Doing greater deeds than Jesus?

[ViaCrucis]

If you recall what God told Abraham in Genesis 12:3

I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you

Its the same with Rahab, she was saved because she hid the Jewish spies, Ruth was saved because Boaz married her. Under the Abrahamic covenant, Gentiles must go thru the Jews in order to be blessed.

You recall how Jesus was willing to heal the Roman Centurion servant? Luke 7 tells us

3 The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, 5 because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” 6 So Jesus went with them.


Jesus was sent only to the Jews, thus he also followed that. He had no ministry to the gentiles except for the 2 incidents, and in both of them, it was because they went thru the Jews.

Why are the nations blessed through Abraham?
Hint: It's Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Guojing]

Why are the nations blessed through Abraham?
Hint: It's Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, but during the 4 gospels, Jesus had not died on the cross yet, and Paul has not been saved to reach the Gentiles.

By the Law of Moses, you have to go thru Judaism. Exodus 12:48 and Acts 15:1 made it clear that circumcision, the central feature of Judaism, must be followed by Gentiles.

 

[Bobber]

Well I'll have to suggest something different than most here. It is indeed a different type of work that Jesus didn't do while he was on the earth. What's that? Men weren't truly born again until after Jesus arose from the dead. They had their sins forgiven BUT.....forgiveness of sins is not the same as having your spirit recreated by the Spirit of God that happens in the New Birth...(born again) He did tell Nicodemus what he real need was ....to be born again.....but he was basically telling him what his real problem was. So we in our day have the privilege to administer the word of life where men can be made sons of God. That only became available after Jesus arose from the dead and ascended. They we do a work in the spirit that Jesus couldn't do in his time.

 

[Strong in Him]

Jesus was sent only to the Jews, thus he also followed that. He had no ministry to the gentiles except for the 2 incidents, and in both of them, it was because they went thru the Jews.

When Jesus was born he was visited and worshipped by Gentiles, Matthew 2:1-12.
He spent 2 years living in Egypt, among Gentiles, Matthew 2:13-18. Ok so he wasn't ministering to them, but he lived among them, and who knows what they came to know and believe about him.
As has been said, Jesus healed the servant of a Roman centurion. The men who went to Jesus seemed to believe they had to list the centurion's good works to get Jesus to listen. But it was not the works for the Jews that impressed Jesus, but the Centurion's faith "only say the word, and my servant will be healed." Jesus said he had not found faith like that even in Israel, Luke 7:9. A Gentile showed that faith.
Jesus healed the daughter of a Syro-Phoenician woman; again, she was commended for her great faith, Mark 7:24-30. She did not "go through the Jews"; she approached Jesus herself.
Jesus had a conversation with a woman by a well in Samaria and revealed to her that he was the Messiah, John 4:26. Many Samaritans believed because of her testimony and because they later met Jesus for themselves., John 4:39-42.
In the parable, the man who looked after the injured traveller was a Samaritan, while the Jewish leaders walked past him.
Jesus healed 10 lepers; one of whom was a Samaritan. It was only the Samaritan who returned to thank him, Luke 17:16.

There are many accounts of Jesus healing people where their nationality is not mentioned at all. Jesus healed out of love and compassion, and also taught and showed what God is like. He did not only minister to the Jews and refuse foreigners.

 

[timewerx]

But, my question is: it seems to me no one has really DONE the kind of deeds / works Jesus did, never mind GREATER works.

So what is Jesus saying here? Thoughts?

Jesus meant literally here.

I'm a witness to these manifestations but I'm not at liberty to reveal more info.

Mainstream Christianity will try "water down" the meaning because they have never experienced it due to worldliness

 

[Carl Emerson]

GJing said...

If you recall what God told Abraham in Genesis 12:3

I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you
==============================

me...

Sorry but when this Covenant was made Abraham was not a Jew.

We are also told in Galatians 3 that our line of promise is direct to this covenant and includes the land.

 

[HatGuy]

Yes, but during the 4 gospels, Jesus had not died on the cross yet, and Paul has not been saved to reach the Gentiles.

By the Law of Moses, you have to go thru Judaism. Exodus 12:48 and Acts 15:1 made it clear that circumcision, the central feature of Judaism, must be followed by Gentiles.

Can we not derail this thread with another one about Judaism? We have enough of those.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Back to topic, why not process the first half of this verse first and not ignore it...

All believers do the works Jesus did.

John 14:12 Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing.

Those who don't do His works do not believe.

However Jesus did works of love that weren't miraculous - like blessing the children.

I expect however that a healthy fellowship would exhibit the full range of Jesus works through the gifts He gives including the miraculous.

 

[Guojing]

GJing said...

If you recall what God told Abraham in Genesis 12:3

I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you
==============================

me...

Sorry but when this Covenant was made Abraham was not a Jew.

We are also told in Galatians 3 that our line of promise is direct to this covenant and includes the land.

yes but as I said Jesus has not died yet during the 4 gospels.

we gentiles were excluded from the earthly ministry of Jesus.

abram was chosen by God as the father of Jews so your first point is a trivial objection. There were no Jews before abram

 

[Guojing]

Can we not derail this thread with another one about Judaism? We have enough of those.

but the discussion answers your point, as I have mentioned in my first reply to you

The Jews required signs and wonders, but we don’t. Hence what Jesus said there about greater works was directed to the Jews only.

the book of John was to record the 7 signs of Jesus did to convince the Jews he was their messiah John 20:31.

If you read John 5-7, the works Jesus did were all linked to such signs

 

[Guojing]

When Jesus was born he was visited and worshipped by Gentiles, Matthew 2:1-12.
He spent 2 years living in Egypt, among Gentiles, Matthew 2:13-18. Ok so he wasn't ministering to them, but he lived among them, and who knows what they came to know and believe about him.
As has been said, Jesus healed the servant of a Roman centurion. The men who went to Jesus seemed to believe they had to list the centurion's good works to get Jesus to listen. But it was not the works for the Jews that impressed Jesus, but the Centurion's faith "only say the word, and my servant will be healed." Jesus said he had not found faith like that even in Israel, Luke 7:9. A Gentile showed that faith.
Jesus healed the daughter of a Syro-Phoenician woman; again, she was commended for her great faith, Mark 7:24-30. She did not "go through the Jews"; she approached Jesus herself.
Jesus had a conversation with a woman by a well in Samaria and revealed to her that he was the Messiah, John 4:26. Many Samaritans believed because of her testimony and because they later met Jesus for themselves., John 4:39-42.
In the parable, the man who looked after the injured traveller was a Samaritan, while the Jewish leaders walked past him.
Jesus healed 10 lepers; one of whom was a Samaritan. It was only the Samaritan who returned to thank him, Luke 17:16.

There are many accounts of Jesus healing people where their nationality is not mentioned at all. Jesus healed out of love and compassion, and also taught and showed what God is like. He did not only minister to the Jews and refuse foreigners.

Jesus lived under the law and under the law of Moses, Jews are not to associate with gentiles

samrithians were considered half Jews during the ot days.

so when he told that Canaanite lady about the lost sheep of Israel, you thought he was joking?

 

[Strong in Him]

Jesus lived under the law and under the law of Moses, Jews are not to associate with gentiles

Jews are not supposed to touch dead or bleeding people, or those with skin conditions, but Jesus did.
He said that he had come to fulfil the law and was not chained to it - he healed on the Sabbath and refused to condemn his disciples for not washing their hands as the law required.

samrithians were considered half Jews during the ot days.

But still enemies of the Jews, John 4:9.

so when he told that Canaanite lady about the lost sheep of Israel, you thought he was joking?

No - but the fact is that he associated with Gentiles and taught them. So clearly he did not mean that he had come only to the Jews and no one else.
Jesus associated with Gentiles; fact.

 

[Strong in Him]

abram was chosen by God as the father of Jews so your first point is a trivial objection. There were no Jews before abram

No, Abraham was chosen and called by God, and given a promise that his descendants would be greater in number than the stars in the sky. He was not a Jew - that was one of the points that Stephen made in his speech, Acts of the Apostles 7:2. His grandson, Jacob, became the father of 12 sons who became heads of the 12 tribes of Israel. Jacob's family went to Egypt to buy food in the famine, settled there and were later rescued after Pharaoh began treating them as slaves. At this point they were called Hebrews - the term "Jew" didn't come about until much later.
Yes, Abraham was one of the patriarchs - the promise had been given to him and his descendants. And they eventually settled in the Promised Land which was known as Israel. Yet Abraham was from Mesopotamia - he was not given God's promise because he was a Jew.

 

[timewerx]

Jews are not supposed to touch dead or bleeding people, or those with skin conditions, but Jesus did.

Jesus had protection that's why He had confidence in these things.

There's an underlying reason why you shouldn't touch the dead or bleeding people etc. You can if you have the Lord's protection but if you don't it's dangerous

 

[Paul James]

Hi guys,

In John 14:12, Jesus says this:

"I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these, because I am going to the Father." (NET)

I understand that Him "going to the Father" implies that He will send His Spirit and empower us.

But, my question is: it seems to me no one has really DONE the kind of deeds / works Jesus did, never mind GREATER works.

So what is Jesus saying here? Thoughts?

Go!

I don't think anyone can do actual greater deeds than what Jesus did; but there were some things He didn't do while He was on earth. He didn't establish the Christian church; nor did He directly cause people to be born again. These were deeds done by the Apostles and those who followed in the power of the Holy Spirit. I would say that millions being born again of the Spirit of God, and the Church being established and maintained are greater works than the ones that Jesus did as a human on earth.

 

[Guojing]

No, Abraham was chosen and called by God, and given a promise that his descendants would be greater in number than the stars in the sky. He was not a Jew - that was one of the points that Stephen made in his speech, Acts of the Apostles 7:2. His grandson, Jacob, became the father of 12 sons who became heads of the 12 tribes of Israel. Jacob's family went to Egypt to buy food in the famine, settled there and were later rescued after Pharaoh began treating them as slaves. At this point they were called Hebrews - the term "Jew" didn't come about until much later.
Yes, Abraham was one of the patriarchs - the promise had been given to him and his descendants. And they eventually settled in the Promised Land which was known as Israel. Yet Abraham was from Mesopotamia - he was not given God's promise because he was a Jew.

God chose him out in his grace to father a nation that will eventually be called Israel, people that are from that nation are called Jews.

Of course Abraham was not a Jew, there were no Jews before Abraham. He is their father. I don't see what you are objecting to.

 

[Guojing]

Jews are not supposed to touch dead or bleeding people, or those with skin conditions, but Jesus did.
He said that he had come to fulfil the law and was not chained to it - he healed on the Sabbath and refused to condemn his disciples for not washing their hands as the law required.



But still enemies of the Jews, John 4:9.



No - but the fact is that he associated with Gentiles and taught them. So clearly he did not mean that he had come only to the Jews and no one else.
Jesus associated with Gentiles; fact.

If you disagree that Jesus first coming was for Israel and the Jews, we can agree to disagree.

As I said, many churches preach exclusively from the 4 gospels so I can understand why many would have difficulty accepting what scripture clearly stated, even Paul state the same thing in Romans 15:8

 

[Carl Emerson]

How about we respect the OP and cease to make this thread into a Judaising fest...

 

[Strong in Him]

If you disagree that Jesus first coming was for Israel and the Jews, we can agree to disagree.

He ministered primarily to Jews.
He did not exclude, or refuse to heal, Gentiles.

 

[Strong in Him]

God chose him out in his grace to father a nation that will eventually be called Israel, people that are from that nation are called Jews.

Of course Abraham was not a Jew, there were no Jews before Abraham. He is their father. I don't see what you are objecting to.

I'm objecting to the implication that Jesus was not concerned for Gentiles, or bothered about foreigners.

But this is off topic, so I won't comment any further in this thread.