Does your denomination preach Christ-crucified?

[Tangible]

The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are being saved it is the power of God.

 

[Kobidobidog]

Hello, I'm a Catholic (As my username implies) and I thought like to discuss my biggest issue with Protestantism, it's the phrase "Jesus suffered and died on the cross so that we don't have to suffer."
But Our Lord said:
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." -Matthew 16:24 DRV

What's more Saint Paul says:
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" -Colossians 1:24 DRV
And:
"I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service." -Romans 12:1 DRV This refers specifically to redemptive (AKA "Offering it up") in which we unite our own little sufferings with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, that He may mediate between The Father and us.

We Catholics, except for people who reached a really high degree of holiness, do not actively seek suffering, but when it arises, we take it as an opportunity to unite with Our Lord on the cross. The belief that "Christ suffered so that we don't have to," quite frankly means that Protestants don't preach Christ crucified as Saint Paul commands us to, The Lord's sacrifice on the cross becomes just something that happened almost 2000 years ago, not something that one's entire life revolves around.

So tell me Protestants how is the cross relevant for you? And how do you sense out of suffering? What do you do when suffering arises?

All o09f us would have suffered way more than what we suffer now had Jesus done what devil possessed people wanted Jesus to do all through his life. All would have been lost had Jesus used power in him that set the stars in the universe against his enemies. Jesus did not do a big bang beginning what is. Taking up your cross is this: Evil people will see your good works wanting to crucify you even as they crucified Jesus. Don't see it as a strange thing when people accuse you and condom you.
: Corinthians 2:8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they
known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

[Kobidobidog]

Hello, I'm a Catholic (As my username implies) and I thought like to discuss my biggest issue with Protestantism, it's the phrase "Jesus suffered and died on the cross so that we don't have to suffer."
But Our Lord said:
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." -Matthew 16:24 DRV

What's more Saint Paul says:
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" -Colossians 1:24 DRV
And:
"I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service." -Romans 12:1 DRV This refers specifically to redemptive (AKA "Offering it up") in which we unite our own little sufferings with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, that He may mediate between The Father and us.

We Catholics, except for people who reached a really high degree of holiness, do not actively seek suffering, but when it arises, we take it as an opportunity to unite with Our Lord on the cross. The belief that "Christ suffered so that we don't have to," quite frankly means that Protestants don't preach Christ crucified as Saint Paul commands us to, The Lord's sacrifice on the cross becomes just something that happened almost 2000 years ago, not something that one's entire life revolves around.

So tell me Protestants how is the cross relevant for you? And how do you sense out of suffering? What do you do when suffering arises?

 

[Kobidobidog]

: Corinthians 2:8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they
known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Jesus did not do what evil people wanted him to do. That is why we are saved. Jesus did not use power in him that set the stars in the universe. Jesus who is God visually seen did not do a big bang. Take up your cross following me is this: People who are evil will see your good works wanting to do to you what they wanted to do to Jesus and worse.

 

[enigmadi]

The Word is clear that faith...not works of any kind...is the way of salvation. As for purgatory, where in the Word does it address it?

 

[Thursday]

The Word is clear that faith...not works of any kind...is the way of salvation. As for purgatory, where in the Word does it address it?

Which word?

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Romans 2
6He will render to each one according to his works: 7to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

As to purgatory:

1 Cor 3
12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Luke 12
47“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

 

[Paidiske]

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[JesusLovesOurLady]

We are not "earning our salvation" with Christ in this way. This is clear from the following passages...
Ephesians 2:8-10:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

It's not earning we seek but union, when Our Lord says:

"And whosoever doth not carry his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple."
Luke 14:17 DRV

We all know He's speaking not teaching us how to earn our salvation, He's speaking of something else, what is that? Well the Cross is the holy sacrifice of Our Lord that opens the way to Salvation and but St. Luke in chapter 13:23-24 of his gospel it reads:

"And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them:
Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able."

So the Crucifixion alone doesn't save everyone, in fact it can only save few why? Surely it can't be because the sacrifice is insufficient to save us! It must be because we our failing to accept it? But it's not enough to just believe in the sacrifice of the Cross, Faith without works is dead, why? Well as I said in earlier post, Salvation is analogous to a fish swimming up stream, the fish is in the stream but if it just stays put it will be swept out into the sea, it has to keep swimming up stream. The same is true for our salvation we can't just stay put we can either go forwards or backwards, up or down, if we're not going up to Heaven, we're going down to our Eternal Loss, hence Saint Pater says:

" Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour." -1 Peter 5:8 DRV

And Saint Paul tells us:

"Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation." -Philippians 2:12 DRV

Not to mention Our Lord told us in Luke 13:24 which I quoted earlier to 'STRIVE to enter by the narrow gate!' I'd like to go more into how redemptive suffering about uniting oneself with Christ not earning one's salvation, but I'm worried that my post might be getting to long so I'll end it here.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

Yes I've heard one Protestant say this in the context of an argument against purgatory,
But I've heard many Protestants say this, and as far as I can remember the context was, or at the very least seemed to be in the context of suffering in general. It could be that they just weren't clear when they were talking about suffering.
However my arguments about Protestantism's lack of emphasis on the crucifixion and the problems that cause still stands.

I've just remembered last night that one of the times I heard one of those "Jesus suffered so that we don't suffer" phrases was actually form a non-believer. I was in an Indigenous history class in which we watching a documentary about the Sun dance ceremony, which involve ceremonial piercing which frightened the Europeans. Afterwords one of students started mocking Christianity by saying that the Europeans were probably saying to the natives "Jesus suffered on the Cross so that we don't have to suffer" I'm sorry if that contributed to my misunderstanding that all Protestants think that way. I probably tried to repress that episode to because it was so offensive.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

It's not earning we seek but union, when Our Lord says:

"And whosoever doth not carry his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple."
Luke 14:17 DRV

We all know He's speaking not teaching us how to earn our salvation, He's speaking of something else, what is that? Well the Cross is the holy sacrifice of Our Lord that opens the way to Salvation and but St. Luke in chapter 13:23-24 of his gospel it reads:

"And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them:
Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able."

So the Crucifixion alone doesn't save everyone, in fact it can only save few why? Surely it can't be because the sacrifice is insufficient to save us! It must be because we our failing to accept it? But it's not enough to just believe in the sacrifice of the Cross, Faith without works is dead, why? Well as I said in earlier post, Salvation is analogous to a fish swimming up stream, the fish is in the stream but if it just stays put it will be swept out into the sea, it has to keep swimming up stream. The same is true for our salvation we can't just stay put we can either go forwards or backwards, up or down, if we're not going up to Heaven, we're going down to our Eternal Loss, hence Saint Pater says:

" Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour." -1 Peter 5:8 DRV

And Saint Paul tells us:

"Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation." -Philippians 2:12 DRV

Not to mention Our Lord told us in Luke 13:24 which I quoted earlier to 'STRIVE to enter by the narrow gate!' I'd like to go more into how redemptive suffering about uniting oneself with Christ not earning one's salvation, but I'm worried that my post might be getting to long so I'll end it here.

I agree with all the passages and again this is the Gospel.
You could have gone farther and listed
Philippians 2:1:
Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit...

We are united with Christ upon becoming saved through faith and yes, we do all the necessary striving to fight the sinful nature and sowing to please the Spirit while on earth. We will stumble, we bear the sinful nature until the Resurrection...we are currently unclothed and will be clothed once we are truly united with Christ in death...II Corinthians 5...

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

I agree with all the passages and again this is the Gospel.
You could have gone farther and listed
Philippians 2:1:
Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit...

We are united with Christ upon becoming saved through faith and yes, we do all the necessary striving to fight the sinful nature and sowing to please the Spirit while on earth. We will stumble, we bear the sinful nature until the Resurrection...we are currently unclothed and will be clothed once we are truly united with Christ in death...II Corinthians 5...

Sorry the NIV is wrong, the vast majority of Bible translations don't have "united with Christ." The vast majority of Bible translations, both Catholic and Protestant simply have "in Christ" which makes sense because there are stages of union with Christ, and the first degree is stop sinning. There can be no union with Christ for one who is in mortal sin, mortal sin is spiritual suicide, you kill sanctifying grace in the soul, you are tell the Holy Spirt "GET OUT!" Venial sin doesn't kill the soul but it's insulting to God and increases one's vulnerability to mortal sin. I remember one priest making a great analogy of venial sin, he compared it to a dysfunctional marriage where the spouses were always saying mean-spirited things to each other, but making sure they didn't say anything TOO hurtful, well habitual sin is like that only we're doing it with God.

Now how do all this? First we need to confess our sins and repent of them, then we need to call on the Lord and ask for the grace to be free of the sins, for we can't do it without grace. And finally we need to "offer it up," we all know being free from sin involves suffering, but this is an opportunity to for sanctification, for us to unite ourself with our Lord in His sacrifice on the Cross.

Now what's the highest degree of union with God?

"Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
-Matthew 5:48 DRV

We need to be perfect, Godly (granted we won't be as Godly as our Lady but that's a whole other topic for another time.) How do we do that? By imitating Our Lord for He is the Son of God.

Now granted I can't go into detail into all the other stages of holiness, because I'm still in the first stage and struggling to be free from sin, I live a very filthy life before I reverted to the Catholic faith and so I still have a lot of chains. If anyone wants to look into this further, look up St. Teresa of Avila's Interior Castle, it's a book on the stages of Holiness and much the Catholic view of sanctity is based off of it.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Sorry the NIV is wrong, the vast majority of Bible translations don't have "united with Christ." The vast majority of Bible translations, both Catholic and Protestant simply have "in Christ" which makes sense because there are stages of union with Christ, and the first degree is stop sinning. There can be no union with Christ for one who is in mortal sin, mortal sin is spiritual suicide, you kill sanctifying grace in the soul, you are tell the Holy Spirt "GET OUT!" Venial sin doesn't kill the soul but it's insulting to God and increases one's vulnerability to mortal sin. I remember one priest making a great analogy of venial sin, he compared it to a dysfunctional marriage where the spouses were always saying mean-spirited things to each other, but making sure they didn't say anything TOO hurtful, well habitual sin is like that only we're doing it with God.

Now how do all this? First we need to confess our sins and repent of them, then we need to call on the Lord and ask for the grace to be free of the sins, for we can't do it without grace. And finally we need to "offer it up," we all know being free from sin involves suffering, but this is an opportunity to for sanctification, for us to unite ourself with our Lord in His sacrifice on the Cross.

Now what's the highest degree of union with God?

"Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
-Matthew 5:48 DRV

We need to be perfect, Godly (granted we won't be as Godly as our Lady but that's a whole other topic for another time.) How do we do that? By imitating Our Lord for He is the Son of God.

Now granted I can't go into detail into all the other stages of holiness, because I'm still in the first stage and struggling to be free from sin, I live a very filthy life before I reverted to the Catholic faith and so I still have a lot of chains. If anyone wants to look into this further, look up St. Teresa of Avila's Interior Castle, it's a book on the stages of Holiness and much the Catholic view of sanctity is based off of it.

Well, if we cannot agree on what those passages mean then try I Corinthians 11:13, Ephesians 4:15, Ephesians 5:23, Colossians 1:18, Colossians 2:19...which state that we are a body with Christ as our Head. How can you not be united while yet being one body and Christ our Head? Of course we are united!
The NIV 1984 is an excellent Bible while the Bibles of th Catholic church are of a dubious reliability.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

Well, if we cannot agree on what those passages mean then try I Corinthians 11:13, Ephesians 4:15, Ephesians 5:23, Colossians 1:18, Colossians 2:19...which state that we are a body with Christ as our Head. How can you not be united while yet being one body and Christ our Head? Of course we are united!
The NIV 1984 is an excellent Bible while the Bibles of the Catholic church are of a dubious reliability.

Yes, if you are in a state of Grace, if you are not in a state of mortal sin you are part of the Mystical Body of Christ and if you die in that state you are guaranteed Heaven.
But as Saint Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:15-17:

"Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
Or know you not, that he who is joined to a harlot, is made one body? For they shall be, saith he, two in one flesh.
But he who is joined to the Lord, is one spirit."

Can't be union with both the Mystical Body of Christ and the Mystical Body of Satan, it has to one or the other, and in order to be united to the Mystical Body Christ one needs to be free at least from mortal sin. And like I said before in order to be free from mortal sin and sin in general one must be constantly striving, swimming up the metaphorical stream I mentioned earlier because Satan is constantly prowling as Saint Peter said.

Can you please give me your explanation of Salvation, I feel like we're misunderstanding each other over something, and I realize many Protestant communities differ on their explanation of Salvation.

Finally in regards to Bible versions the KJ21, the ASV, the CEB, the ESV, the GNV, the GNT, the KJV, and the NET, to name few all have "in Christ" not "united with Christ" and these all Protestant translations. I stick with the Douay-Rheims (DRV) the only english translation of the Vulgate written by Saint Jerome who had access to various Jewish scriptures that we no longer posses these days, it agrees, unlike most modern Catholic Bibles with Philo, Josephus, and Moses Maimonides on the translation of a certain verse in The Book of Genesis.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Yes, if you are in a state of Grace, if you are not in a state of mortal sin you are part of the Mystical Body of Christ and if you die in that state you are guaranteed Heaven.
But as Saint Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:15-17:

"Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
Or know you not, that he who is joined to a harlot, is made one body? For they shall be, saith he, two in one flesh.
But he who is joined to the Lord, is one spirit."

Can't be union with both the Mystical Body of Christ and the Mystical Body of Satan, it has to one or the other, and in order to be united to the Mystical Body Christ one needs to be free at least from mortal sin. And like I said before in order to be free from mortal sin and sin in general one must be constantly striving, swimming up the metaphorical stream I mentioned earlier because Satan is constantly prowling as Saint Peter said.

Can you please give me your explanation of Salvation, I feel like we're misunderstanding each other over something, and I realize many Protestant communities differ on their explanation of Salvation.

Finally in regards to Bible versions the KJ21, the ASV, the CEB, the ESV, the GNV, the GNT, the KJV, and the NET, to name few all have "in Christ" not "united with Christ" and these all Protestant translations. I stick with the Douay-Rheims (DRV) the only english translation of the Vulgate written by Saint Jerome who had access to various Jewish scriptures that we no longer posses these days, it agrees, unlike most modern Catholic Bibles with Philo, Josephus, and Moses Maimonides on the translation of a certain verse in The Book of Genesis.

You quoted as follows...
1 Corinthians 6:15-17:

"Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
Or know you not, that he who is joined to a harlot, is made one body? For they shall be, saith he, two in one flesh.
But he who is joined to the Lord, is one spirit."

Who is Paul addressing...the church, the newly formed church. He is instructing them with the wisdom of God on godly living. He says not to unite themselves with prostitutes and explains why. Your bodies are members of Christ if you are truly in Christ. This does not go on to say that one will ever be free of mortal sin this side of heaven as you seem to be advocating...that cannot happen, we have the sinful nature. We are credited with righteousness when we come to Christ by faith and that is a gift of God, by grace.
Romans 8:29-30:
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
As for what I believe regarding salvation...
Salvation comes to us when we are called by God, it is a gift of God through faith by grace. We are credited with righteousness as Romans clearly states. We are to grow up in this faith by doing good to overcome evil (Romans 12:21)...that is fight the sinful nature and sow to please the Spirit. I do not believe in OSAS as do some, but I do not either believe in efforts outside of Scripture nor a series of steps you seem to indicate one is to take to gain righteousness...that is not laid out for us in Scripture and as such is not spiritual.
Live by the Scriptures...and I do not mean the Catholic scriptures.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

You quoted as follows...
1 Corinthians 6:15-17:

"Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
Or know you not, that he who is joined to a harlot, is made one body? For they shall be, saith he, two in one flesh.
But he who is joined to the Lord, is one spirit."

Who is Paul addressing...the church, the newly formed church. He is instructing them with the wisdom of God on godly living. He says not to unite themselves with prostitutes and explains why. Your bodies are members of Christ if you are truly in Christ. This does not go on to say that one will ever be free of mortal sin this side of heaven as you seem to be advocating...that cannot happen, we have the sinful nature. We are credited with righteousness when we come to Christ by faith and that is a gift of God, by grace.
Romans 8:29-30:
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
As for what I believe regarding salvation...
Salvation comes to us when we are called by God, it is a gift of God through faith by grace. We are credited with righteousness as Romans clearly states. We are to grow up in this faith by doing good to overcome evil (Romans 12:21)...that is fight the sinful nature and sow to please the Spirit. I do not believe in OSAS as do some, but I do not either believe in efforts outside of Scripture nor a series of steps you seem to indicate one is to take to gain righteousness...that is not laid out for us in Scripture and as such is not spiritual.
Live by the Scriptures...and I do not mean the Catholic scriptures.

I am not talking about gaining righteousness. Salvation is a gift from God which no one earns, all one has to do to be saved as to as say "fiat" as she said it, how you do that (baptism and/or confession) is another topic that we may or may not get into. Once one is in that state of grace Heaven is guaranteed unless one falls into mortal sin, which you essentially agree with. The problem is that one needs grace in order to be free from falling, thus we turn to the Lord and ask for His grace to be free from sin, and He will answer:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity,
Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's, have crucified their flesh, with the vices and concupiscences.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
Galatians 5:22-25 DRV

Again as long as one said yes to The Lord's primary gift of being in a state of Grace and has taken the first step inside the Mystical Body of Christ one is guaranteed Salvation provided that he/she sins no more, once one sins one loses Salvation and needs to repent. But once one has been saved and has begun the process of sanctification, if that person dies anywhere along that path Heaven is guaranteed. But notice how Saint Paul refers to the above virtues as fruit, we need to GROW in Salvation if we to make it assured, otherwise we will fall, the purpose of growing in sanctity and being freed from sin is not to gain Salvation but to make it assured. And Saint Paul proves that this can be done when after saying:

For that which I work, I understand not. For I do not that good which I will; but the evil which I hate, that I do.

"If then I do that which I will not, I consent to the law, that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
For I know that there dwelleth not in me, that is to say, in my flesh, that which is good. For to will, is present with me; but to accomplish that which is good, I find not.
For the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do.
Now if I do that which I will not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." - Romans 7:15-20 DRV

And:

"Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain.
And every one that striveth for the mastery, refraineth himself from all things: and they indeed that they may receive a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible one.
I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air:
But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway." - 1 Corinthians 9:23-27 DRV

He says:

"For I am even now ready to be sacrificed: and the time of my dissolution is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith.
As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming. Make haste to come to me quickly." - 2 Timothy 4:6-8 DRV

Why would Our Lord say "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect." if such a state isn't possible?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Once one is in that state of grace Heaven is guaranteed unless one falls into mortal sin, which you essentially agree with.

I do not agree with the statement you made, quoted above. Even King David fell into sin...He essentially took the life of Uriah, the husband of Bathsheba. With or without grace we may fall if we aren't careful enough. Also, I disagree with your usage of the word "grace" there. Grace is undeserved love and forgiveness and it does not keep one from falling in the classical sense of those words. You may say it keeps us from a total falling away and then only because grace is there to restore us when we fall...just as God extended mercy and grace to King David when he fell into that horrible sin.

You asked the following...
Why would Our Lord say "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect." if such a state isn't possible?

Because the gives us more grace for those sins we repent of and that leaves us clean; cleansed of all our guilt and once again perfect in His eyes. He knows our hearts and He knows our efforts.
God remembers we are only dust and cast our sin far from us at time of repentance...as far as the East is from the West.
Psalm 103:8-18:
The Lord is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.
9 He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

13 As a father has compassion on his children,
so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him;
14 for he knows how we are formed,
he remembers that we are dust.
15 The life of mortals is like grass,
they flourish like a flower of the field;
16 the wind blows over it and it is gone,
and its place remembers it no more.
17 But from everlasting to everlasting
the Lord’s love is with those who fear him,
and his righteousness with their children’s children—
18 with those who keep his covenant
and remember to obey his precepts.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

I do not agree with the statement you made, quoted above. Even King David fell into sin...He essentially took the life of Uriah, the husband of Bathsheba. With or without grace we may fall if we aren't careful enough. Also, I disagree with your usage of the word "grace" there. Grace is undeserved love and forgiveness and it does not keep one from falling in the classical sense of those words. You may say it keeps us from a total falling away and then only because grace is there to restore us when we fall...just as God extended mercy and grace to King David when he fell into that horrible sin.

I am not saying, that one will ever be free from the danger of falling, even someone at the highest state is in danger of falling. I'm saying it becomes harder to sin the more one becomes united with Christ, for one sees just how evil and atrocious sin is. I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with me in that quote, I'm saying that once one accepts the supernatural grace that God offers him or her that if that person dies at any point after that initial acceptance that person is saved. If on the other hand that person commits a mortal sin, that person is rejecting the grace that God has given him/her if that person dies before returning to God and begging to receive that grace again that person will be lost. Also David lived in the Old Testament times, during the Old Covenant, the saints of the Old Covenant are not the same as the Saints of the New Covenant although they both draw grace from the same source, the Cross. Some of the laws of the Old Covenant were much more lax than those of the New Covenant:

"They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away?
He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.
His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry." - Matthew 19:7-10 DRV

If you believe in a literal interpretation of this verse, that marriage is indissoluble and divorce and remarriage is an inexcusably grave offense against God, you will be better than the many Judas Iscariots who in the Catholic Hierarchy in these Dark Times.

In regards to Psalm 103 and sanctification I'll get to that later, I have a lot college work to do so my replies will be slow in coming.

 

[Monk Brendan]

He's not on the cross anymore.

We know. But we are called to take all our trials and suffering to the Cross, so that it may be sanctified by the same Jesus that hung on that Cross, so that we can allow God to use it in our lives.