Don't all roads led to heaven?

[Zaac]

Well, to be honest, it wasn't by reading the Bible.

No, my knowledge of Jesus, and His crucifixion, arrives out of cultural osmosis and the school syllabus.

Now don't take this the wrong way. But do you and others who say the exact same thing realize just how crazy that sounds? You don't trust the word of a HOLY God as inspired men of Him have written down. But you trust what other sinful men and scholars say?

That's called idolatry in its simplest form.

And, one other source. The doctors seem to think I was psychotic (read, insane) at the time, but the fact is, I really know what it is like to have your life demanded of you in exchange for 'saving the world'. I survived, but only because Jesus didn't, had gone before, and already paid the price so I wouldn't have to. I am not quite sure what mysticism is, or the difference between that and madness, but I do know that experience changed my outlook profoundly.

But that doesn't mean I am bound to accept everything He (allegedly) said without question.

No one said to not question. That's part of growing in relationship with Christ. But if folks have had the faith to accept Him as Savior, somewhere along the way they had to trust what His word says.

So I ask again, if you have depended on cultural osmosis and schooling for your knowledge of Jesus, where do you think the culture and schools got their information?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To 2ndRateMind,
I agree with Zaac, where did the schools get their information?
Let me ask you, does the school syllabus have Jesus Christ the risen Son of God like the Bible or something different? Perhaps just a prophet like the Quran?
Also could I ask you what other beliefs have you acquired by cultural osmosis?

 

[Zaac]

To 2ndRateMind,
I agree with Zaac, where did the schools get their information?
Let me ask you, does the school syllabus have Jesus Christ the risen Son of God like the Bible or something different? Perhaps just a prophet like the Quran?
Also could I ask you what other beliefs have you acquired by cultural osmosis?

I, too, am interested in hearing these answers.

Because I am left shaking my head at how people will talk about Jesus but not many want to acknowledge what Jesus says about Jesus in His inspired word. Who knows more about God than God?

 

[2ndRateMind]

Now don't take this the wrong way.

Don't worry, I won't!

But do you and others who say the exact same thing realize just how crazy that sounds? You don't trust the word of a HOLY God as inspired men of Him have written down. But you trust what other sinful men and scholars say?.

Relax Zaac, I don't trust anybody. Not with the end of my immortal soul; that is my responsibility, my concern, my burden, and my quest. You seem to think that sinful men and sinful scholars comprise the whole of cultural osmosis, but I meant a far more profound influence than that. British culture is steeped in Christianity, from it's system of laws, it's institutions, charities and traditions, it's assumptions of virtue, it's educational goals, it's myriad allegiences and disapprovals. It's largely transparent though; we take it for granted as just, essentially, decent. Non-Christians tend not even to notice the influence.

Beyond that, to be sure sinful men and sinful scholars pronounce on the gospels, in the media, in books and newspapers, on the radio and TV, just as holy men and holy scholars do. I listen to them all, and assess them all on the basis of the quality of their arguments, and not the quality of their souls, which I can only guess at. A sinful man can speak the truth, a holy man may be mistaken. And, anyway, are you so sure that sinful men and sinful scholars have had no part in authoring, transcribing, translating, and compiling the Bible? I see no reason to assume that sinful men and sinful scholars were less prevalent in the past than they are now.

That's called idolatry in its simplest form.

Or (heretical suggestion) could it be that the elevation of the scriptures to a status beyond criticism might be seen as idolatrous? Are we worshippers of God, or of an artifact?

No one said to not question. That's part of growing in relationship with Christ. But if folks have had the faith to accept Him as Savior, somewhere along the way they had to trust what His word says.

Of course I accept Him as my saviour. That's what makes me Christian. That doesn't excuse me the responsibilty of thinking this meaning of life thing through for myself, guided by Him, but not determined by Him, given His historical context, and mine.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To 2ndRateMind,

That doesn't make me incapable of thinking this meaning of life thing through for myself, guided by Him, but not determined by Him, given His historical context, and mine.

His historical context is that He is the Son of God and spoke the words of the Father God, which means you are trying to determine what God has said as to whether its true or not. To me that suggests to know the meaning of life that Jesus says we cant fully understand, God needs to come to you to find out.
Sorry but I can see from the NT that Jesus NT teaching doesnt allow us to decide whether what He pronouced as truth is truth, He says it is and faith is trusting it.
But in fact had you considered that Jesus NT teaching is to seek to follow all He taught (Matthew 28, John 14 etc) so how can you be sure that if one decides what to follow of Jesus commands, Jesus will consider one a disciple?

 

[Zaac]

Don't worry, I won't!



Relax Zaac, I don't trust anybody. Not with the end of my immortal soul; that is my responsibility, my concern, my burden, and my quest. You seem to think that sinful men and sinful scholars comprise the whole of cultural osmosis, but I meant a far more profound influence than that. British culture is steeped in Christianity, from it's system of laws, it's traditions, it's assumptions of virtue, it's educational goals, it's myriad allegiences and disapprovals. It's largely transparent though; we take it for granted as just, essentially, decent. Non-Christians tend not even to notice the influence.

So is American culture even though we continue to go toward that which is unBiblical. But where do you think these people got their ideas about Christ and His way from?

Beyond that, to be sure sinful men and sinful scholars pronounce on the gospels, in the media, in books and newspapers, on the radio and TV, just as holy men and holy scholars do. I listen to them all, and assess them all on the basis of the quality of their arguments, and not the quality of their souls, which I can only guess at.

So YOU are your standard for what is the word of God and what is not?

A sinful man can speak the truth, a holy man may be mistaken. And, anyway, are you so sure that sinful men and sinful scholars have had no part in authoring, transcribing, translating, and compiling the Bible? I see no reason to assume that sinful men and sinful scholars were less prevalent in the past than they are now.

Of course they did for ALL have sinned. Some very sinful men wrote down God's inspired word. That doesn't make it any less inspired.

Or (heretical suggestion) could it be that the elevation of the scriptures to a status beyond criticism might be seen as idolatrous? Are we worshippers of God, or of an artifact?

You can criticize it all you want. The rest of the world does. But at some point, faith has to doctate that the God Whom you trusted to save you knows better than you or the rest of the world.

Of course I accept Him as my saviour. That's what makes me Christian. That doesn't excuse me the responsibilty of thinking this meaning of life thing through for myself, guided by Him, but not determined by Him, given His historical context, and mine.

I didn't ask about the meaning of life. I want to know how it is that the folks you have gotten your knowledge of Jesus from have come to know about Him if not from God's word?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To 2ndRateMind,
Yes you seem to have declined to address the questions.

I didn't ask about the meaning of life. I want to know how it is that the folks you have gotten your knowledge of Jesus from have come to know about Him if not from God's word?

This is the question. According to Jesus NT teaching He is the way the truth and the life and no-one comes to the Father except through Him, so if He is the truth then one cant determine to the contrary without it contrary to the truth. To me thats the opposite of Christian views. One cant have faith in someone as the truth by deciding they dont speak the truth.

 

[Zaac]

To 2ndRateMind,
Yes you seem to have declined to address the questions.
This is the question. According to Jesus NT teaching He is the way the truth and the life and no-one comes to the Father except through Him, so if He is the truth then one cant determine to the contrary without it contrary to the truth. To me thats the opposite of Christian views. One cant have faith in someone as the truth by deciding they dont speak the truth.

Precisely. So how exactly is it that someone comes to Christ or professes faith in Christ while at the same time rejecting the given truth of the same Christ?

How can you place your faith in Christ while at the same time rejecting what Christ has to say?

 

[AngelusSax]

Precisely. So how exactly is it that someone comes to Christ or professes faith in Christ while at the same time rejecting the given truth of the same Christ?

How can you place your faith in Christ while at the same time rejecting what Christ has to say?

Perhaps a more pointed question, rather than how it is possible to do that, is this:
Is it even possible at all?

 

[2ndRateMind]

Hmmm, I suspect the old 'you don't believe the exact same things I do, so you're not a Christian' gambit is rearing it's misbegotten, xenophobic, narrow-minded head.

Well, you're not partial to the reasoning I have presented. I understand that; it's a different way of thinking. But do you have any substantive, rational criticisms of the arguments I have presented? Or are we just down to prejudice - 'that's not what the Bible says, so it must be wrong, but I can't actually give any reasons as to why it's wrong'?

Best wishes, 2RM

 

[brightmorningstar]

To 2ndRateMind,

Hmmm, I suspect the old 'you don't believe the exact same things I do, so you're not a Christian' gambit is rearing it's misbegotten, xenophobic, narrow-minded head.

Not as far as I can see, all we are discussing is the views, you arent actually suggesting those of us who hold the views we do, arent Christians are you? Its seems you are implying it.

Well, you're not partial to the reasoning I have presented. I understand that; it's a different way of thinking.

Well it certainly doesnt make any logical sense for the very reasons in the question we have been asking which is how do you know your thinking is in line with God's, without being able to test against the Biblical testimony.

But do you have any substantive, rational criticisms of the arguments I have presented? Or are we just down to prejudice - 'that's not what the Bible says, so it must be wrong, but I can't actually give any reasons as to why it's wrong'?

How do you suppose what you are proposing can't be prejudiced against God's Biblical testimony when it is often contrary?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To 2ndRateMind,
It might be worth considering that Muslims have faith in Jesus as a prophet but they dont have faith in Jesus Christ the risen Son of God, they have faith that He isnt the risen Son of God (ie Surah 9:30) So do they actually have faith in the same person? I suggest not. So having faith in Jesus Christ according to the Biblical testimony is completley different to having faith in Jesus (Isa) according to the Quranic testimony of Mohammed. Similarly that can happen with any variation from the Biblical testimony. The Jesus Christ I know and have a relationship is the one whose testimony is in the Bible.

 

[2ndRateMind]

So YOU are your standard for what is the word of God and what is not?

Indeed. I commend the attitude to you; it involves a high-wire act with damnation either side. That makes for a degree of adrenaline-high, without which Christianity essentially boils down to following someone else's rules.

Best, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Not as far as I can see, all we are discussing is the views, you arent actually suggesting those of us who hold the views we do, arent Christians are you? Its seems you are implying it.

That was the last thing I meant to imply. I was being defensive, not aggressive.

Best, 2RM

 

[2ndRateMind]

Well it certainly doesnt make any logical sense for the very reasons in the question we have been asking which is how do you know your thinking is in line with God's, without being able to test against the Biblical testimony.

We all have a moral sense, the ability to distinguish between good and evil, right and wrong, and such. The reason I distrust the Bible is that I find plenty in it to offend my moral sense. The choice is clear, and I am happy with mine. It is the only way I can live with my conscience - with my understanding of the phrase: God's 'still small voice of calm'.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To 2ndRateMind,

Indeed. I commend the attitude to you; it involves a high-wire act with damnation either side. That makes for a degree of adrenaline-high, without which Christianity essentially boils down to following someone else's rules.

The problem is…

So YOU are your standard for what is the word of God and what is not?are your standard for what is the word of God and what is not?

So are you the standard for all Christians, if not, and some of them are their own standard, who is to say what the standard is?

That was the last thing I meant to imply. I was being defensive, not aggressive.

No problem, there is no offense going to be taken anyway, but if you were being defensive you must have felt that about your views.

We all have a moral sense, the ability to distinguish between good and evil, right and wrong, and such.

No, I am sure we don’t, obviously otherwise there wouldn’t even need to be any differences in interpretation. Nor did I say or mean morals and good and evil only, what about who God is and who Jesus is?

The reason I distrust the Bible is that I find plenty in it to offend my moral sense.

hence what you have just said about all having a sense of what are morals and right and wrong isn’t true then. But the question was how do you know your thinking is in line with God's, without being able to test against the Biblical testimony. Now I understand that you trust your feelings rather than what the Bible says, but it doesn’t address the question as to whether it is in line with God’s purpose, unless you are god or the only one able to know what God’s purposes are.

The choice is clear, and I am happy with mine. It is the only way I can live with my conscience - with my understanding of the phrase: God's 'still small voice of calm'.

Well again that’s according to your believing that bit which the Bible says.

 

[Zaac]

Hmmm, I suspect the old 'you don't believe the exact same things I do, so you're not a Christian' gambit is rearing it's misbegotten, xenophobic, narrow-minded head.

Well, you're not partial to the reasoning I have presented. I understand that; it's a different way of thinking. But do you have any substantive, rational criticisms of the arguments I have presented? Or are we just down to prejudice - 'that's not what the Bible says, so it must be wrong, but I can't actually give any reasons as to why it's wrong'?

Best wishes, 2RM

For Christians, the fact that God says so should be enough of a reason.

Now I must say, why profess faith in Jesus Christ if you're gonna construct another Jesus Christ that is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible?

And why does everyone keep trying to reinvent the wheel? Are yall looking for a pat on the shoulder because you came up with a new angle? It really isn't new.

2RM,Do you witness to people in fulfilling the Great Commission?

 

[2ndRateMind]

For Christians, the fact that God says so should be enough of a reason.

Only if you think that the Bible, is indeed, what God says. And that is part of what is being challenged. And the advantage of finding reasons to support scriptural prescriptions is that you stand a reasonable chance of being able to communicate effectively with people who simply cannot accept Christian pre-suppositions.

Now I must say, why profess faith in Jesus Christ if you're gonna construct another Jesus Christ that is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible?

As above.

2RM,Do you witness to people in fulfilling the Great Commission?

By 'Great Commission', I assume you mean trying to convert everyone to Christianity. Well, to be honest, I am relaxed about that. I don't think their eternal fate depends on it. I do think, however, that it depends on their moral stature, and I am a lot less relaxed about that. So, I take part in discussions designed to empasise the importance of morality in decision making, and to allow people to reach (their own) moral conclusions and implement them, that being the way moral stature is achieved.

But, I suspect, you probably wouldn't think that counts.

Best, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

To 2ndRateMind,

The problem is…
So are you the standard for all Christians, if not, and some of them are their own standard, who is to say what the standard is?

No, this is quite wrong. I am not the standard for all Christians. Objective Ideals, such as the Good, the Right, the True, the Beautiful, the Just, and the Kind are the standard. It is in these things, at their apex, where they meet, that I know God is to be found, because that is where I found Him. Meanwhile, we all have different ideas about how these Ideals may be implemented on Earth, and, in the Great Democratic Debate, many points of view are expressed. That's good, because these ideas can be compared and tested against each other, and, sooner or later, the best of them will prevail.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

We all have a moral sense, the ability to distinguish between good and evil, right and wrong, and such.

No, I am sure we don’t, obviously otherwise there wouldn’t even need to be any differences in interpretation.

We do have a moral sense. It's just that some people's are more accurate than others, by virtue of their spiritual status, and some people's are rather confused, because their culture and society militates against them developing it, by thinking rationally for themselves and not accepting any text - be it Bible, Quran, Bhagavad Gita, Mein Kampf or the Thoughts of Chairman Mao - as the last word on ethics and morality.

Best, 2RM.