DOL cannot include the Tribulation

[chalkstc]

SF,

You failed to prove your future events they can only be 'possibilities' of a completely new desolation of what already is desolated. So then call me a pea in a pod.
Its a pod of truth you cannot disprove.

No, you failed to see that the whole 12th chapter is about the time of the end. Read it in it's entirety, but leave those 70 AD glasses off.........

Bro Frankie

 

[LovedofHim]

SF,



No, you failed to see that the whole 12th chapter is about the time of the end. Read it in it's entirety, but leave those 70 AD glasses off.........

Bro Frankie

NO, Daniel 10-12 is ONE story. An angel comes to Daniel and tells him what is written in heaven in the "Book of Truth". The angel gives highlights of a 3500 year time period from the Medes to the GWT judgment at the end of the millennium. Then the angel answers Daniel's questions about what the angel told him.

 

[son_flower]

SF,



No, you failed to see that the whole 12th chapter is about the time of the end. Read it in it's entirety, but leave those 70 AD glasses off.........

Bro Frankie

LOL the whole chapter? r u sure?

Its Daniel 12
not Daniel 2012

 

[chalkstc]

LOL the whole chapter? r u sure?

Its Daniel 12
not Daniel 2012

Please explain the use of 1260 days / 42 months / time, times and half a time in the Rev. When are they in regards to us, past or future?

Now explain the same time frames minus the 42 mo increment from Dan. Are they the same point in time as to fulfillment, or are Dan's strictly for 70 AD? If Dan's are for 70AD only, show me documented history for what happened 1260 days post 70 AD.

Thx,
Frankie
PS u can believe Joe who didn't believe, or believe the scriptures.

Trick question: Were the times of the Gentiles fulfilled in 70 AD?

 

[LovedofHim]

Please explain the use of 1260 days / 42 months / time, times and half a time in the Rev. When are they in regards to us, past or future?

Everything from the moment when the martyrs of the last 2000 years are asking to be avenged at the time of the 5th seal, onward in Revelation is still future.

Now explain the same time frames minus the 42 mo increment from Dan. Are they the same point in time as to fulfillment, or are Dan's strictly for 70 AD? If Dan's are for 70AD only, show me documented history for what happened 1260 days post 70 AD.

The 7th seal alone is just over 42 months in length. Jesus' ministry was 42 months. The desolation of Israel took 42 months.

Trick question: Were the times of the Gentiles fulfilled in 70 AD?

The "times of the Gentiles" referred to in Luke 21 is the 2000 years since Christ's ascension.

Luke gets it from Daniel 12 when the angel said "these wonders" from the Medes to the GWT judgment is time, times, half a time. (3500 years) The time is the millennium. (1000 years) Times is the "times of the gentiles" when the believing gentiles enter into the Israel of God. (2000 years) And the half a time is from the Medes to Christ. (500 years)

 

[chalkstc]

Lizzy,

The "times of the Gentiles" referred to in Luke 21 is the 2000 years since Christ's ascension.

Oh, contraire again......................

The Times of the Gentiles refers to all the nations that have an impact on Israel till the end................


Egypt
Assyria
Babylon
Medes and Persians
Greeks
Romans
And the final "beast empire"

Count them!

Dan begins with Babylon, because it was in his own day, counting forward. But Jesus begins with the first..........Egypt, the first house of bondage for God's people.

Frankie

 

[POSTIOS]

THE DAY OF THE LORD[/size]
Cannot Include the Tribulation

Following are nine biblical reasons why the Day of the Lord cannot include the tribulation, as pre‑tribbers claim, but must follow it.

1. Joel 2:31/Acts 2:20 and Matthew 24:29/Mark 13:24 place the same cosmic signs between the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The two cannot overlap, otherwise these verses could not be true.

2. In Isaiah two, the very first time the Day of the Lord is mentioned in the Bible, Isaiah wrote that the Lord alone will be exalted in that day. This is an exclusive statement. Since, during the last half of the tribulation, the Antichrist will be worshipped as God, the two cannot overlap [cf. Isaiah 2:11,12,17 & Rev. 13:12].

The Antichrist cannot be worshipped in the Day of the Lord, since Isaiah says the Lord ALONE will be exalted. Also, all idols will be abolished during the Day of the Lord. Yet, during the tribulation, the image of the Beast, and other idols will be worshipped. [cf. Isaiah 2:18 & Rev. 9:20,21 & Rev. 13:15].

3. Zechariah 14:7 indicates that the Day of the Lord is a 24 hour day. The Hebrew text says: "that day shall be one." [See also: Isa. 10:17]
..................................
Personally, I disagree and believe that the Day of the Lord is a 1000 year period, beginning after Armagedon of course.
..............................
4. Three times the phrase "the Day of the LORD cometh" is used in the Old Testament. [Isaiah 13:9, Joel 2:1, Zech. 14:1]. In each case the text immediately begins to describe the battle of Armageddon. The word "cometh" is the Hebrew word "bow" [Strong's #935], a verb meaning to come or arrive. It implies the beginning of the Day of the Lord. In all three cases, the arrival of the Day of the Lord brings the battle of Armageddon.

In the New Testament, twice it is said the Day of the Lord "cometh" as a theif in the night (1 Thess. 5:1,2 & 2 Peter 3:10). In both cases the immediate destruction of the wicked occurs. Paul says "sudden destruction" overtakes the wicked, and Peter says the land will be devoured by fire along with the scoffers.

5. Joel 3:9‑17 describes the gathering of the armies of the nations around Jerusalem for the battle of Armageddon, the cosmic signs, and the coming of the Lord. After the armies are gathered, but before the cosmic signs, Joel wrote that the Day of the Lord is "near."

The Hebrew word means "at hand," "imminent," or "next in sequence" [Strong's #7138]. The Day of the Lord must begin after the armies of the nations are gathered for the battle, which occurs at the end of the tribulation, according to Rev. 16:13‑16.

6. According to Revelation 16, The armies of the nations are gathered at the end of the tribulation for "the battle of the great day of God Almighty. Therefore, the "Day of God" is clearly after the tribulation when the battle occurs. Peter shows us that the terms "Day of God" and "Day of the Lord" are synonymous, by using them interchangably when repeating himself [2 Peter 3:10,12]. (This is the only other occurrence of the phrase "Day of God" in the Bible.) Jesus also says His Coming is a thief in Rev 16:15 just before Armageddon.

7. 2 Thessalonians 2:1‑3 NASB/NIV says the "Day of the Christ" (same as the Day of the Lord) will not come until after the "falling away," (apostasy) and the revelation of the "man of sin." Verse 4 indicates how he will be revealed, by defiling the Temple at the mid‑point of the tribulation, [see: Matt. 24:15]. Therefore, the Day of the Lord cannot begin before the mid‑point of the tribulation.

..............................

I disagee, as I believe that 2Thes2 teacehs that the son of Perdition is revealed at the Lord's Coming.
The world believe the son of Perdition to be God, right up till Jesus Christ's true return. Only the elect (144000) understand who the son of Perdition is, until Christ reveals him to the world, by direct comparisson, by the brightness of His Coming.

The son of Perditions revealing as after the entire trib, after they are gathered to armageddon, right at Jesus Christ's return. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
..............................

8. According to Mal. 4:5, Elijah the prophet will come before the Day of the Lord comes. Most agree that Elijah is one of the two witnesses in Revelation. Therefore, the Day of the Lord cannot begin until after the two witnesses come.

9 There are many synonyms for the "Day of the Lord" in the New Testament. We know that on the Day of the Lord, the "Lord" who comes in power "with all His saints" in Zech. 14:1‑6 is Jesus Christ [cf. Zech. 14:1‑6, Acts 1:9‑12, 1 Thess. 3:13].

We also know that there are various combinations of Jesus' name in the New Testament, including; Jesus, Christ, Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus, Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, and Lord. Since the simplest explaination is almost always correct, it is very likely that all of the following phrases are speaking of the same day.

Day of Christ [Phil. 1:10], Day of Jesus Christ [Phil. 1:6], Day of the Lord Jesus Christ [1 Cor. 1:8], Day of the Lord Jesus [1 Cor. 5:5], Day of the Lord [1 Thess. 5:2], Day of God [2 Pet. 3:12], Day of God Almighty [Rev. 16:14]. [See also referrences to "the Great Day:" Zeph. 1:14, Jude 1:6, Rev. 6:17, Rev. 16:14.]

Frankie
...................................

Nice post, I agree with almost all of it, and it thwarts the pre trib stand.

 

[POSTIOS]

Concerning #3, the NASB renders it as:

For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.

It couldn't possibly be a 24 hour day or it wouldn't make sense. All the things that unfold on the day couldn't possibly be within 24 hours.

Here's what I found in the cross reference and the cross references of the cross reference:

Jeremiah 30:7 'Alas! for that day is great,
There is none like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's distress,
But he will be saved from it.

..................................................

I think this is the first legitimate answer given for the tribulation being included in the day of the Lord, that I have seen.

I would point out that on the very last day of the tribulation (the gathering at armageddon) is also the same day as the beginning of the Lord's day, and the Millennium.

....................................................

Joel 2:11 The LORD utters His voice before His army;
Surely His camp is very great,
For strong is he who carries out His word
The day of the LORD is indeed great and very awesome,
And who can endure it?

...........................................................

That would be tru if the day was incusive of the tribulation or not.

..........................................................

Mark 13:19 "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.

And my opinion is that the day of the Lord will include the great Tribulation.

Mar 13 teaches "those days" plural. The labor pains leading up to the birth of the new age, marked by Christ's return.

 

[POSTIOS]

Hey look i know your hair hurts but you started it.

In Rev. 11 isn't it John who is measuring the Temple? Yes. That obviously must be some past event like you say when it was trodden underfoot.

Except if you look now there is people trodding it under foot. They built an unholy mosque there.

And what relevance does the temple have now that Jesus is the Lamb?
None. What is the point of building a new temple with an altar that is needless under the new covenant? None.

How can you desolate something that no longer has value. When WE are the temple of God.?
.................................................

I agree that a new temple is not needed in this age. And likewise that God is not going to reinstall some form of animal sacrifice for clensing sin, when Messiah has done that once and for all time.

You are correct that we are the temple of God.
That being the case, we now know where the son of Perdition "sits" and claims to be God!
And he can do that if he is in Rome, NYC or Jerusalem. It ends in Jerusalem.

If the son of Perdition is disguised as an angel of light, looks like a lamb, claims to be God, and is worshiped as God, then he will sit in those that believe this lie.

And in Revelation 14, it seems that not all believers will be able to tell. Only the 144000 are redeemed from the earth, of men.

 

[POSTIOS]

I'm always surprised when people are offended by the Word of God, especially when they learn that it doesn't say what they think it says.[/size]

.........................................................

The fact is that this forum is crawling with Christians that certainly believe their Bible. The problem seems to be with interpretation, not with the Word of God. I see most all of you posting scripture to support your various views, from preter-ism and historic-ism, to pre trib/mid trib/post tib. Unfortunately, the views do not meet. We must dilligently search ALL scripture references about the end time events to come up with a proper viewpoint and understanding. If there is one future event to come, then that disproves preterism, etc.


So, perhaps there is a better way to address the situation, than to accuse Christians of not believing in the Word of God, right?

...............................................


Michael stands up at the time of the end, just as Daniel 11, 12 and Revelation 12 (and even Joel 2) teaches you.

Abomination of desolation - 70 AD

......................................................

Out of curiosity, how does Michael standing up prove that the Abomination of Desolation occured in 70 AD ?

 

[chalkstc]

Post,

It couldn't possibly be a 24 hour day or it wouldn't make sense. All the things that unfold on the day couldn't possibly be within 24 hours.

We are raised in a "moment" a twinkling of an eye. How long is that? An "atmos" or atom of time. And note he does not say at "any moment"

The term is not unique, but "echad yom".............one day. I do agree that the DOL will continue into the Mill, but at it's beginning, we are delivered and the wicked are punished.

Jeremiah 30:7 'Alas! for that day is great,
There is none like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's distress,
But he will be saved from it.

The day to come is great. The time of Jake's trouble is the GT and Jacob will be saved out of it. That means he was in it and delivered at it's end."immediately after the trib of those days."

The beast makes war and persecutes the saints for 42 months or the last 1260. Jesus destroys him with the brightness of His Coming which is postrib.

And my opinion is that the day of the Lord will include the great Tribulation.

Opinions are great, but scripture is truth...................

Rev 16:13​

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.​

14​

​

​

​

​

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.​

15 ​

​

​

​

​

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.​

16​

​

​

​

​

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.​

​

KJV

Note the timing of Jesus coming as a thief which according to Paul in 1 tH 5 is the Coming or DOL.

Let's take little bites please. Too much to discuss in one post.

Thx,
Frankie

 

[LovedofHim]

Out of curiosity, how does Michael standing up prove that the Abomination of Desolation occured in 70 AD ?

I can't make heads or tails of your posts. Do you not understand how to quote someone? See the little "cartoon bubble" icon? Highlight the test you want to quote, then hit that button.

Michael's actions have nothing to do with 70AD. Michael stands up at the time of the end when he kicks the devil down to the earth and Israel is delivered before the time of wrath begins.

 

[POSTIOS]

Post,



We are raised in a "moment" a twinkling of an eye. How long is that? An "atmos" or atom of time. And note he does not say at "any moment"

The term is not unique, but "echad yom".............one day. I do agree that the DOL will continue into the Mill, but at it's beginning, we are delivered and the wicked are punished.



The day to come is great. The time of Jake's trouble is the GT and Jacob will be saved out of it. That means he was in it and delivered at it's end."immediately after the trib of those days."

The beast makes war and persecutes the saints for 42 months or the last 1260. Jesus destroys him with the brightness of His Coming which is postrib.



Opinions are great, but scripture is truth...................



Rev 16:13

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 ​

​

​

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 ​

​

​

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 ​

​

​

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.​

KJV​

Note the timing of Jesus coming as a thief which according to Paul in 1 tH 5 is the Coming or DOL.​

Let's take little bites please. Too much to discuss in one post.​

Thx,
Frankie​

Hi. I am not the author of that post. Perhaps my sloppy posting style is to blame.
I am learning.​

As for Jer 30:7, I notice the word AND and sometimes, especially at the beginning of a sentence, AND becomes a polysendendant meant to specifically divide or show difference.

So it is possible that the verse teaches that the great day is when Jacob is saved from his time of trouble.
And you are correct that we know Jacob is saved at the conclusion, when Messiah returns.

 

[POSTIOS]

I can't make heads or tails of your posts. Do you not understand how to quote someone? See the little "cartoon bubble" icon? Highlight the test you want to quote, then hit that button.

Michael's actions have nothing to do with 70AD. Michael stands up at the time of the end when he kicks the devil down to the earth and Israel is delivered before the time of wrath begins.

Sorry.

I wrote that basically we should be respectful and not accuse our brethren of not believing their bible. It seems to be more about interpretation and upbringing.

Thanks for the advice on posting. I tried a bunch of things, and am now getting the hang of it.

I asked about Michael, because of your last post to me.
You mentioned 70 AD and Michael standing up.

 

[chalkstc]

Hi again Post and welcome aboard,

You will find many of the pre and post persuasion here.

So it is possible that the verse teaches that the great day is when Jacob is saved from his time of trouble.
And you are correct that we know Jacob is saved at the conclusion, when Messiah returns.

It goes against many other texts that any group is removed before the GT.

You must do this..........................

Isa 28:9 ​

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.​

10 ​

​

​

​

​

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:​

​

KJV

In fact, most pretribbers believe it is the Jews who go thru and the Church removed. They say God's elect in Mat 24 are Jews and not Christians.

Of course that is a sham if you follow the term "elect" throughout the NT. also notre that the majority of texts in the OT that I quoted speaks of judgment, gloom and darkness and even one asks "you that look for the DOL.....what will the DOL be for you?" (paraphrase).

But in the NT we find tha saints delivered on the same day as the wicked are judged. This is not a pretrib scenario, for the wicked are not judged during the GT, but after it as a thief in the night, for they are not looking for it as we are. We awake, and they are asleep.

I asked about Michael, because of your last post to me.
You mentioned 70 AD and Michael standing up.

He stands up in the time of trouble.......same as GT and Jacob's Trouble. See Rev 12.

Blessings in your studies,
Frankie

 

[son_flower]

Please explain the use of 1260 days / 42 months / time, times and half a time in the Rev. When are they in regards to us, past or future?

Now explain the same time frames minus the 42 mo increment from Dan. Are they the same point in time as to fulfillment, or are Dan's strictly for 70 AD? If Dan's are for 70AD only, show me documented history for what happened 1260 days post 70 AD.

Thx,
Frankie
PS u can believe Joe who didn't believe, or believe the scriptures.

Trick question: Were the times of the Gentiles fulfilled in 70 AD?

Frankie aren't you the one who said keep these in little bites?

first question 42 months, time times half a time, and 1260 days in Rev.

That depends on the chapter. Rev.12 satan thrown out when Jesus rose from the dead makes it easy to see the time of the womans shelter 1260 days, or time/times/half is the last half of Daniels week from the cross to Stephen.

Rev13 Old covenant Israel beast power to continue 42 months, same time period, the second half of Daniels 70 week until the stoning of stephen. after which satan sets up his seat in rome as stated in Rev1.
The new covenant gentile earth beast (Peter the rock) papal Rome develops and the dark ages erupt then reformations, false prophets of all manner of doctrine still worshiping the first covenant beast to this day.

You keep asking me to show documented history when i believe the AOD mentioned by Jesus in Matt. is Dan.9, when Jesus is cut off, crucified, the temple veil is rent and sacrifice is ceased.
The overspreading of them after such time causes the desolation by God Himself, using the people.
The time of 1260 days is Dan 12 which is a former AOD which even still just so happens to fit using 66.5AD time of the zealots to 70AD. Not after 70AD.

PS: trick answer: No the times of the Gentiles(transgressors)are not finished yet.

 

[chalkstc]

SF.

That depends on the chapter. Rev.12 satan thrown out when Jesus rose from the dead makes it easy to see the time of the womans shelter 1260 days, or time/times/half is the last half of Daniels week from the cross to Stephen.

Satan's first fall was pre-Adam, but he still had access to the heavenlies. See Job.
He is cast out of the heavenlies for good in Rev 12 when Michael stands up. This is future and happens in the last 1260 days of the GT.

Where do you calculate the cross to Stephen as 3 1/2 years?

The time of 1260 days is Dan 12 which is a former AOD which even still just so happens to fit using 66.5AD time of the zealots to 70AD. Not after 70AD.

And just where did you get the 66.5 AD figure from.....................old Joe? If we cannot even place Christ's birth accurately, how do you do the cross to Stephen thing and the zealot thing? 70 AD is the only historic date we have with accuracy. Nothing before it is 100%. Just like you said the Apostles all saw 70 AD. Proof please? Your preterist dogma is based on assumtion imo.

Rev13 Old covenant Israel beast power to continue 42 months, same time period, the second half of Daniels 70 week until the stoning of stephen. after which satan sets up his seat in rome as stated in Rev1.
The new covenant gentile earth beast (Peter the rock) papal Rome develops and the dark ages erupt then reformations, false prophets of all manner of doctrine still worshiping the first covenant beast to this day.

This one is so convuluted, I won't even attempt to unravel it. peter was petros, a little stone. Christ is Petra....the Rock.

The time of 1260 days is Dan 12 which is a former AOD which even still just so happens to fit using 66.5AD time of the zealots to 70AD. Not after 70AD.

You keep missing that Dan 12 is sbout the End of the age after the GT, not the end of the Jewish comodity. I asked you and Lovey about the global endtime versus your 70AD end?

The raising of the dead in Dan 12 also happened 70 AD ish? LOL!

Frankie
PS here is always going to be our problem .................you are some shade of a strict historist or a partial preterist and I am a futurist. You have the majority of prophecy already fulfilled, and I have the GT still to be fulfilled. why? Because Jesus reurns immediately after it............the time of trouble that is worldwide, and not just local in Israel that affected only Jewish believers who were only one generation of church.

And 70 AD did not affect even the 7 churches a few hundred miles away. Sure they were persecuted, but the saints have always been since Cain and Abel.

Frankie

 

[POSTIOS]

Hi again Post and welcome aboard,

You will find many of the pre and post persuasion here.



It goes against many other texts that any group is removed before the GT.

You must do this..........................



Isa 28:9

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 ​

​

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

KJV

In fact, most pretribbers believe it is the Jews who go thru and the Church removed. They say God's elect in Mat 24 are Jews and not Christians.

Of course that is a sham if you follow the term "elect" throughout the NT. also notre that the majority of texts in the OT that I quoted speaks of judgment, gloom and darkness and even one asks "you that look for the DOL.....what will the DOL be for you?" (paraphrase).

But in the NT we find tha saints delivered on the same day as the wicked are judged. This is not a pretrib scenario, for the wicked are not judged during the GT, but after it as a thief in the night, for they are not looking for it as we are. We awake, and they are asleep.



He stands up in the time of trouble.......same as GT and Jacob's Trouble. See Rev 12.

Blessings in your studies,
Frankie
​

Yes I agree. Michael stands up at the end, not 70 AD. That is why I was confused about LovedofHim's reponse.
​

 

[chalkstc]

Post,

Yes I agree. Michael stands up at the end, not 70 AD. That is why I was confused about LovedofHim's reponse.

Did you ever entertain in light of Mike standing up, that he might be the restrainer of 2 TH 2?

Here is an excerpt from a study I did on 2 TH 2..................

And now for the hardest section of our text. Who or what is the restrainer? We don't know! but what we do know, is that the phrase is in the masculine tense in Grk. and therefore is a person or a personality.

Various interpretations:

1) The Holy Spirit

Those of the pretrib. persuasion believe that the church will not even see antichrist and will be removed at the beginning of the 70th week. thus: they say that since the Holy Spirit dwells in the church; when the church is removed, the Holy Spirit will stop restraining antichrist; and seemingly be raptured to Heaven. They have no scriptural evidence for this. Only a belief via circular reasoning.

The Holy Spirit is: a reprover to the world of sin, righteousness and of judgment. see: (Jn 16:8‑11). The Holy Spirit "bade" Paul to go. (Acts 11:12). The Holy Spirit "forbade" Paul to preach the word in Asia. The Holy Spirit convicts, leads, fills, speaks, comforts, teaches, brings the word to our remembrance, and can be grieved but He is never called a restrainer of evil. The other problem with the Holy Spirit being removed, is that He is not bound by space or locality for He is omnipresent. Furthermore, how does anyone get saved during the 70th week without the Holy Spirit, for it is He who baptizes the new convert into the body of Christ. And even pretribbers believe that there will be others saved during that period of time.

2) The Lord

In (Job ch.1) ‑ we find that the Lord built a hedge around His servant to fence out Satan. The word "Lord" here is "Yahwah" or our transliteration ‑ "Jehova". When God removed His restraining hand, then and only then could Satan touch Job and even that was restricted or limited by the Lord. In (Rev 20); an angel restrains or binds Satan in the abyss, forcing the serpent to a prolonged sabbatical.

3) Civil government

Some scholars believe that the laws of the land and those that enforce them, is the restrainer. This could fit the context dealing with iniquity and antichrist being called "the lawless one". Jesus also said: "that because iniquity would abound, the love of many would wax or grow cold”. see: (Mt 24:12). Paul also notes to Timothy that evil men would get worse and worse. Let's just suppose, that if anarchy would erupt world wide, who would hesitate to welcome a messiah who said he could make the "boo boo" better? Although this is conjecture, it is plausible.

4) Michael the archangel

I know what you are thinking, I felt the same way when I heard it. But nevertheless, it just may fit.

Some expositors say that the phrase:

Daniel 12:1 and at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of Thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time Thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Stand up ‑ means to stand still. The Hebrew word is ...Amad. If you were sitting down and was asked to Amad, then you would stand up. But if you were standing up and was asked to Amad, then you would cease your action of standing or restraining and would stand still. If this rendering of the Hebrew phrase is accurate, then this would line up with the battle in the Heavens where Satan and his angels and Michael and his angels fight.

Note the timing is during the second half of the seventieth week or the "Great Trib. or "The Time of Jacob's Trouble". The result of this battle finds Satan the loser and he is cast out of the Heavenlies to the earth. see: (Rev 12) and in (Rev.13), we find John beholding the beast (antichrist) rise up from the sea. This last phrase could mean that he comes from the midst of mankind. The "sea" in many scriptures depicts men.


see: (Isa 57:20) / (Rev 17:15).

‑note: (Rev 13:2) ‑ states that it is at this time, that Satan gives antichrist his power, his seat, and great authority. It is even probable that antichrist is literally possessed by Satan himself. Therefore, "if" Michael is the restraining force, we see at this point in time, that the restraint is removed.

Whoever the restrainer is, is still a dark glass, but the important thing is that there is one. He is much like the flag man in a auto race. He is able to hold back those revving, powerful machines until he drops the flag. But notice, he doesn't leave the race, but simply steps aside or walks off of the track. So also antichrist, has to wait until God gives permission for the restraint to be removed. These are the various views of the restrainer, but remember, we cannot be dogmatic. Paul knew, God knows;.... but we're just not sure.

The rendering of he be taken out of the way is by far, a poor transliteration. For there is no "taken" or "way" in the Grk. Surprised? I was too.

Actual Grk. =
(vs 7) ‑ "for the mystery of lawlessness already is working; only (there is) he who restrains at present until out of (the) midst he be (gone)",
Now we have another puzzle. There are two times that the word "he" is stated. the first "he" is definitely the "restrainer".

But if we read the text without the parenthesis, (for they are not inspired), the second "he" is the one who "rises" out of the midst. This fits well with (Rev 13:1). Read that verse again with this in mind. Let's also note at this time, that the Holy Spirit or the church, are not mentioned or meant in this verse at all. And also, we need to look at the languages that the scriptures were written in to get the fuller and truer flavor of what is being communicated by the Holy Spirit who inspired it to begin with. Take for example the word "mansions" in (Jn 14:2). Many take this word as literally meaning a material house of some kind. But this is simply the word "abode", the same as in (Jn 14:23).

(vs 8) ‑ "and then"
(Grk. = tote) ‑ this means at the same time, shall that wicked (one) be revealed or unveiled so that his true self is exposed. Much like him taking off his mask. We know that he comes on the scene at the beginning of the 70th week as a peacemaker, but in the "midst of the week", see: (Dan 9:27), his play acting is over. This could also be the revealing of the mystery of (vs 7). He will continue for 42 months or 3 1/2 years. (the great trib.) and then Jesus will consume him with the "Spirit of His mouth", (the double edged sword of His word) and shall destroy him (Antichrist) with the "epiphanea" (brightness) of His (Christ's) "parousia". see: ( Dan 8:25)

(vs 9) ‑ "even him whose (parousia) coming".
Paul backtracks here to the "coming" (parousia) of the antichrist which is naturally before the "Coming" of Jesus Christ.

Frankie

 

[yeshuasavedme]

THE DAY OF THE LORD
Cannot Include the Tribulation

Following are nine biblical reasons why the Day of the Lord cannot include the tribulation, as pre‑tribbers claim, but must follow it.

Amo 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.

God's "Day" always begins with "night".
The coming night will be short, but in it there will be no bright shining of the LORD on earth, because the Church will be removed from the midst of the world; and it is the Church in which the Light is dwelling since Jesus sent the Glory on Pentecost.

Amo 5:20 [Shall] not the day of the LORD [be] darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?


But at the end of that "night", the "Sun of Righteousness" will rise over Israel, at the return of the Messiah to Jerusalem to set up His glorious kingdom of God on earth. His Light will be brighter than the sun, when His "Day" dawns over Israel.


Isa 60:1
Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. Isa 60:19
The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.