Don't all roads led to heaven?

[catzrfluffy]

Maybe, He might preach to those who die without the gospel,

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built...." (1 Peter 3:18-20)

But that's sort of speculation, I don't know.

All our righteous acts are as filthy rags before Him (Isaiah 64:6). It's only by the cross of Christ anyone is justified, that's what salvation depends on, "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.'" (Acts 4:12). Yes, there is only one way, but anyone is welcome: "Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life." (Revelation 22:17)

 

[ittarter]

lol guys, what you have here is a troll.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Well Zaac, it seems we have plenty to discuss, because we clearly have very different ideas on what it means to be a Christian. But, let us concentrate on the topic at hand; the criteria for salvation.

Premise 1. God is Good.
Conclusion 1. God must therefore be Just, since justice is good.
Conclusion 2. Salvation must therefore be a just process.

Observation 1. People tend to follow the religion of their parents, and their surrounding culture.
Conclusion 3. People's religion is generally decided by accident of birth.

Conclusion 4. Salvation cannot be by the Christian religion alone, since this would mean salvation is decided by accident of birth, and therefore unjust, and this would contradict conclusion 2.

There is plenty more to say, but I will restrict myself to these bare bones of an argument for the moment, and allow you to comment.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Criada]

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.

The Bible says that it is God's will that all should be saved.
It also says that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all.
So.. maybe all are saved through him, whether they consciously choose him or not.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To 2ndRateMind,

Well Zaac, it seems we have plenty to discuss, because we clearly have very different ideas on what it means to be a Christian.

Well the first posts define Christ as the truth and the way and the life, according to the Bible testimony of Christ, and Christians as the ones who know Christ is the truth the way and the life.
It was your post #6 which said

Should a 'good' Buddhist be denied the just reward a 'bad' Christian unjustly receives?

This is at odds with Christ’s NT teaching even apart from not knowing what your criteria for good and bad are. Christ’s NT teaching shows we are saved by faith in Him and faith produces good fruit. So the first question is can a Christian who has faith in Christ which saves them, actually be 'bad' as faith leads to good works? The other problem is Christ says without Him no fruit that lasts can be produced, so what are you supposing are the good works of the Buddist?
Secondly, as Christ says no-one comes to the Father except through Him, and that He is the way the truth and the life, how would Buddism fit in? Now that doesn’t mean that a Buddhist might not have a revelation of who Christ is or even get a chance to hear the gospel, but being a Buddhist is not relevant as Buddism doesn’t accept Jesus Christ as the risen Son of God.

Premise 1. God is Good.

Conclusion 1. God must therefore be Just, since justice is good.
Conclusion 2. Salvation must therefore be a just process.

God is good according to who God is and what God does. God is just because He is.

Observation 1. People tend to follow the religion of their parents, and their surrounding culture.

Conclusion 3. People's religion is generally decided by accident of birth.

But salvation is through Jesus Christ and not religion. Also Jesus was a Jew on earth.

Conclusion 4. Salvation cannot be by the Christian religion alone, since this would mean salvation is decided by accident of birth, and therefore unjust, and this would contradict conclusion 2.

That’s according to you, it isnt what Jesus Christ taught. Salvation, for gentiles for sure, isn’t decided by birth or religion, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

The bit missing from your argument is the recognition of Jesus Christ being the one who saves.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To criada,

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.

The Bible says that it is God's will that all should be saved.
It also says that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all.
So.. maybe all are saved through him, whether they consciously choose him or not.

It also says a number of times that not all will be saved. Either one reconciles the apparent contradiction or chooses which bits of the Bible to believe.
Christ died for sins once for all and the righteous and unrighteous to bring you to God doesn’t mean that all will be brought.
That God does not want anyone to perish but to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) in itself implies that some might perish and not everyone will come to repentance. Otherwise if it is certain God wouldn’t need to want it.
Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient for all, but Christ taught that some wont accept it. So all cant be saved if they consciously choose not to accept Christ.

 

[2ndRateMind]

lol guys, what you have here is a troll.

I do hope that remark wasn't aimed at me. When I post, I post sincerely, not just to provoke debate. The fact that I happen to disagree with many conventional Christian ideas should not be dismissed as mere trolling; if these conventional Christian ideas are, in fact, true, they should be able to withstand the criticisms of my poor 2ndRateMind; if they aren't, and can't, then the sooner we all know that the better.

Salvation depends on it.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Hey, brightmorningstar

Here is where I stand on John 14:6, copied from earlier in the thread, in case you missed it.

Jesus did indeed say 'I am the way, the truth and the life'. John 14:6 But this is a cryptic phrase, capable of many different interpretations. It is very definately a 'grey area'. I choose to interpret it to mean that He was recommending that we live like He did, in love with God, His world, and the people in it. I reject the less plausible interpretation that has come to be conventional, that goes along the lines of 'unless you believe what the Church says about me, that I am the son aspect of a triune God, born of the virgin Mary, etc., you will go to Hell.'

As for good and bad, we all have a pretty good notion of what they are. Buddhist notions of morality are a little different to Christian ones, to be sure, but there is plenty of overlap. If you care to research Buddhist ethics, I am sure you will find plenty to agree with.

Finally, is faith in Jesus Christ significantly different to faith in the Christian religion? You seem to think it is, and I am interested to find out what the distinction you make is all about.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[joy2daworld]

There is one major difference between Christianity and any other religion:

Christianity is THE ONLY religion in which GOD does for US! In all other religions, humans must earn their own salvation in some way. Christians know that they can not earn salvation. It is a GIFT of GOD not of WORKS so that NO ONE can boast.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To 2ndRateMind,

It is very definately a 'grey area'. I choose to interpret it to mean that He was recommending that we live like He did, in love with God, His world, and the people in it.

‘Cryptic’ implies a hidden meaning yet you haven’t offered anything the text doesn’t say.
I don’t doubt that ‘no-one comes to the Father except through Jesus’ is at least a recommendation, but Jesus says He is the way the truth and the life, one could only claim that He isn’t the only way if the text said ‘a’ truth instead of ‘the’ truth. Quite clearly from the rest of the NT there is no indication anywhere that there is any other way apart from Jesus, and plenty to show He alone is, so one cant interpret something the opposite of what it says without it being disbelief.

I reject the less plausible interpretation that has come to be conventional, that goes along the lines of 'unless you believe what the Church says about me, that I am the son aspect of a triune God, born of the virgin Mary, etc., you will go to Hell.'

We are discussing what the scriptures say and not what the church says about you.

As for good and bad, we all have a pretty good notion of what they are.

So although we disagree you are saying we don’t? I know we disagree because I can see what you have previously written.

Buddhist notions of morality are a little different to Christian ones, to be sure, but there is plenty of overlap. If you want to research Buddhist ethics, I am sure you will find plenty to agree with.

If there is a little difference then they aren’t the same, and besides Jesus says without Him no good fruit can be produced that will last.

Finally, is faith in Jesus Christ significantly different to faith in the Christian religion? You seem to think it is, and I am interested to find out what the distinction you make is all about.

That’s my question to you for you seem to think it is. All I have been doing is referring to the Biblical record. The first time those who believed were called Christians was at Antioch, so there is no faith in the ‘christian religion’ but Christianity is faith in Christ.

 

[2ndRateMind]

There is one major difference between Christianity and any other religion:

Christianity is THE ONLY religion in which GOD does for US! In all other religions, humans must earn their own salvation in some way.

Indeed, I think there is a certain amount of truth to this. If we ask, sincerely, from the heart, for Jesus to help us, then the Holy Spirit invades us. And our whole attitude changes. But this is not necessarily the whole of salvation, I think, just the start of our walk in Christ's footsteps. Christians get an advantage, earned out of their humility.

That is not the same thing as no-one but Christians getting saved. That is an assumption too far, unwarranted by the facts of the matter.

Best wishes, 2RM

 

[brightmorningstar]

To 2ndRateMind,
Originally Posted by joy2daworld
There is one major difference between Christianity and any other religion:

Christianity is THE ONLY religion in which GOD does for US! In all other religions, humans must earn their own salvation in some way.

Indeed, I think there is a certain amount of truth to this.

Again that means you don’t agree. If Christianity is the only religion in which God does for us it is true, if Christianity isn’t then it isn’t true. Do you know of any other religions where God does for us to save us, rather than earning one’s own salvation? I don’t.

If we ask, sincerely, from the heart, for Jesus to help us, then the Holy Spirit invades us. And our whole attitude changes. But this is not necessarily the whole of salvation, I think, just the start of our walk in Christ's footsteps.

I would agree.

Christians get an advantage, earned out of their humility.

But this bears no direct relevance to the text we were discussing. I would say one can’t be a Christian unless one has become humble to accept Jesus Christ, but there is no indication of it being earned by humility, God first chose us.

That is not the same thing as no-one but Christians getting saved. That is a leap of assumption too far, unwarranted by the facts of the matter.

But that’s not what the scripture records Jesus as saying nor is that the same scripture we are discussing. Jesus said He is the truth, the way and the life and no-one comes to Father except through Him, I assume those that have faith in Christ could be called Christians, again you seem to be implying otherwise.

 

[joy2daworld]

2ndRateMind,

It IS the whole of salvation. The thief on the cross next Jesus was promised a place in heaven simply because he believed. He certainly did not walk with Christ. He was in his last hours of his life. Those who walk with Jesus witness to the world for Him but it is not "part of the salvation process". It is a fruit of faith. It comes after salvation, not as part of the saving process.

I'm sorry that you disagree with my point of view, but I have no doubt in my mind that the Bible is in whole God's truth given to us to live by. It is not a recommendation, or a suggestion. It is the Law and Gospel by which we are to live. It contains the plan of salvation, beginning in Genesis, coming to completion on the cross, ending when Christ returns again for the faithful, those who are faithful to Christ, thus called Christians. Not Buddhists, or Muslems, or Hinduist, or any other faith because those all put their faith in a god that expects them to do something to earn salvation. My God does not. He comes to me and says believe and be baptized and you will go to heaven.

 

[2ndRateMind]

We are discussing what the scriptures say and not what the church says about you.

This, then, is the meat of our disagreement; you are discussing what the scriptures say, and I am arguing from first principles. Yet, if (our interpretation of) the scriptures is true, it should coincide with reason, don't you think?

If it doesn't, then of course we have a choice, between scripture and reason, and I would unashamedly go for reason, every time. And that, I think, is what divides us.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To 2ndRateMind,

This, then, is the meat of our disagreement; you are discussing what the scriptures say, and I am arguing from first principles. Yet, if the scriptures are true, they should coincide with reason, don't you think?
If they don't, then of course we have a choice, between scripture and reason, and I would unashamedly go for reason, every time. And that, I think, is what divides us.

You asked the question about faith in Christ, what did you think you meant by Christ, if not the one whose testimony is in the scriptures, and what do you mean by faith if faith is reasoning when most people understand it as trusting in something.

You see according to the Jesus Christ's Biblical testimony, Christ being the only way, that all roads do not lead to heaven, on the contrary only one does.

 

[AngelusSax]

Should a 'good' Buddhist be denied the just reward a 'bad' Christian unjustly receives?

If "justly" were something for us humans to decide, then this argument would be a better one. As it is, God decides justice, and every single person who has ever lived or ever will live (who is not also God incarnate, i.e. Jesus), falls short. One inch or ten thousand miles short, makes no difference. Short is short, and only God's sacrifice on the cross in Jesus bridges the gap and brings us to life eternal.

Now, I do not claim to know the workings of anyone's heart all the way through their last breath. I do not claim to know, for certain, whether God reveals Himself through Christ in different ways to those who live their lives as Hindus or Muslim or whatever, even unto that last breath. It is possible that there are a great many "deathbed conversions" that have and will have happened by the time time ends. However, as a Christian, I believe Jesus is THE way, THE truth, and THE life. Perhaps some people believe in Him without really knowing it, though I can't claim either way to know.

All I know is, if someone goes all the way through their last breath and still does not believe, then there is no assurance of salvation.

 

[2ndRateMind]

deleted

 

[2ndRateMind]

If "justly" were something for us humans to decide, then this argument would be a better one. As it is, God decides justice, and every single person who has ever lived or ever will live (who is not also God incarnate, i.e. Jesus), falls short. One inch or ten thousand miles short, makes no difference. Short is short, and only God's sacrifice on the cross in Jesus bridges the gap and brings us to life eternal.

Ah, AngelusSax, but 'justly' is something humans decide. True, God made justice first, but He chose to endow us with the ability to perceive it, to value it, even to crave it. Our 'justice' is not different from God's 'justice', or if it was, the term God's justice would have no meaning. To say that God is just, but His justice is not like our justice, would be like saying God is red, but His red is not like our red. No useful information is conveyed.

So, I insist that the person who has fallen short by an inch is more worthy than the person who has fallen short by a mile, and it does make a difference. Jesus' role is to help each one of us make the short gap smaller, not to render all distinctions of short irrelevant.

And if someone who believes a different religion than we do has greater moral merit than we do, then this justice thing ensures that that will be properly recognised.

Best wishes, 2RM

 

[AngelusSax]

Ah, AngelusSax, but 'justly' is something humans decide. True, God made justice first, but He chose to endow us with the ability to perceive it, to value it, even to crave it. Our 'justice' is not different from God's 'justice', or if it was, the term God's justice would have no meaning. To say that God is just, but His justice is not like our justice, would be like saying God is red, but His red is not like our red.

Except that our perceptions are flawed because we are flawed. We can perceive justice and crave justice, and most of the time we may be either spot-on or really close, but when it comes to who is saved and who is not, the eternal workins of the Great Eternal, we need to let God be God, and not try to make our assumptions be God's justice, for our flaws never trump God's perfection.

Edit to add:
Personally, I WANT the universalists to be right, but I am far from sure that they are. But just because I want everyone to go to heaven, regardless of belief or anything else, doesn't mean it will be so.

 

[Zaac]

Ah, AngelusSax, but 'justly' is something humans decide. True, God made justice first, but He chose to endow us with the ability to perceive it, to value it, even to crave it. Our 'justice' is not different from God's 'justice', or if it was, the term God's justice would have no meaning. To say that God is just, but His justice is not like our justice, would be like saying God is red, but His red is not like our red.

Again, so Biblically untrue. Our minds are not like God's. our thoughts are not like God's. God can righteously hate. Can you hate without sinning first? God can righteously get angry. Can you do that everytime without sin entering the picture first.

There is indeed a difference between God's justice and man's otherwise the lady caught in adultery would have been stoned to death.

So, I insist that the person who has fallen short by an inch is more worthy than the person who has fallen short by a mile, and it does make a difference. Jesus' role is to help each one of us make the short gap smaller, not to render all distinctions of short irrelevant.

Like our feelings, our insistance is irrelevant. NONE are worthy. Every last one of us deserves hell. Jesus doesn't make the gap smaller. He does away with the gap.

And if someone who believes a different religion than we do has greater moral merit than we do, then this justice thing ensures that that will be properly recognised.

Just ain't Biblical. You can do all the moral deeds in the world and still go to hell because you have not accepted JESUS as Lord and Savior.

Why on earth did you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior if you feel like you can adhere to anything and anyone and just be moral and the justice of God will save you?

You STILL have not dealt with the issue of SIN.