. He didn't say withhold that care until you're a worthy caretaker, he didn't say withold that care until the recipient behaves the way you want them to, he said feed them, clothe them, visit them, tend them. We feed them, clothe them, visit them, tend them NOW and we can worry about the details later. Treating this like it's an academic question, like it's theological mathematics to be worked out with proofs and decrees, to me, is absurd while the abuses in the foster care/group home system that went on when I was a kid is still going on today. It's not academic, there are kids languishing...

Teshi, you are assuming that the "developmental/psychological violence" done to children in homosexual households is less than physical violence done to some (not all) in foster care. You have no basis for this assumption as the situation is apples and oranges. How can harm to the soul and harm to the body be compared? And even if one situation could be proven to be worse than the other, it does not make the other good.

Jesus also told people to repent and sin no more. He condemned sin. He called for repentance. This is too often ignored in arguments such as yours. Allowing these children to be adopted by homosexual partners places them in a home where they are told that a serious sin is no sin at all. That is very dangerous for the soul.

 

[Miss Shelby]

To tell you the truth, I do see an easy answer. When people asked Jesus what they were supposed to be doing he said consistently love God, love one another, take care of other people. He didn't say withhold that care until you're a worthy caretaker, he didn't say withold that care until the recipient behaves the way you want them to, he said feed them, clothe them, visit them, tend them. We feed them, clothe them, visit them, tend them NOW and we can worry about the details later. Treating this like it's an academic question, like it's theological mathematics to be worked out with proofs and decrees, to me, is absurd while the abuses in the foster care/group home system that went on when I was a kid is still going on today. It's not academic, there are kids languishing...

I'm looking at it from both sides, the kids needing the care, and the people who don't realize that they're lifestyles can put their souls in jeopardy. They need care, too. The thing is, I have been told that my sin is wrong by the Church. (my theoretical sin)-- I know that my sin is wrong. I know I cannot go have an affair on my husband or desire another man and not answer for that to God in some form. Through repentance or damnation. My sin is ugly, it's filthy and Catholics know that is wrong. (just using adultery as an example)

I am seeing very little being said that practcing homosexuals are also in much need of help.

Michelle

 

[Teshi]

Teshi, you are assuming that the "developmental/psychological violence" done to children in homosexual households is less than physical violence done to some (not all) in foster care. You have no basis for this assumption as the situation is apples and oranges. And even if one situation could be proven to be worse than the other, it does not make the other good.

Jesus also told people to repent and sin no more. He condemned sin. He called for repentance. This is too often ignored in arguments such as yours. Allowing these children to be adopted by homosexual partners places them in a home where they are told that a serious sin is no sin at all. That is very dangerous for the soul.

As opposed, of course, to the lesser danger to the soul that lies in being molested and beaten and neglected and told, time and time again, by action and by words, that no one in this country thinks you're worth a damn thing? I'm sorry, but I'd have taken the "normalizing" of gay parenthood over the normalizing of continued abuse and neglect any day of the week. In an ideal world we could place every kid in an ideal home but we don't live in an ideal world, we live in a fallen world and we need to cope with that. And now I'm unsubscribing from this thread, because it is too stressful to watch people discuss this stuff like it's something that isn't happening RIGHT NOW, like kids aren't still being shattered RIGHT NOW, while we, myself included, whine about it on a message board. I'm going to go do something helpful to others instead of continuing this stupid discussion, because I just can't stand this noise.

 

[D'Ann]

This thread and comments are heart breaking.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Teshi, you are assuming that the "developmental/psychological violence" done to children in homosexual households is less than physical violence done to some (not all) in foster care. You have no basis for this assumption as the situation is apples and oranges. How can harm to the soul and harm to the body be compared? And even if one situation could be proven to be worse than the other, it does not make the other good.

Jesus also told people to repent and sin no more. He condemned sin. He called for repentance. This is too often ignored in arguments such as yours. Allowing these children to be adopted by homosexual partners places them in a home where they are told that a serious sin is no sin at all. That is very dangerous for the soul.

Why is homosexuality the only serious sin people care about when considering where to place children?

 

[scraparcs]

I'm looking at it from both sides, the kids needing the care, and the people who don't realize that they're lifestyles can put their souls in jeopardy. They need care, too. The thing is, I have been told that my sin is wrong by the Church. (my theoretical sin)-- I know that my sin is wrong. I know I cannot go have an affair on my husband or desire another man and not answer for that to God in some form. Through repentance or damnation. My sin is ugly, it's filthy and Catholics know that is wrong. (just using adultery as an example)

I am seeing very little being said that practcing homosexuals are also in much need of help.

Michelle

What kind of help is there for practicing homosexuals? Those ex-gay programs don't work very well, and you really can't help someone who doesn't believe they have a problem.

 

[Irenaeus]

Guys,

As lamentable as the foster care system can be, let us not forget that simply allowing homosexual couples to adopt children on the basis that they may make "better parents than some heterosexuals I know" is not only wrong from a Christian moral point of view, but it's a logical red herring.

There has been such a collapse in the family over the past fourty years, that we all need to some serious soul searching and make sure we are raising kids to be faithful, temperate, and courageous.

These three virtues can be applicable to all, pagan and Christian. I can assure that a good portion of children in foster care would simply not be there if ordinary people like you and I did not give up on one another in a loving relationship...i.e., marriage.

The breakdown of marriage has led to the breakdown of Western civilization. This same breakdown of marriage has led to an asexualization of our culture. This same asexualization has been used as a dogmatic and cultural tool for those who (knowingly or not) want to carve a new humanity...maybe not the "superman" anticipated by Nietzsche, but a man radically "free" (as the world considers freedom) from all perceived or actual moral constraints. Man no longer wants to obey his nature. In the end, the words of the Savior will ring true: He who sins is a slave of sin.

If St. Augustine said the City of Man consists of those who love self to the contempt of God, then he is proved again by these who love themselves so much, that they will annihilate themselves to remake the human race anew. "Ye shall be like gods," the Devil lied, "knowing good and evil." What the Devil knew, however, was that under the auspice of some good, he could tempt man into doing anything...even forfeiting his knowledge of objective good and evil by repeated wrong doing.

We as Christians, especially Catholic Christians, should never be encouraging a relationship that is based upon a violation of natural law and then promoting it on a simply utilitarian basis, as some of you are doing here...I am appalled by such a suggestion.

We may not do evil that "good" may come of it...the roots are rotten, and this tree will not grow!

 

[Miss Shelby]

What kind of help is there for practicing homosexuals? Those ex-gay programs don't work very well, and you really can't help someone who doesn't believe they have a problem.

I know. That's the crux. They have to be aware of it to do anything about it. That's why this is so dang hard. How do we help make them aware? I don't know.

Michelle

 

[Debi1967]

Rom 1:24 Wherefore, God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness: to dishonour their own bodies among themselves.
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause, God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature.
Rom 1:27 And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts, one towards another: men with men, working that which is filthy and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error.
Rom 1:28 And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient.
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness: full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity: whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Foolish, dissolute: without affection, without fidelity, without mercy.
Rom 1:32 Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death: and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that unjust ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous ones, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor plunderers shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

You want to truly contend with something then contend with this, that the Church made the decision to stop adoptions by Catholic Charities, because of the Scriptural reasons. Because it is OUR Faith and Doctrines that dictate that Homosexuality is what is descibed in the Bible.

This is not a matter of what you feel is right or wrong but a matter of putting control into God's hands and remembering that God knows better than we do in such things.

We do not willingly put a child at risk of this. Not that they would be gay, because that is not the issue here, but that they would not be able to recieve the proper and adequate training to see that the pursuit of the parents is unbiblical and therefore because that against natural law and God.

Our responsibility lies with the child always, it is not prudent or safe for the child to place the child in harm's way of being able to see God in the accurate light we should be advocating always. Therefore the Church's stance is based upon Doctrine that has been affirmed over and over again ....

The same Doctrine, that some of you may personally disagree with, but at the same time are obligated to.... AS CATHOLICS!

The Church has done nothing wrong here except institute our Doctrines. It is a shame, that because of this however they must now remove themselves altogether from adoptions. That is where your anger should be.

For a country that says we have the right to exercise the freedom of religion they have taken that away from Catholic Charities by saying that if they will not adopt out to, Gay couples, then they cannot also adopt out to anyone else either .... because it is the law... they are trying to force their hand ...

 

[WarriorAngel]

Teshi, you are assuming that the "developmental/psychological violence" done to children in homosexual households is less than physical violence done to some (not all) in foster care. You have no basis for this assumption as the situation is apples and oranges. How can harm to the soul and harm to the body be compared? And even if one situation could be proven to be worse than the other, it does not make the other good.

Jesus also told people to repent and sin no more. He condemned sin. He called for repentance. This is too often ignored in arguments such as yours. Allowing these children to be adopted by homosexual partners places them in a home where they are told that a serious sin is no sin at all. That is very dangerous for the soul.

IF I could give you 100 rep points I would.

That was what I was trying to say....

Our future children will no longer see the sin as it is...and the future society will lose sight of what sin is in this instance {AND many more because sin will beget sin}, and soon the majority will applaud these acts.

 

[scraparcs]

Why is homosexuality the only serious sin people care about when considering where to place children?

Well, those sins that I commit (unlike homosexual acts) aren't really sins. Greed? Not a sin. Gluttony? No, not sinful at all. Gossip? That's no sin.

But I can condemn homosexual acts all I want to because I've never had strong temptations to commit that sin.

(Note: above statement made firmly tongue-in-cheek by a greedy, gossipy glutton.)

 

[Miss Shelby]

Guys,

As lamentable as the foster care system can be, let us not forget that simply allowing homosexual couples to adopt children on the basis that they may make "better parents than some heterosexuals I know" is not only wrong from a Christian moral point of view, but it's a logical red herring.

There has been such a collapse in the family over the past fourty years, that we all need to some serious soul searching and make sure we are raising kids to be faithful, temperate, and courageous.

These three virtues can be applicable to all, pagan and Christian. I can assure that a good portion of children in foster care would simply not be there if ordinary people like you and I did not give up on one another in a loving relationship...i.e., marriage.

The breakdown of marriage has led to the breakdown of Western civilization. This same breakdown of marriage has led to an asexualization of our culture. This same asexualization has been used as a dogmatic and cultural tool for those who (knowingly or not) want to carve a new humanity...maybe not the "superman" anticipated by Nietzsche, but a man radically "free" (as the world considers freedom) from all perceived or actual moral constraints. Man no longer wants to obey his nature. In the end, the words of the Savior will ring true: He who sins is a slave of sin.

If St. Augustine said the City of Man consists of those who love self to the contempt of God, then he is proved again by these who love themselves so much, that they will annihilate themselves to remake the human race anew. "Ye shall be like gods," the Devil lied, "knowing good and evil." What the Devil knew, however, was that under the auspice of some good, he could tempt man into doing anything...even forfeiting his knowledge of objective good and evil by repeated wrong doing.

We as Christians, especially Catholic Christians, should never be encouraging a relationship that is based upon a violation of natural law and then promoting it on a simply utilitarian basis, as some of you are doing here...I am appalled by such a suggestion.

We may not do evil that "good" may come of it...the roots are rotten, and this tree will not grow!

I STILL want to be like you when I grow up.

Michelle

 

[D'Ann]

Why is homosexuality the only serious sin people care about when considering where to place children?

Good question. It is not the only serious sin that people care about when considering where to place a child. But when an organization is Catholic Charities and homosexuality is considered a mortal sin by Catholic Dogma, then for us, it is one of many serious sins to acknowledge and comprehend.

Homosexuality is a mortal sin against Catholic Dogma, just like adultery is and lying, cheating, stealing...

If a couple has a gambling problem and/or has an acholicism addiction and/or drug addiction/problem, as a Catholic adoption agency, in fair conscious, they could not allow this couple to adopt a child. The couple would first need to confess, repent and amend their lives. The problem with people who participate in the sin of homosexuality, is that they do not realize or comprehend, nor probably care, that they are in sin and need to confess, repent and amend their lives and so out of faithfulness to Catholic Dogma, Catholic Charities cannot allow homosexual couples to adopt.

I realize that this seems harsh and hurtful and I'm sorry and sadden for the pain and suffering that some have gone through due to the "system". I'm not sure what the answer is, but I do know that babies need love and a stable home with a mom and dad. Even in a separated/divorced home, a child still will have a mom and dad. In an same sex home, they truly only have either two moms or two dads. This is how I view it.

 

[scraparcs]

I know. That's the crux. They have to be aware of it to do anything about it. That's why this is so dang hard. How do we help make them aware? I don't know.

Michelle

About the same way we make people aware of gossip and lying and gluttony and greed and all those things?

 

[WarriorAngel]

As opposed, of course, to the lesser danger to the soul that lies in being molested and beaten and neglected and told, time and time again, by action and by words, that no one in this country thinks you're worth a damn thing? I'm sorry, but I'd have taken the "normalizing" of gay parenthood over the normalizing of continued abuse and neglect any day of the week. In an ideal world we could place every kid in an ideal home but we don't live in an ideal world, we live in a fallen world and we need to cope with that. And now I'm unsubscribing from this thread, because it is too stressful to watch people discuss this stuff like it's something that isn't happening RIGHT NOW, like kids aren't still being shattered RIGHT NOW, while we, myself included, whine about it on a message board. I'm going to go do something helpful to others instead of continuing this stupid discussion, because I just can't stand this noise.

I dont know about your state hon, but in mine, you need classes, background checks, abuse checks, police checks, and basically the foster system where I live at now keeps a very close eye on the 'child' who is in a foster home.

ALSO, a child is no longer allowed in the system longer than 18 months, with the foster families given the option to adopt first. or family members. AND the child must agree with that adoption if they like them or not. {Which is gr8 news}

SO as disgusting as this was for you...and believe me it is disgusting...it not the norm now.

Foster care systems where I live are very careful and extremely cautious and the child is questioned about how they are treated in the home.

And perhaps outcries from folks like you, the system needed an overhaul desperately.

I am sorry beyond words about this treatment, and offer you HUGE hugs if I could personally give them I would.

Altho, now we have cleaned up the foster care...we should look forward to keeping it clean for all aspects of the child.
Both to remove physical harm and spiritual.

Peace to you.

 

[Miss Shelby]

About the same way we make people aware of gossip and lying and gluttony and greed and all those things?

well, that's what I am trying to do, however pathetically, and I'm being accused of being righteously judgemental. This may come as a huge shock to some people, but I really do WANT people to like me. I don't like being viewed as a witch. ( I really don't)

Michelle